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  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post
    At the very least, the sex between the Amazons and the sailors is non-consensual. There is NO informed consent happening, here. No man of sound mind, given a choice, is having sex with a woman, who wants to steal his love-juice, hack off his nuts, KILL HIM and dump his lifeless body in the ocean! Don't even try telling me the sailors in this story consented to that.

    The sex in this story is non-consensual, at the least. Rape, at the most.
    The men consent to having sex with strange women who board their ship. They don't know these women, and by deciding to have sex with them, they take a risk. They don't consent to what happens afterwards, but valid consent to sex doesn't require consent to everything that will follow sex. So, the sex is consensual; it's not rape.
    Last edited by slvn; 07-06-2013 at 05:33 PM.

  2. #227

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    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post
    At the very least, the sex between the Amazons and the sailors is non-consensual. There is NO informed consent happening, here. No man of sound mind, given a choice, is having sex with a woman, who wants to steal his love-juice, hack off his nuts, KILL HIM and dump his lifeless body in the ocean! Don't even try telling me the sailors in this story consented to that.

    The sex in this story is non-consensual, at the least. Rape, at the most.
    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    The men consent to having sex with strange women who board their ship. They don't consent to what happens afterwards, but that doesn't make the sex rape--or even non-consensual.
    Was it rape, wasn't it? We debated it already and the general consensus was that it wasn't. BUT... some other ideas.

    Now we don't know what happened to those who did not consent to having sex with them - were they coerced in some way - no idea? Did the Amazons use magic to ensure that the men would all comply to their wishes - we don't know. And what happened to the men that were lets say less attractive to them - were they ignored and let in a dark corner to watch the orgy?

    This whole climbing aboard ship in the sea to have sex is ridiculous - it is such a ridiculous idea that it really makes no sense whats so ever. Not only do you have to have enough Amazons to occupy everyone aboard ship you have to have enough of them on guard just in case - after all climbing aboard a vessel at sea makes sailors think pirates, so how do you avoid all the unnecessary ugliness before the orgy starts?

    And if you looked that the picture that was a steam ship at the very least - it has metal hulls - how do you sink the thing without explosives - an axe to the hull won't sink a ship - and yes the Amazons would have to get rid of the ship as well as the men - and the odd thing is that if you don't weigh the men down so they sink they might be found - since this is not the ocean its the Mediterranean Sea and has to be close enough to Paradise Island so that they can paddle their canoes out into the sea, and how did they find these ships in the first place, but I digress....

    Back to the sailors - I have no idea what BA is implying when he shows that it seems all the sailors consented to have sex - even if they were without sex and women for months at a time - the absurdity of the naked women climbing aboard ship in the middle of the sea is crazy - at the very least the higher ranked sailors should maybe have thought it was a distraction for some other unknown plot; plus BA seems to imply that these sailors are so sex starved that they can't control themselves when naked women come aboard is just crazy - this is the Mediterranean Sea how far is the next port even if you were on a sailing vessel - a day, two days, a week away - not too far.

    If the Amazons used either a chemical agent or a magical spell to induce compliance for sex, and this is a possibility, then it is no longer consensual sex - it becomes rape.
    Last edited by magisensei; 07-06-2013 at 04:42 PM.

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post
    At the very least, the sex between the Amazons and the sailors is non-consensual. There is NO informed consent happening, here. No man of sound mind, given a choice, is having sex with a woman, who wants to steal his love-juice, hack off his nuts, KILL HIM and dump his lifeless body in the ocean! Don't even try telling me the sailors in this story consented to that.

    The sex in this story is non-consensual, at the least. Rape, at the most.
    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    The men consent to having sex with strange women who board their ship. They don't know these women, and by deciding to have sex with them, they take a risk. They don't consent to what happens afterwards, but valid consent to sex doesn't require consent to everything that will follow sex.
    So we are saying this is rape?



    No, that's not rape. Sleazy to be sure, but not rape.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  4. #229
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Actually, what the Amazons did is more like this...



    The naked man - works 2 out of 3 times.

    Though I honestly I suspect the naked super-hot Amazons has an even higher success rate.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by magisensei View Post
    Was it rape, wasn't it? We debated it already and the general consensus was that it wasn't. BUT... so other ideas.

    Now we don't know what happened to those who did not consent to having sex with them - were they coerced in some way - no idea? Did the Amazons use magic to ensure that the men would all comply to their wishes - we don't know. And what happened to the men that were lets say less attractive to them - were they ignored and let in a dark corner to watch the orgy?

    This whole climbing aboard ship in the sea to have sex is ridiculous - it is such a stupid idea that it really makes no sense whats so ever. Not only do you have to have enough Amazons to occupy everyone aboard ship you have to have enough of them on guard just in case - after all climbing aboard a vessel at sea makes sailors think pirates - so how do you avoid all the unnecessary ugliness before the orgy starts?

    And if looked that the picture that was a steam ship at the very least - it has metal hulls - how do you sink the thing without explosives - an axe to the hull won't sink a ship - and yes the Amazons would have to get rid of the ship as well as the men - and the odd thing is that if you don't weigh the men down so they sink they might be found - since this is not the ocean its the Mediterranean Sea and has to be close enough to Paradise Island so that they can paddle their canoes out into the sea but I digress....

    Back to the sailors - I have no idea what BA is implying when he shows that it seems all the sailors consented to have sex - even if they were without sex and women for months at a time - the absurdity of the naked women climbing aboard ship in the middle of the sea is crazy - at the very least the higher ranked sailors should maybe have thought it was a distraction for some other unknown plot; plus BA seems to imply that these sailors are so sex starved that they can't control themselves when naked women come aboard is just crazy - this is the Mediterranean Sea how far is the next port even if you were on a sailing vessel - a day, two days, a week away - not too far.
    I read it like a would read a sailor's tall tale or a myth--like Heracles taking the heaven from Atlas and resting them upon his shoulders. If you try too hard to figure out how such a thing would be possible in our reality, you run the risk of killing the myth. I don't mean we're not supposed to accept that the raids happened; I just mean that the story of the raids is not a realistic story, and scrutinizing it as if it were supposed to be realistic doesn't might not be the best way to read it, if you want to enjoy it.

    That said, of course we can use our imaginations to think about how the gaps could be filled in.

    If the Amazons used either a chemical agent or a magical spell to induce compliance for sex, and this is a possibility, then it is no longer consensual sex - it becomes rape.
    It may be a possibility. It may also be a possibility, as I've said before, that the men have been killed by something other than the Amazons (i.e., a deity or other supernatural force). ( Heph uses a passive construction, "their lives drained from them," with no subject, instead of saying something like "Then, the Amazons drained the lives from them.") But so far there's no evidence in the text that either of these possibilities is what happened. The possibility that I pointed is a real longshot; but i think that Azzarello revealing that the Amazons used a chemical agent or magical spell to induce compliance is probably at least as big a longshot.

    Why? Because Azzarello has already torn down the Amazons, as part of the plan, which he acknowledged in an interview. of tearing down Diana's world to build it back up again. Maybe he still has some tearing down to do it order areas, but piling on additional highly incriminating aspects of the raids would just seem redundant; it would lack drama, or, if you prefer to put it this way, it would lack shock value. At this point, a plot twist that mitigates the Amazons' guilt could be more shocking, dramatic or just plain interesting than another count in the indictment against them. I think Azz ultimately wants to build the Amazons back up, not to anywhere near the point where anyone would call them flawless, but to the point where they will once again be usable characters.
    Last edited by slvn; 07-07-2013 at 04:48 AM.

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    So we are saying this is rape?
    Brett, it looked like you were responding to me there instead of just Mel. Maybe you just left a quotation but from me in by mistake, but, just in case--no, I was saying it's not rape.

    Consensual sex means that both parties consent to sex. It doesn't mean that each party knows about and consents to what the other party will do five minutes or an hour or the morning after sex. If they plan to do something bad after sex, that's not OK; it's just not rape. So, I think we agree.
    Last edited by slvn; 07-06-2013 at 05:36 PM.

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Brett, it looked like you were responding to me there instead of just Mel. Maybe you just left a quotation but from me in by mistake, but, just in case--no, I was saying it's not rape.

    Consensual sex means that both parties consent to sex. It doesn't mean that each party knows about and consents to what the other party will do five minutes or an hour or the morning after sex. If they plan to do something bad after sex, that's not OK; it's just not rape. So, I think we agree.
    Sorry Slvn - I included your quote by way of agreement, you are correct.

    If a wife has sex with her husband by consent in order to keep him distracted while her accomplice poisons his food, that is premeditated murder but not rape.

    Barney is sleazy, but not a rapist.
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
    Irene: “Twice.”


  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post
    At the very least, the sex between the Amazons and the sailors is non-consensual. There is NO informed consent happening, here. No man of sound mind, given a choice, is having sex with a woman, who wants to steal his love-juice, hack off his nuts, KILL HIM and dump his lifeless body in the ocean! Don't even try telling me the sailors in this story consented to that.

    The sex in this story is non-consensual, at the least. Rape, at the most.
    Two separate things you keep mixing up.

    Do they want to have sex?

    Do they want to be murdered?

    Answer to the first is 'yes.' Therefore, it is not rape.

    Answer to the second is 'no.' Murder in the first degree.

    You keep saying the sex wasn't consensual. There is absolutely nothing on that page that says it was not fully consensual.

    I agree that this is a dumb idea that doesn't hold up to any scrutiny whatsoever, but then again, this is a superhero book where guys run around in tights and Batman is now bulletproof, so to say that sailors sleep with naked random women who row up to their ships?

    That's nothing in a world where a guy used to drink something that would make him stretch, an alien can bench press the weight of the world, and the Flash can break the sound barrier many times over without leaving a ton of damage in his wake.

    Basic idea here - Amazons strip, board ships, seduce men into willingly sleeping with them.

    Afterwards, they kill them.

    There is nothing that is said about what happens to men who do not consent or who are not bedded by Amazons, let alone anything that claims they were taken by force or by magic or by anything other than 'hello, sailor, wanna have a good time?'

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