View Poll Results: Should a WW Film be "dark and gritty"?

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  • Yes! Bring her into the movie making style of today!

    36 76.60%
  • No! Try to revitalize the old style, as in "Superman Returns"

    11 23.40%
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  1. #76

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    It's not "if", it's "when".
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  2. #77
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    I don't get it. Superman got Nolanised, and he's still a Kryptonian alien who gets insane superpowers from being on earth and wears a blue supersuit with a red cape and pretends to be Clark Kent in his free time.
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  3. #78
    The Great Curator Mr. Mastermind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Man From Room X View Post
    It's not "if", it's "when".
    That would mean a WW movie would be made, and that's pretty much never going ot happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    When the choices are "Superman Returns" and anything else, it's a no-brainer.
    Agreed, but I really have no interest in the first option.

    If audiences don't care about a nostalgic remake of one the biggest and best movies ever made, they sure as hell won't care about Lynda Carter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Mask View Post
    Whatever the Man of Steel may have done was in the name of Peace and Sanity.

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    If only Moffat wrote Man of Steel. It would have been less depressing, and Lois would have been a funnier plot device.
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  4. #79
    Senior Member ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    Interesting, I didn't really think it was that slanted.. at least it wasn't my intention anyway. I still think that if TDKR would've been made by someone else it would've probably ended up feeling a bit bland, like Superman Returns.

    MOS caused a stir mostly because it presented Superman in a less-than-Reeves-Golden Agey-movie style. I can tell you in all certainty that if I would've seen another Lex Luthor character with another blonde-bimbo assistant I would've walked out right then and there.

    I'm not sure exactly why the "grounded" approach would only work for "DC's movies". Granted, Avengers and Thors and Iron Man movies weren't like that and they worked, but there's also the possibility that such style would also work for Marvel.

    Green Lantern wasn't Dark and Gritty, and it failed... although admittedly I don't really think that was the deciding factor as to why it didn't exactly work.

    But as for Wonder Woman: It's tough. The bulk of the millions that a movie takes-in at the box office is not clocked by the comic book fans. The majority of the money is raked-in by your typical Saturday Night film-goers...whom I will also venture to guess haven't really seen anything in the way of live-action unless it was via Cable television and that would only be Lynda Carter. A modern movie would need to find a balance of greek mythology yet not give the public something SO unrecognizable that it will leave them going "huh?"

    Lynda's Wonder Woman is something that is SO encrypted in most people's memories (again, non comic readers) that I wouldn't even know how to begin trying to develop a script, or even less.. producing the film.

    Glad it's not MY job!
    Oh, the grounded approach isnt a DC only thing, its just the formula WB has found that seems to work the best for them. Marvel on the other hand has ended up relying on humor. Which I think is a wonderful contrast.

    When Iron Man came out in 08, Incredible Hulk came out the same summer, but it had a much more "real" "Nolan" style tone and story. At least I think so; it didnt rely on humor and treated the material quite seriously and tried to keep the setting as "normal" as possible. And it didnt do nearly as well as Iron Man (though I myself really enjoyed it). I think Marvel purposefully made the two films feel very different so they could measure which approach to use. And the rest is history. I think if Marvel tried the serious approach they could do it and make it work, absolutely. They just seem content to (largely) stick with what has been proven to work.

    Totally agree that if MoS had been another Reeves clone I would have left. I loved those movies but its time to leave them in the past and move on.

    As for Wonder Woman, I too have no idea how I would prepare a treatment for her. Im glad its not up to me.

  5. #80
    The Mad Artist RMAN63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ascended View Post
    Oh, the grounded approach isnt a DC only thing, its just the formula WB has found that seems to work the best for them. Marvel on the other hand has ended up relying on humor. Which I think is a wonderful contrast.

    When Iron Man came out in 08, Incredible Hulk came out the same summer, but it had a much more "real" "Nolan" style tone and story. At least I think so; it didnt rely on humor and treated the material quite seriously and tried to keep the setting as "normal" as possible. And it didnt do nearly as well as Iron Man (though I myself really enjoyed it). I think Marvel purposefully made the two films feel very different so they could measure which approach to use. And the rest is history. I think if Marvel tried the serious approach they could do it and make it work, absolutely. They just seem content to (largely) stick with what has been proven to work.

    Totally agree that if MoS had been another Reeves clone I would have left. I loved those movies but its time to leave them in the past and move on.

    As for Wonder Woman, I too have no idea how I would prepare a treatment for her. Im glad its not up to me.
    Personally, I think their usual reply of "we want to get it right" is sounding more and more reasonable to me. It's very easy for US to sit here and come up with perfectly logical plot ideas that work within the confines of what is going on in the comics today but again.. WE are not the ones who will make the film fail or become a cash-cow. It's the vastly larger audience. At the same time, however.. we can't have a 1975 re-make.

    Yes.. it was positively glorious to watch Lynda Carter's wonder-spin etc and what we consider to be "formulaic" and "campy" was actually fresh and new back then in 1975, where it belongs.

    And.. an UNRELATED after thought: The actual 1975 ABC Pilot film for the 1940's Wonder Woman was indeed "campy" by today's standards as it relates to certain scenes, but it was actually an intense recreation of the comics that came before and it had some elements in it that would even work today. Can't say the same regarding anything beyond the first couple of episodes of subsequent seasons. Nice to look at, but shortly thereafter it became the "Lynda Carter Dressed as Wonder Woman" TV Show.

  6. #81
    Senior Member Blacksun's Avatar
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    it's not a easy job figure out WW for tv or big screen, but it shouldn't be so hard too. Problem is that WW doesn't fit their expectaions of a hero, aka she isn't a man. There's already many failures and successes to know what work and what doesn't work.




    by kate beaton
    Last edited by Blacksun; 11-28-2013 at 02:35 PM.

  7. #82
    Senior Member ascended's Avatar
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    You know, Im starting to think the "she's a woman" thing isnt really in play after all.

    I used to agree with everyone who said that Diana's biggest obstacle in larger media was her sex. I've said it myself several times. And I think there is still a stigma in Hollywood about action movies with female leads. Successful ones are few and far between after all.

    But now? I think Diana being a woman is less of a factor than the rest of her mythos. We've had several successful action movies over the last few years that either feature a female lead (Hunger Games, Kill Bill, that City of the Dead or whatever it is) or female supporting characters who were in the thick of the action (Sif, Black Widow, Faora, Herminone Granger,). Even the suits at the top of WB, who are certainly slow to catch up with the rest of the world, must have realized that it can be done and done well.

    And we know for a fact that a Wonder Woman project is almost always in development somewhere. David E Kelly dropped the ball, and then the CW picked it up, and those are just the latest attempts, and not including any rumors. So we know WB/DC/Hollywood is and has been trying to get Wonder Woman out there. At this point, they've spent a ton of money and have nothing to show for it, but they're still trying and spending even more money on more attempts. You dont do that unless you believe in the property.

    I think the biggest problem with getting Diana out there is that WB just doesnt get her character. She's a complex being, much moreso than her peers like Superman and Batman. Keep in mind, WB can barely get these two done correctly and they're far more simplistic than Diana is. Her story is based in mythology, rooted in politics and feminism, all wrapped up in a superhero's costume. She has no long lasting status quo, love interest, or even home town. Her fanbase is fractured and cant agree on what constitutes a good run in the comics (much moreso than many other franchises, with some obvious exceptions coughcoughX-Mencoughcough).

    I think its those things that are keeping Diana out of television and movies. No one has managed to figure her out yet. I think that's the biggest issue. Her being a woman certainly doesnt help, as that stigma still exists, but I think those of us crying "sexists!" have it (largely) wrong.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by ascended View Post
    You know, Im starting to think the "she's a woman" thing isnt really in play after all.

    I used to agree with everyone who said that Diana's biggest obstacle in larger media was her sex. I've said it myself several times. And I think there is still a stigma in Hollywood about action movies with female leads. Successful ones are few and far between after all.

    But now? I think Diana being a woman is less of a factor than the rest of her mythos. We've had several successful action movies over the last few years that either feature a female lead (Hunger Games, Kill Bill, that City of the Dead or whatever it is) or female supporting characters who were in the thick of the action (Sif, Black Widow, Faora, Herminone Granger,). Even the suits at the top of WB, who are certainly slow to catch up with the rest of the world, must have realized that it can be done and done well.

    And we know for a fact that a Wonder Woman project is almost always in development somewhere. David E Kelly dropped the ball, and then the CW picked it up, and those are just the latest attempts, and not including any rumors. So we know WB/DC/Hollywood is and has been trying to get Wonder Woman out there. At this point, they've spent a ton of money and have nothing to show for it, but they're still trying and spending even more money on more attempts. You dont do that unless you believe in the property.

    I think the biggest problem with getting Diana out there is that WB just doesnt get her character. She's a complex being, much moreso than her peers like Superman and Batman. Keep in mind, WB can barely get these two done correctly and they're far more simplistic than Diana is. Her story is based in mythology, rooted in politics and feminism, all wrapped up in a superhero's costume. She has no long lasting status quo, love interest, or even home town. Her fanbase is fractured and cant agree on what constitutes a good run in the comics (much moreso than many other franchises, with some obvious exceptions coughcoughX-Mencoughcough).

    I think its those things that are keeping Diana out of television and movies. No one has managed to figure her out yet. I think that's the biggest issue. Her being a woman certainly doesnt help, as that stigma still exists, but I think those of us crying "sexists!" have it (largely) wrong.

    Excellent post. I think some times we fans need to take a step back and remember that sometimes it's Hollywood politics or just circumstance that delays movies from being made. It's not always even problematic source material, as we all know Hollywood has no issue with changing things when it suits their needs. I'm not saying that there's no racism or sexism is mainstream Hollywood, but that there's all kinds other behind the scenes issues that are involved.

    I ran across an article recently that talked about a film based on Vampirella that was going to be made by Hammer Films back in the mid-70's. They had a script and a leading lady but the investors changed their minds because they wanted a big American star to carry the film.

    There's been a live action version of Akira stuck in development for 10 years. They even had Leo DiCaprio involved. But every time the casting rumors start, the project stalls.

    And I think many of us are familiar with the infamous Superman Lives/Tim Burton Superman debacle...


    My point isn't that those characters are similar to WW, but that it's the behind the scenes deals that killed/stalled the movies. Not so much the complexity of the source material.

  9. #84
    Senior Member SNascimento's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ascended View Post
    You know, Im starting to think the "she's a woman" thing isnt really in play after all.
    Nah, it's just that.

    They just don't want to take the risk. It's simple as that. If they think it would make money, they would have already done it, ignoring a lot of the source material if needed be.
    "Perfection... sometimes it's our worst enemy. I tried to be perfect once... decided to just try to be better. Found a good way to start that... is by accepting who you are."

  10. #85

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    No! She needs her magic and love!
    I'm a bumblebee. I'm a bee and I need to get back to the hive.

  11. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by ascended View Post
    You know, Im starting to think the "she's a woman" thing isnt really in play after all.

    I used to agree with everyone who said that Diana's biggest obstacle in larger media was her sex. I've said it myself several times. And I think there is still a stigma in Hollywood about action movies with female leads. Successful ones are few and far between after all.

    But now? I think Diana being a woman is less of a factor than the rest of her mythos. We've had several successful action movies over the last few years that either feature a female lead (Hunger Games, Kill Bill, that City of the Dead or whatever it is) or female supporting characters who were in the thick of the action (Sif, Black Widow, Faora, Herminone Granger,). Even the suits at the top of WB, who are certainly slow to catch up with the rest of the world, must have realized that it can be done and done well.

    And we know for a fact that a Wonder Woman project is almost always in development somewhere. David E Kelly dropped the ball, and then the CW picked it up, and those are just the latest attempts, and not including any rumors. So we know WB/DC/Hollywood is and has been trying to get Wonder Woman out there. At this point, they've spent a ton of money and have nothing to show for it, but they're still trying and spending even more money on more attempts. You dont do that unless you believe in the property.

    I think the biggest problem with getting Diana out there is that WB just doesnt get her character. She's a complex being, much moreso than her peers like Superman and Batman. Keep in mind, WB can barely get these two done correctly and they're far more simplistic than Diana is. Her story is based in mythology, rooted in politics and feminism, all wrapped up in a superhero's costume. She has no long lasting status quo, love interest, or even home town. Her fanbase is fractured and cant agree on what constitutes a good run in the comics (much moreso than many other franchises, with some obvious exceptions coughcoughX-Mencoughcough).

    I think its those things that are keeping Diana out of television and movies. No one has managed to figure her out yet. I think that's the biggest issue. Her being a woman certainly doesnt help, as that stigma still exists, but I think those of us crying "sexists!" have it (largely) wrong.
    Nice post, Ascended.

    I agree, but only to a degree. WW being female is not the only reason she doesn't have a movie yet. As Ed points out, many male characters also get caught up on development #### for various reasons. And I don't think WW is the easiest character to adapt. But, when I ask myself, would WB have this much trouble with similar mythology if the character was male, well, I can't help but laugh and agree with the cartoon Blacksun posted. ;)

    It doesn't help that DC themselves doesn't have anyone inhouse that really "gets" WW. DiDio, Lee, Johns, Harras - they seem to get that WW is important, and i think they respect that. But, imo, none of them ever seem to really get and connect to the character.

    Green Lantern bombing seems to have made them even more gun-shy. And Diane Nelson (and presumably others at WB) seems bothered that WW doesn't have that singular "it" story that you can pass around the table for very one to see what kind of movie it could be.

    It's going to take a little more work than some characters, but I don't think it's as hard as they seem to make it either. Hopefully, someday, they'll get there.
    Last edited by americanwonder; 11-28-2013 at 09:58 PM.
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  12. #87
    Senior Member ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Nice post, Ascended.

    I agree, but only to a degree. WW being female is not the only reason she doesn't have a movie yet. As Ed points out, many male characters also get caught up on development #### for various reasons. And I don't think WW is the easiest character to adapt. But, when I ask myself, would WB have this much trouble with similar mythology if the character was male, well, I can't help but laugh and agree with the cartoon Blacksun posted. ;)

    It doesn't help that DC themselves doesn't have anyone inhouse that really "gets" WW. DiDio, Lee, Johns, Harras - they seem to get that WW is important, and i think they respect that. But, imo, none of them ever seem to really get and connect to the character.

    Green Lantern bombing seems to have made them even more gun-shy. And Diane Nelson (and presumably others at WB) seems bothered that WW doesn't have that singular "it" story that you can pass around the table for very one to see what kind of movie it could be.

    It's going to take a little more work than some characters, but I don't think it's as hard as they seem to make it either. Hopefully, someday, they'll get there.
    I think they'll get there. She's such a well known commodity and they've spent so much time trying to get her off the ground. Its just finding that right touch I think.

    I do think that her being a woman is part of the problem, like I said. I just dont think its the biggest one. Not anymore at least.

  13. #88
    Senior Member Blacksun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Nice post, Ascended.

    I agree, but only to a degree. WW being female is not the only reason she doesn't have a movie yet. As Ed points out, many male characters also get caught up on development #### for various reasons. And I don't think WW is the easiest character to adapt. But, when I ask myself, would WB have this much trouble with similar mythology if the character was male, well, I can't help but laugh and agree with the cartoon Blacksun posted. ;)

    It doesn't help that DC themselves doesn't have anyone inhouse that really "gets" WW. DiDio, Lee, Johns, Harras - they seem to get that WW is important, and i think they respect that. But, imo, none of them ever seem to really get and connect to the character.

    Green Lantern bombing seems to have made them even more gun-shy. And Diane Nelson (and presumably others at WB) seems bothered that WW doesn't have that singular "it" story that you can pass around the table for very one to see what kind of movie it could be.

    It's going to take a little more work than some characters, but I don't think it's as hard as they seem to make it either. Hopefully, someday, they'll get there.
    Well Diana Nelson was the same that greenlit the change on WW origin, a thing that was well known for many people ( anyone who watched JL cartoon or the animated movie from 2009). If Azzarello was the "it" story they screwed up part of it, the part of love interest that is obligatory to movies.
    She has a love interest, the problem is DC work that.

    a hero that is a long time on production is deadpool, but look: ryan reynolds, deadpool (who is deadpool compared to WW, I like him but we can't compare the two) and is a adult movie +18.

    Bryan Q. Miller did a good job mixing all WW in smallville.

    The problem still is Female heroes, few movies were done and it's almost 10 years since the last. Marvel probaly will take the lead, well they already took the lead with Jessica Jones for Netflix, and agent carter can be a tv series too. let's see if they can do something with female lead for big screen.
    Last edited by Blacksun; 11-29-2013 at 10:39 AM.

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