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  1. #31
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    I enjoy the series. I can not tell exactly why but I do. So I stick with it.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shimarenda View Post
    It's a framing device, which allows the writer to comment on the action that takes place in the flashbacks. It is also a smart choice here since Gail Simone is at her best when her characters can talk to other people; to have Babs talking to herself about her guilt during the event of the flashbacks would have been forced and less believable because she would have had even less time to reflect on her feelings. By having her talk to someone to whom she can't tell the entire truth makes her isolation much more apparent.
    The thing is that an issue dealing with what happened would have felt as it flowed better; the flashbacks coupled with the barging into the therapist room while crying feels jarring and a bit off.

    What should have happened in this issue:

    I would have liked to see in this issue her dragging herself out of the river and dealing with the issue after ripping off her costume and throwing it in the corner - the anger (at herself for not being able to save the villain her brother), the relief (that her mother is safe and her as well), the disappointment (in herself and what the bat-symbol stands for - never taking a life); the doubt (should she remain a bat-hero - can she continue with the symbol after this incident) --- having her deal with these issues as a civilian (how to deal with her father when he tells her of her brothers death and the guilt she feels for her part in it and for making him sad - also being unable to tell him the truth of it) -- having her in costume looking over the city in contemplation (as she is still comfortable in her suit even with her doubts; the city still needs help plus she is angry and needs an outlet to take it out on someone) when she happens upon the latest villain in the book and as such she puts aside the contemplation and brooding to solve this case and help those in need of help; when she throws her bat-rang - she hesitates for a moment as a flashback to the night previous springs to mind (even if the circumstance and area is totally different) and it gives the villain a chance to attack her and escape; the misunderstanding with the police because of the villain throwing her voice and Batgirl relieves some of her stress on the police even if she feels bad about it - punching helps but the villain escapes leaving her to ponder the night and while she thinks about the night (while in bed or over a glass of wine/tea) she remembers the license plates and once again she is on the move - even if she thinks she is unworthy of the symbol - still the innocents need to be saved and for now she can put aside her doubts and guilt to save those that need saving - lots of time for guilt later...

    ... we could even throw in a scene with her roommate after she gets home that first time after jumping into the river to escape her father and asking for some advice as Babs gives a hypothetical what if statement to her....and if you wanted a crying scene (guilt - doubt - sorrow) then its a good time to put one here.


    Life is messy, and people make poor choices. Plus, this isn't some random therapist; she's the same therapist who appeared earlier this run. Babs was seeing her after she was shot and paralyzed. Not having therapy after something like that would be an even poorer choice.
    Getting a therapist after getting shot and being paralyzed is expected and needed - I agree with you; but in this case she can't fully disclose the event, making lies and half-truths that she has to keep track of and that doesn't help when you are asking for help. It would have been better to go to someone she trusted with all her secrets (of course that leaves only the Bat-people and Alfred).

  3. #33
    Senior Member Ed Sizzers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by magisensei View Post
    The thing is that an issue dealing with what happened would have felt as it flowed better; the flashbacks coupled with the barging into the therapist room while crying feels jarring and a bit off.

    What should have happened in this issue:

    I would have liked to see in this issue her dragging herself out of the river and dealing with the issue after ripping off her costume and throwing it in the corner - the anger (at herself for not being able to save the villain her brother), the relief (that her mother is safe and her as well), the disappointment (in herself and what the bat-symbol stands for - never taking a life); the doubt (should she remain a bat-hero - can she continue with the symbol after this incident) --- having her deal with these issues as a civilian (how to deal with her father when he tells her of her brothers death and the guilt she feels for her part in it and for making him sad - also being unable to tell him the truth of it) -- having her in costume looking over the city in contemplation (as she is still comfortable in her suit even with her doubts; the city still needs help plus she is angry and needs an outlet to take it out on someone) when she happens upon the latest villain in the book and as such she puts aside the contemplation and brooding to solve this case and help those in need of help; when she throws her bat-rang - she hesitates for a moment as a flashback to the night previous springs to mind (even if the circumstance and area is totally different) and it gives the villain a chance to attack her and escape; the misunderstanding with the police because of the villain throwing her voice and Batgirl relieves some of her stress on the police even if she feels bad about it - punching helps but the villain escapes leaving her to ponder the night and while she thinks about the night (while in bed or over a glass of wine/tea) she remembers the license plates and once again she is on the move - even if she thinks she is unworthy of the symbol - still the innocents need to be saved and for now she can put aside her doubts and guilt to save those that need saving - lots of time for guilt later...

    ... we could even throw in a scene with her roommate after she gets home that first time after jumping into the river to escape her father and asking for some advice as Babs gives a hypothetical what if statement to her....and if you wanted a crying scene (guilt - doubt - sorrow) then its a good time to put one here.
    You're hired.

    Quote Originally Posted by magisensei View Post
    Getting a therapist after getting shot and being paralyzed is expected and needed - I agree with you; but in this case she can't fully disclose the event, making lies and half-truths that she has to keep track of and that doesn't help when you are asking for help. It would have been better to go to someone she trusted with all her secrets (of course that leaves only the Bat-people and Alfred).
    This. Although Dinah would have been my first pick for a go-to shoulder.

    "The Tardis, when working properly, is capable of many amazing things. Not unlike myself."

  4. #34
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Sizzers View Post

    This. Although Dinah would have been my first pick for a go-to shoulder.
    That would make sense as she would be able to be more open about everything, although Barbara did go to Dinah for a pep talk in Batgirl #7 which resulted in her giving Barbara a slap across the face and telling her not to be self-pitying as she can walk now and she is Batgirl. I did read around the time of her first appearance that the therapist is based on a real person that Gail Simone knows, so perhaps that is the reason.
    Eppur si muove.

  5. #35
    The Great Curator Mr. Mastermind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Sombrero View Post
    QFT x 1 million
    QFT X 2 million.
    Desaad: Guess they found out [Mr. Mastermind] was Holmes?

    ABH-1979: Really? I don't think so. I actually liked Holmes...

  6. #36
    Senior Member Shimarenda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by magisensei View Post
    The thing is that an issue dealing with what happened would have felt as it flowed better; the flashbacks coupled with the barging into the therapist room while crying feels jarring and a bit off.

    What should have happened in this issue:

    I would have liked to see in this issue her dragging herself out of the river and dealing with the issue after ripping off her costume and throwing it in the corner - the anger (at herself for not being able to save the villain her brother), the relief (that her mother is safe and her as well), the disappointment (in herself and what the bat-symbol stands for - never taking a life); the doubt (should she remain a bat-hero - can she continue with the symbol after this incident) --- having her deal with these issues as a civilian (how to deal with her father when he tells her of her brothers death and the guilt she feels for her part in it and for making him sad - also being unable to tell him the truth of it) -- having her in costume looking over the city in contemplation (as she is still comfortable in her suit even with her doubts; the city still needs help plus she is angry and needs an outlet to take it out on someone) when she happens upon the latest villain in the book and as such she puts aside the contemplation and brooding to solve this case and help those in need of help; when she throws her bat-rang - she hesitates for a moment as a flashback to the night previous springs to mind (even if the circumstance and area is totally different) and it gives the villain a chance to attack her and escape; the misunderstanding with the police because of the villain throwing her voice and Batgirl relieves some of her stress on the police even if she feels bad about it - punching helps but the villain escapes leaving her to ponder the night and while she thinks about the night (while in bed or over a glass of wine/tea) she remembers the license plates and once again she is on the move - even if she thinks she is unworthy of the symbol - still the innocents need to be saved and for now she can put aside her doubts and guilt to save those that need saving - lots of time for guilt later...

    ... we could even throw in a scene with her roommate after she gets home that first time after jumping into the river to escape her father and asking for some advice as Babs gives a hypothetical what if statement to her....and if you wanted a crying scene (guilt - doubt - sorrow) then its a good time to put one here.
    I'm glad you didn't write this issue. That sounds pretty bad.

    Getting a therapist after getting shot and being paralyzed is expected and needed - I agree with you; but in this case she can't fully disclose the event, making lies and half-truths that she has to keep track of and that doesn't help when you are asking for help. It would have been better to go to someone she trusted with all her secrets (of course that leaves only the Bat-people and Alfred).
    And she said she has exiled herself from all of them.
    Pull list:
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  7. #37
    The Dominoed Daredoll batGRRRl4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shimarenda View Post
    I'm glad you didn't write this issue. That sounds pretty bad.
    I actually cringed. I too will stick with Gail Simone's writing, thanks.
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  8. #38
    Gotham Guardian Captain Jim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batalia View Post
    btw, why is this book a week late?
    It wasn't late. It shipped the exact day it was scheduled to ship in the solicitations.
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  9. #39
    Member BadBoy House's Avatar
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    Good issue. Enjoyed it.

    I thought it was strange though that Babs recalled the licence plates, says "she took off but the kidnapper was headed for a car" yet we clearly saw both the ventriloquist and the hostage going up some stairs.

    What's that all about? Wouldn't Simone or Sampere check things or proof read it before submitting the comic? Wouldn't the editor pick up on this? Or are they just not fussed about this sort of thing?

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shimarenda View Post
    I'm glad you didn't write this issue. That sounds pretty bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by batGRRRl4ever View Post
    I actually cringed. I too will stick with Gail Simone's writing, thanks.
    Thanks for the feedback. Just out of curiosity what didn't you like about my take of how it should have went? Too dark? too depressing?

    When I think about what happened I thought it needed a more human/psychological impact. Babs needed to feel anger (at herself and her brother), frustration (at herself and her brother and everything that had happened), sorrow (at his death), disappointment (in herself, in being unable to live up to the symbol), doubt (can she continue with the bat-symbol after what happened, did she really not try hard to enough to save him, did a small part feel relief that he died), sadness (because it was a death and the impact it will have on her father and the fact she can't tell him what happened to lead to all of this), and show strength of will to continue even with what happened. For me Babs and this issue should have dealt with the death and with her psychosis after what happened - it what makes characters that much more human and alive - characters have to deal with death and since death while wearing the bat-symbol is so a big thing to them - she should have to deal with it in a harsh way - rather than just jumping in again and the rather contrived therapy session which was pretty badly written.

    Although we really don't know if he died, this death especially because it was a family member and because she was in costume could have been a change for her character - what the change might be is anyone guess but it could be darker possibility, or a greater commitment to fighting crime that much better or something - death changes people and while we can give the writer time to show this impact - it feels like it will sort of be sweep away with minimal impact outside of cutting out the bat-symbol from her costume.

  11. #41
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    Thought this was an interesting issue but the execution was so-so (Just like most of Simone's whole run).

    The Ventriloquist's origin was a good idea but some of the dialogue at the beginning seemed a bit forced and unnatural and I was hoping that Babs would become a more confident character by now, alas.

  12. #42
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    So, moving right along. This issue was about picking up all the thread left over from prey Death of the Family/James Jr. climax. As with Catwoman 20 he number of ongoing plots was both admirable, and a little hard to get ones footing. We revisit Babs therapist (BTW I am really glad to have a therapist in Gotham who is not a psycho), Ricky and Knightfall, all of whom I I expect to see a lot more of in the post Ventriloquist story. I was expecting the Ventriloquist to tie back to James Jr more explicitly since the were both disturbed and violent children. Maybe in the next issue.

    I would have liked to see Babs's mother, not just Jim Gordon putting out a search for Batgirl. Her perspective is obviously needed here.

    This is a low point for Babs. But I'm willing to wait to see where it goes. Simone said their would be lighter issues coming soon after this. The covers don't really support this, but we'll see.

  13. #43
    Senior Member Bluebow's Avatar
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    It does seem to be dwelling on what she did wrong, injure and as far as she knows kill her own brother and completely ignore what she did right, which was save her own mother's life. Surely she should be able to take some solace from that.
    Eppur si muove.

  14. #44
    Senior Member Ed Sizzers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebow View Post
    It does seem to be dwelling on what she did wrong, injure and as far as she knows kill her own brother and completely ignore what she did right, which was save her own mother's life. Surely she should be able to take some solace from that.
    That's my problem with this arc, and why Babs (and her father's) reaction seems so very contrived. Perhaps if Gail had been brave enough to make Babs' role in James Jnr's 'death' a little more ambiguous, this could have worked. And it wouldn't have been without precedent, Gail had already suggested that Babs' might be capable of crossing that line just a few issues previously.

    Instead though, we've got a Babs wracked with what seems like 'forced' guilt over an event that she had absolutely no control over; Her mother was being held at knifepoint and James was moments away from killing her. Not to mention Babs' concussion, the torrential rain, the weak railing and the fact that the whole plan had been her mother's anyway. Seriously, it's like Gail went out of her way to absolve Babs of any responsibility whatsoever before this whole 'exile' thing even started!

    In retrospect, that also explains why Gail had Babs visit her therapist, rather than a friend she could actually talk to about the entire event. Because nobody in possession of the whole story would blame Babs for the events at the docks. And they would make it perfectly clear to her that she is not responsible. Unfortunately though, for this story to continue, there can be no place for common sense!
    Last edited by Ed Sizzers; 05-18-2013 at 02:46 AM.

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  15. #45
    The Alpha and The Omega Godlike13's Avatar
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    I don't have a problem with her guilt. Even if i had to kill somebody i'd still feel pretty damn shitty about it.

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