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  1. #16

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    My feeling about the DC reboot, and this is just an opinion based on the comics I've read and not really backed up with facts, is that it was done in order to make the comics more palatable to movie makers. The publishers can simply hand a New 52 trade to a studio executive and they'll have an updated piece of source material to hand off to writers and directors.


    I have a similar hunch about this Age of Ultron story. Age of Ultron involves Hank Pym and time travel. There's an Ant Man movie coming up. Marvel is not afraid to alter its own history to suit its needs (i.e. One More Day). If someone interested in the Ant Man movie looks up the character on Wikipedia, they'll find out that Pym beat his wife, had several psychological breakdowns and created a genocidal robot. This might turn away people interested in the movie.

    Age of Ultron can give Marvel a way to change all of that, and make the character more appealing to the casual movie viewer, just in time for the Ant Man movie to come out. That Wikipedia page can then be changed to reflect a new, streamlined history. And movie ticket sales don't have to suffer because of some "silly comicbook stories" (ugh).


    Or maybe I'm just getting too cynical in my old age.

  2. #17
    Kirby is still king ColonelLee's Avatar
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    I was into the DC new52 reboot .. everything started out with great promise. But now .. I've lost the narrative .. as in .. what am I reading? where did this come from? Which Superman is this? and so on ..

    I agree with Tim in that I don't think that DC ever really committed to the "new" of the new52.

    as far as Marvel .. I lost the narrative long ago. In fact, I remember reading a Joe Q quote once where he stated that "breaking the toys" was the plan.

    As a result, I have slowly given up the big two .. and now find narratives I can follow with the smaller publishers ..

  3. #18
    Senior Member FIFTY-TWO (52)'s Avatar
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    Ahahahahaha! Has DC boycotted CBR? Is that why this complaint was passed off as an article?
    "A man can be happy with any woman as long as he does not love her."

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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qwathings View Post
    My feeling about the DC reboot, and this is just an opinion based on the comics I've read and not really backed up with facts, is that it was done in order to make the comics more palatable to movie makers. The publishers can simply hand a New 52 trade to a studio executive and they'll have an updated piece of source material to hand off to writers and directors.


    I have a similar hunch about this Age of Ultron story. Age of Ultron involves Hank Pym and time travel. There's an Ant Man movie coming up. Marvel is not afraid to alter its own history to suit its needs (i.e. One More Day). If someone interested in the Ant Man movie looks up the character on Wikipedia, they'll find out that Pym beat his wife, had several psychological breakdowns and created a genocidal robot. This might turn away people interested in the movie.

    Age of Ultron can give Marvel a way to change all of that, and make the character more appealing to the casual movie viewer, just in time for the Ant Man movie to come out. That Wikipedia page can then be changed to reflect a new, streamlined history. And movie ticket sales don't have to suffer because of some "silly comicbook stories" (ugh).


    Or maybe I'm just getting too cynical in my old age.
    This makes sense. It also explains why the Avengers books spent months treading water instead of giving us the payoff to the Ultron storyline.

  5. #20
    Junior Member Captain Midnight's Avatar
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    Loved the article personally think that Bendis wanted to show DC what he can do using their "bread & butter"(time traveling & the multiverse) stories because DC has done put a big sign on their comics that says DO OVER,without history you are doomed to repeat mistakes. DC stands for Destroying Continuity!!

    I agree with Tim in that I don't think that DC ever really committed to the "new" of the new52.
    No they aren't Frankenstein,Team7,Grifter,and Voodoo are gone, yet Teen Titans is still around??
    Last edited by Captain Midnight; 04-30-2013 at 12:39 AM.
    The truth of the world is that it is chaotic. The truth is more frightening, nobody is in control. The world is rudderless.
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  6. #21
    Member / Bon Vivant Soundrave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBR News View Post
    Cataclysmic stuff, and Bendis couldn't help but frame it all in his superhero-boardroom approach of debating the issues around a table.
    Funny. I iniitially read this as "superhero-boredom."

    Freudian slip?

  7. #22
    Senior Member Bamf25's Avatar
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    I am not loving Age of Ultron, to me it seems almost like a retread of Age of X. That story line also dropped you into the middle of a new universe, no real explanation.

    As for DC, 52 has turned out to be lazy, and the way that they have dealt with the past histories is the core of the laziness. They had 3 options with the new DC universe.
    1. The patchwork history they are using when it fits certain stories. Give writers some have your cake stuff, and flexibility. Conceptually, seems solid because they do not want to totally alienate old readers. The least courageous way. Surprise what they picked. Seemed good on paper, but in execution has lead to immediate continuity problems, and confusion.
    2. Wipe out the past altogether. The most courageous way, but in many ways the easiest as far as decision making goes. With total freedom initially for writers, editorial just has to be mindful of what everyone is doing to keep continuity problems from arising in the future. Yes may alienate old readers, but with good well laid out consistent stories that could be fixed or mitigated.
    3. Go into 52 with a set history from each character. This would have been very labour intensive, and would have required editorial to take a long time to decide what histories would now be cannon. Some old reader feathers would have been ruffled, but old on new readers could have been provided a synopsis of what the now cannon history was for each character. Would have taken some courage omitting some parts of history, but would provide continuity. They could then build going forward and hopefully keep control over creating future conflicts.

    Three would have been the best in my book.
    Last edited by Bamf25; 04-30-2013 at 06:43 AM.
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  8. #23
    A guy who loves comics Sam Robards, Comic Fan's Avatar
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    The whole New52 just seems sloppy. Some books, like Batman, Inc. and Green Lantern, pretty much ignored it because, let's face it, those were about the only two books that were selling consistently well for DC pre-New52, and why break what isn't broken?

    Others got the fresh start they needed, like Wonder Woman and Earth 2, and they're genuinely great books.

    A lot of the line, however, seems garbled and nonsensical. The Robin/Teen Titans issue, the Robins in general, Batgirl's spine, etc. (a lot of these issues seem to come from the Bat-books, don't they?) don't seem to make a whole lot of sense in the 5-year timeframe DC gave us.

    There are also story bits that just don't make the slightest lick of sense in this new universe: mainly, the "Sinestro Corps War." One of the main villains in SCW was Superman-Prime, but if the Crises never happened (as DC claims they didn't), then how could SCW happened the way it did? And how would anyone know who the Anti-Monitor was? And how could "Blackest Night" have happened if none of these heroes have died in the New52 continuity?

    DC editorial may say they have a list of stories that matter and so on, but they don't. They're flying by the seat of their pants and handling (or not handling) continuity faux pas as they go.

    The one thing I don't get involves the lead-up to the New52 itself. The New52 sprang up due to the events of Flashpoint, which was a straightforward time-travel story. Wouldn't Barry Allen, as the only one who remembered the Flashpoint timeline, also remember the prior timeline, as it was his time travel that caused Flashpoint in the first place? We know he remembers Flashpoint because he gives Thomas Wayne's note to Bruce at the end of the series, which takes place in the New52.

    I still read some DC books (Wonder Woman, Earth 2 and Green Lantern), but those three titles are largely separate from the main New52 DC continuity. They play by their own rules, so they aren't tangled up in the rest of this mess.

  9. #24
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    Let me second Jmac and say Qwathings has it exactly right. Repeated use of time travel in a story, with changing rules for how time travel works, corrodes a comics universe.

    But it's not just time travel that erases Marvel and DC U continuity. They have rolling time lines that constantly erase past events. That corrosion is an established part of both the DC and Marvel Universes. The disposable continuity is part of the fun of those books, a constant reinvention of the past. What's hot? What's now? It's been a long time since the Fantastic Four were trying to beat the Soviets in the space race.

    If the article writer wants a story with actual continuity read something outside the DC and Marvel U. The Eisner ballot is full of titles like that, and they're all great.

  10. #25
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    Hopefully Booster Gold will eventually make reference to the pre-flashpoint world, since he is the only one who has time travel and the only non-flash character there at flashpoint

  11. #26
    New Member Krypto_16's Avatar
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    I think that comics have become, as other people have pointed out, nothing more than ready made scripts for possible movies. Which is sad, as they should be their own stories, with nice long histories but everything from the dwindling narration, the end of thought balloons, and pretty much the more cinematic approach to comic storytelling are ample proof. This isn't to say that they can't still make good stories, but I think it gives us a whole heck of a lot less to read, and a lot more comic book pin ups.

    That said, this article is not a snub at DC, the fact is they threw away their continuity yet again. Marvel has not. It just isn't bound ball and chain to it, the way DC Comics have been since creation, likely because the comic book fans are writing the books instead of competent authors. I'm not one to say you can't be both, there's Mark Waid, who always seems to do his research on a character and he always falls in love with them and gives us the best possible interpretation. But more often than not you get people who are so enamored of older versions of a character or who think that changing X-characters outfit would be the equivalent of spiting on Jesus or the Bible and they treat the past like a shackle that can't be loosened. This is what DC saw happening again and again and in an attempt to move away from that they decided to maybe do away with their past, then they changed their mind and did and then they didn't again. The fact of the matter is that this reboot was ill planned, I don't care what anyone says. I've been following the interviews and the writers and the books . . . I am a big fan of DC comics . . . but I'm not reading any of their books at the moment. Well, Wonder Woman and Supergirl because those books are being done right. But most of the line is lost and/or stupidly mimicking Marvel comics. Superboy is an unmitigated disaster. I haven't gotten around to reading Static Shock but the fact is that editors should not dictate stories to writers. That's what writers are for. DC has and is repeatedly showing absolutely no respect for their creators working on the assumption that their characters sell themselves, but the truth is if they did, they wouldn't come second to Marvel all the time.

    I love DC. I'm sure this New52 will eventually explode in DC's face. And I hope they will undo this nonsense or at least do a serious hard reboot that's more carefully planned. The truth is the problem with DC comics is the editors not the creators. The creators have changed constantly, Dan Didio has not . . . and Bob Harras is an industry veteran. DC needs new blood, more bold, someone with true vision and not someone who is only interested in selling Superman on underwear and movies, but as an actual fictional character. They also need to stop being so pissy . . . heard about The Outhouse, and that just sounds like a stupid shame. I'm a DC fan, and because I criticize them, with love, they going to stop selling comics to me or something? Now that would be stupid.
    "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right." ~Isaac Asimov

  12. #27
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    I think this thread is running into serious problems because they're confusing two separate issues at DC.

    There's the relaunch, called New 52. In which the previous continuity was put on probation in 2011.

    Then there was the ongoing management of the DCU and the quality of the stories in 2013. Which is easier without having a fixed history.

    Editorial policy would have been about the same with or without the New 52 relaunch. The relaunch is not a major factor in the quality of the stories. It's the editors, writers and artists. Returning the history won't help, and another relaunch won't help. Don't blame an almost 2 year old event, blame us the creators. Or give us hosannas if you liked it, though I don't think this is the thread for that

  13. #28
    Ek Vitki Runoz Writu CaptMagellan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColonelLee View Post
    As a result, I have slowly given up the big two .. and now find narratives I can follow with the smaller publishers ..
    That's where I'm at. I gave up the big two after Identity Crisis and Civil War. Came back for the New 52 and Marvel Now.... and now I'm down to just Azz's "Wonder Woman" at DC and "Nova" and "Indestructable Hulk" at Marvel.

    On the other hand I'm loving tons of stuff from Monkeybrain, Dynamite, Image, and Dark Horse.
    "The Way to see by Faith, is to shut the Eye of Reason" - Benjamin Franklin

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  14. #29
    Great White North Brian from Canada's Avatar
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    Sorry, but this IS a dig at DC. Plain and simple.

    DC's decisions about continuity are NOT arbitrary: the logic is the trades. Trades sell. And with an exclusive deal over the Kindle Fire, there's no way DC is going to suddenly negate what's out there in digital form and on old fans' bookshelves in favour of a wiped clean slate.

    That's where the confusion lies. If you take Batman, for example, Year One, Death In The Family and The Killing Joke still have resonance through to today. All three are referenced in the present Batman continuity just as the post-Crisis Teen Titans noted The Judas Contract — which in turn made a problem for New 52 because Judas Contract has the transformation of Robin to Nightwing (never repeated elsewhere) but framed with Titans no longer around.

    And the same can be framed into every series. Green Lantern trades were on the rise for the movie, so they stayed in. Wonder Woman trades are basically ignorable, but they could technically still fit into Wonder Woman's past when she was a public Amazon. The only exception in Batman Inc., but that goes to Grant Morrison's continued carte blanche at DC.

    I have no problem with DC doing this because the alternative is to cripple the writers of the future. Too many times have I seen NuMarvel (as Quesada and Alonso like to call it) stuff a story into back continuity in order to do a future story, but the back story doesn't really fit. I'd rather DC have a general framework, a set of hard rules around them, and the freedom to tell stories that are new and exciting without having to constantly tell readers what the reason is.

    For all DC has done, they've not once said a supermodel beats the devil or that continuity is a crutch best left ignored. They want you to still enjoy the past in trades, but DC is now looking forward just like everyone else. If it cost them continuity on a set of bad event story ideas ("Amazons Attack" anybody? "DC 1,000,000"?) then so be it.

  15. #30
    Senior Member Trey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arsenalfc83 View Post
    Yeah this article was garbage. Biased much? I personally HATE time travel stories anyways. Don't ignore the fact that marvel doesn't really have any "rules" to their universe. Just whatever the author needs to make the story work. Same can be said for DC so stop pretending like Marvel is nailing it.
    hahaha, "biased much", yet YOU are the one that hates time travel stories, so you are the biased one.

    Tim nails DC because they deserve it, cut ties to its history, and hired writers and editors from 30 years ago, and use the same boring house style art on many of their titles. I'm looking at you Boys from Brazil!

    They could have made their new direction easily without this mess, (I really liked Flashpoint!) simply by relaunching with new books, writers and artists with a more contemporary style , that can attract the coveted teens and the long time reader.
    "Calm down, call Batman." - Greg Capullo

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