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  1. #1
    ever-lovin' blue-eyed guy mjayg's Avatar
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    Thumbs down The Dysfunctional Bat-Family

    What a mess.

    I told people that if they liked the Batman (and Green Lantern) comics before New 52, they would still like them but man, what a mess they've become.

    Batman's son DIES but everyone is mad at him so they won't talk to him or work with him or even have moved out of town (Nightwing).

    The editors really messed this up as far as I can tell and I feel bad for the writers who have been trying to make sense of it. Pulling stunts like the Carrie Kelley thing (which was lame) doesn't cover up what a disaster this is and the Red Robin/Frankenstein issue was also ridiculous.

    Yes, I can buy someone going off the deep-end and wanting to do anything possible to bring back their child but Batman basically torturing someone to get the information he needs I don't buy... he had Frank on a table sliced up... are you telling me he doesn't feel pain?

    Also, first Jason's face isn't destroyed, then in a single line where he says it "almost" happened, it isn't.

    Plus the Joker's Daughter? Terrible.

    It's starting to feel like they just have no ideas or plans beyond what comes up spur of the moment and that is pretty much for the whole New 52 in general, not just the Bat comics. I'm finding them more and more of a let down every month with very few exceptions (All-Star Western of all things, maybe Justice League and a couple others).

    And beyond a little speech about it, I still find it hard to believe Barbara Gordon is walking around. We were promised it would all be explained in a future issue and it was... in a word balloon or two.

    Batman (and his family) are great characters (ditto for much of the New 52 of course) and it is a pretty sad state where things are at now.

    I'm sure much of this has been said and I'm not trying to troll. I just read some of the Bat comics from the last few weeks and am greatly disappointed and wanted to express it. YMMV

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjayg View Post
    What a mess.

    I told people that if they liked the Batman (and Green Lantern) comics before New 52, they would still like them but man, what a mess they've become.

    Batman's son DIES but everyone is mad at him so they won't talk to him or work with him or even have moved out of town (Nightwing).
    Gotham, evidently from having multiple titles based around it, is a big place, and each of the collective Gotham Heroes' responsibilities. What's say, if Batgirl left, to say, California, wouldn't, while Batman is having his hands full of, perhaps Mad Hatter or Scarecrow; if ever they spring loose again, Knightfall or Grotesque be painting the zone in which Barbara formely took care of, red?
    Last edited by ngroove; 04-19-2013 at 09:28 AM.

  3. #3
    ever-lovin' blue-eyed guy mjayg's Avatar
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    Just read the new Batgirl (SPOILERS).



    Her brother breaks his spine just before he falls into the ocean. Does anyone really believe he is gone? I wish, really annoying character.

    And the scene with the big reveal between her and her roomate? Not believable. "Thanks for explaining all the crime and murder you're involved in, I have something to tell you too..." /facepalm

  4. #4
    Harley Licks Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Doesn't matter what they do to the characters around him imo
    the last 10 years have shown me that no matter what Batman will always remain popular so now DC has the leverage to okat crazy stuff happening again and its effecting the characters around Batman but for him its already broken ground.
    If hey really turned Batman into this full on antisocial paranoid control freak people would still like him and that's part of why most of the stuff the OP isn't liking is happening "people like it"
    Currrently Reading- Suicide Squad,Justice League,Batwoman,Batman,Batman and Robin,Detective Comics, Wonder Woman,Batman Eternal,Mighty Avengers,All new X-factor,Justice League 3000 and Harley Quinn

  5. #5
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjayg View Post
    What a mess.

    I told people that if they liked the Batman (and Green Lantern) comics before New 52, they would still like them but man, what a mess they've become.

    Batman's son DIES but everyone is mad at him so they won't talk to him or work with him or even have moved out of town (Nightwing).

    The editors really messed this up as far as I can tell and I feel bad for the writers who have been trying to make sense of it. Pulling stunts like the Carrie Kelley thing (which was lame) doesn't cover up what a disaster this is and the Red Robin/Frankenstein issue was also ridiculous.

    Yes, I can buy someone going off the deep-end and wanting to do anything possible to bring back their child but Batman basically torturing someone to get the information he needs I don't buy... he had Frank on a table sliced up... are you telling me he doesn't feel pain?
    Apparently not. Being a walking, talking, reanimated corpse and all.

  6. #6
    Junior Member theDarkJAww13's Avatar
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    Batman's one of the best books on shelves right now. Your opinion is that it's in a bad shape - but the majority of comic readers (not CBR forum posters, mind you) would disagree with that. If you're not into it, stop reading it.

    But in my opinion New 52 > pre-52. By a lot. Cohesive (even if shortened) timeline? oh no! haha
    Last edited by theDarkJAww13; 04-19-2013 at 03:31 PM.

  7. #7
    All Caste Warrior JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    If you think the Bat titles are in such a bad state then I would suggest you simply stop reading them and look for other alternatives instead whatever those may be. It seems like a simple solution to your problem to me at any rate but it is only a suggestion so you can take it or leave it. I'm pretty happy with some of the Bat titles but there are others that I'm deeply unhappy with the state of but that was true before the reboot.
    Last edited by JasonTodd428; 04-19-2013 at 04:24 PM.
    Characters come and go, revamped and revisited. But as long as you enjoyed them, remember them and continue to appreciate them, then that character, your hero or heroine, will always exist.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjayg View Post
    What a mess.

    I told people that if they liked the Batman (and Green Lantern) comics before New 52, they would still like them but man, what a mess they've become.

    Batman's son DIES but everyone is mad at him so they won't talk to him or work with him or even have moved out of town (Nightwing).

    The editors really messed this up as far as I can tell and I feel bad for the writers who have been trying to make sense of it. Pulling stunts like the Carrie Kelley thing (which was lame) doesn't cover up what a disaster this is and the Red Robin/Frankenstein issue was also ridiculous.

    I think the problem is less that the stories are bad and more that the timing is bad.

    "Batman Inc." IMO felt like it was paying barest lip-service to the reboot. It's Morrison finishing up the quite good story he'd been telling in the Bat-titles for years prior to the relaunch. But when the relaunch happened he stopped being the flagship writer for the Bat-titles and ended up off in his own quasi-out of continuity corner (there is no way to fit Jason's roll as Wingman in Inc in with his activities in RHatO) Then Morrison killed Damian and the rest of the writers suddenly had to start paying attention to what he was doing again.

    Since the Relaunch Snyder has been setting the tone for the Bat-books. His Joker story was happily going about it's business of creating a divide between Bruce and the rest of the family which was clearly the status quo that the rest of the writers were planning their future stories around. DotF set up Tim acting under some sort of mental influence from the Joker in Titans, Dick leaving Gotham and Jason being seriously hurt by Joker again. That was the story that the bulk of the Bat-family writers were collaborating on, but it got completely upstaged by the totally unrelated story of Damian's death in Inc and now all the other titles are scrambling to react to Morrison's story.

    It's not that Morrison's story OR the story that was being set-up in the rest of the Bat-Titles were bad, but they're incompatible. The characters are being made to react to Damian's death while at the same time they can't deviate too far from their planned post-DotF reactions. I think DC either should have left Morrison as the flagship writer for the Bat-titles until his story finished or they should have made Inc a trailing remnant of the old continuity. Instead the Bat-Titles have two drivers yanking the steering wheel in opposing directions.

  9. #9
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizmet View Post
    I think the problem is less that the stories are bad and more that the timing is bad.

    "Batman Inc." IMO felt like it was paying barest lip-service to the reboot. It's Morrison finishing up the quite good story he'd been telling in the Bat-titles for years prior to the relaunch. But when the relaunch happened he stopped being the flagship writer for the Bat-titles and ended up off in his own quasi-out of continuity corner (there is no way to fit Jason's roll as Wingman in Inc in with his activities in RHatO) Then Morrison killed Damian and the rest of the writers suddenly had to start paying attention to what he was doing again.

    Since the Relaunch Snyder has been setting the tone for the Bat-books. His Joker story was happily going about it's business of creating a divide between Bruce and the rest of the family which was clearly the status quo that the rest of the writers were planning their future stories around. DotF set up Tim acting under some sort of mental influence from the Joker in Titans, Dick leaving Gotham and Jason being seriously hurt by Joker again. That was the story that the bulk of the Bat-family writers were collaborating on, but it got completely upstaged by the totally unrelated story of Damian's death in Inc and now all the other titles are scrambling to react to Morrison's story.

    It's not that Morrison's story OR the story that was being set-up in the rest of the Bat-Titles were bad, but they're incompatible. The characters are being made to react to Damian's death while at the same time they can't deviate too far from their planned post-DotF reactions. I think DC either should have left Morrison as the flagship writer for the Bat-titles until his story finished or they should have made Inc a trailing remnant of the old continuity. Instead the Bat-Titles have two drivers yanking the steering wheel in opposing directions.
    To a large part I agree with this. The reboot was horribly timed given Morrison's story. To a huge extent I also think the editorial decisions regarding the charars and the timeline, from there being 4 Robins in 5 years, to the regression of Barbara Gordon's character, to the 5 year timeline itself, have made it near impossible for the nooks to tell a cohesive story, let alone have them all tell good stories. Year Zero is probably what should have opened the Nu52 instead of the Owls storyline.

  10. #10
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    Overall, I have to disagree with the OP. I do find agreement with Kizmet though about the bad timing of events which is totally the editorial failing. And it does tend to upset the flow so everything feels choppy at the moment. Dick going to Chicago seems to have been well planned out then Damian dies so the only way to keep that story moving forward is for him to be a complete ass. I don't get how they could let this happen. Or why they didn't know Morrison's plans in order to correctly handle it. And if they did know his plans, they are terrible about implementing them throughout the line.

    On the Joker's Daughter, I've never understood disliking a storyline that isn't even a story yet. We've seen an image, we know something's coming and that's it. I get not liking the image but that's all we can do at the moment.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    the last 10 years have shown me that no matter what Batman will always remain popular
    Yeah, it's almost inconceivable to me. Reminds me of how, 15-20 years ago anything with an "X" on the cover would sell 500,000 copies, minimum, no matter what happened in the actual comic. Or how 5 years ago Bendis could crank out decompressed New Avengers issues that took five minutes to read, all about Wolverine and Spider-Man bickering over their new apartment, and they'd be the number one comics in the land.

    Mike Marts seems to have lucked out or something, because no matter how the Bat-titles are mismanaged, they sell. I guess it's a combination of the character's popularity and Marts' genuine talent for attracting a huge number of A- and B-list creators to the Bat-books no matter what.

    I mean, I loved most of what Morrison did from R.I.P. through the Return of Bruce Wayne and Inc., but during those transitions the entire Bat-line was so mismanaged in terms of release date scheduling and continuity. No one knew what mini-series fit in where half the time, and many of the tie-ins and cover banners were super-confusing. Marts did things like announce "Battle for the Cowl" as a bi-weekly series, only to watch as the last two issues came out months and months after the first. He scheduled a bizarre, near-pointless "missing" chapter of "R.I.P." years after the story was over. Issues would come out with unannounced fill-in artists. Marts gave Tony freaking Daniel years and years of Batman work, and made him the WRITER of not only "Battle for the Cowl" but also a relaunched "Detective Comics" #1?! He gives David Finch a writing gig too, and Finch promptly falls months and months behind schedule. Everything has seemed like a total cluster-eff, and yet through it all the Bat-titles remained the hottest property in comics. It's really amazing to behold.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjayg View Post
    Her brother breaks his spine just before he falls into the ocean. Does anyone really believe he is gone? I wish, really annoying character.
    Yeah, Gordon Jr. was a really good character until about three issues before the end of Snyder's 'Tec run, when he decided to turn him into a typical serial killer sociopath. The build-up was actually quite well-done, I thought... but then all of a sudden everything becomes cliche and disgusting. And the explanation seemed to be: "Hey, it's all okay because it's super-violent, gruesome, and thus meaningful and 'adult'!"

    I'm not surprised to see the typical gruesomeness and unbelievable setups continue through the character's Batgirl appearances. Did anyone really believe that the Joker died when he pointlessly fell into the water at the end of DotF (because Snyder didn't really know what else to DO to end things)? No. So... let's have another character all fall to his "death" in the water, but we'll break his spine first. And why will we break his spine first? A) Because it's pointlessly violent and gruesome, which as has been established by Snyder's stewardship of the Bat-verse, is the goal of every storyline: to be as violent and gruesome as possible. And B) because we can pretend that this is in some way a meaningful escalation of things. "Ah, the Joker will probably swim to freedom, but there's NO WAY that Gordon Jr. will!"

    Whatever happened to telling stories that could conclude in meaningful ways WITHOUT ultraviolence and/or obnoxious self-conscious paradigm shifts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kizmet View Post
    I think the problem is less that the stories are bad and more that the timing is bad.

    "Batman Inc." IMO felt like it was paying barest lip-service to the reboot. It's Morrison finishing up the quite good story he'd been telling in the Bat-titles for years prior to the relaunch. But when the relaunch happened he stopped being the flagship writer for the Bat-titles and ended up off in his own quasi-out of continuity corner (there is no way to fit Jason's roll as Wingman in Inc in with his activities in RHatO) Then Morrison killed Damian and the rest of the writers suddenly had to start paying attention to what he was doing again.

    Since the Relaunch Snyder has been setting the tone for the Bat-books. His Joker story was happily going about it's business of creating a divide between Bruce and the rest of the family which was clearly the status quo that the rest of the writers were planning their future stories around. DotF set up Tim acting under some sort of mental influence from the Joker in Titans, Dick leaving Gotham and Jason being seriously hurt by Joker again. That was the story that the bulk of the Bat-family writers were collaborating on, but it got completely upstaged by the totally unrelated story of Damian's death in Inc and now all the other titles are scrambling to react to Morrison's story.

    It's not that Morrison's story OR the story that was being set-up in the rest of the Bat-Titles were bad, but they're incompatible. The characters are being made to react to Damian's death while at the same time they can't deviate too far from their planned post-DotF reactions. I think DC either should have left Morrison as the flagship writer for the Bat-titles until his story finished or they should have made Inc a trailing remnant of the old continuity. Instead the Bat-Titles have two drivers yanking the steering wheel in opposing directions.
    Eh, I dunno. You say that Snyder's "Joker story was happily going about it's business of creating a divide between Bruce and the rest of the family", but it should be added that the ways and means of this were totally artificial and false, leaving most readers wondering how gullible the rest of the Bat-family must be to side with the Joker against Bruce in any meaningful or lasting way. Snyder needed to rely on retcons and shoehorned ideas to try to put a wedge between the "family", and even then it didn't really work.

    And I'm not really sure that Snyder himself has been pulling "in his own direction" against Morrison. What has Snyder followed up DotF with? Stories about Batman bonding with people, talking with Alfred, a flashback of him getting along with Damian (whom he was supposed to fall out with to an extent), and then he'll be delving into an entire Zero Year thing.

    I agree that things have been mismanaged and feel somewhat out of whack with what Morrison's been doing, but to just examine what's been done in the "Batman" title doesn't make an awful lot of sense. "We're going to have huge trumped-up event in which the 'family dies'... even though we've known well in advance that Damian is scheduled to die for real right afterwards... and then rather than show the ramifications of DotF, we're going to tell an entire year worth of stories set in the past." Even if Damian didn't die, and even if Morrison's story wasn't still going on, things would feel very awkward.

  12. #12
    The Great Curator Mr. Mastermind's Avatar
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    I like the idea. I don't care for them bickering but I like the family going in separate and different directions in order to gain a sense of uniqueness in them. Simone and Nocenti will still pump out garbage no matter what, but Higgins deserves a second chance after editorial ruining Nightwing and RHatO is cutting out a solid niche.

    But PLEASE get a new writer on Catwoman, I beg of you. I'd take Winnick over Nocenti for Christ's sake.
    Desaad: Guess they found out [Mr. Mastermind] was Holmes?

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  13. #13
    All Caste Warrior JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mastermind View Post
    I like the idea. I don't care for them bickering but I like the family going in separate and different directions in order to gain a sense of uniqueness in them. Simone and Nocenti will still pump out garbage no matter what, but Higgins deserves a second chance after editorial ruining Nightwing and RHatO is cutting out a solid niche.
    I don't like that they are bickering either but then again family members do bicker and get mad at each other so I don't have a problem with it here. I'm thinking in the end they will come out stronger for it anyway and things will go back to "normal" whatever that is for the Bat Family. I do however like that they are going their seperate ways for the time being (along with the main Bat title being set in the past for a good chunk of time) because I think it will give the other titles a chance to grow a little. RHatO has found it's niche and has had a good chance to develope without much interference and I would like to see what the rest of the Bat writers do if left alone for a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mastermind View Post
    But PLEASE get a new writer on Catwoman, I beg of you. I'd take Winnick over Nocenti for Christ's sake.
    I wish they would get a new writer for Catwoman as well. I dropped it as soon as Nocenti came onboard without even bothering to read an issue based on her GA work.
    Characters come and go, revamped and revisited. But as long as you enjoyed them, remember them and continue to appreciate them, then that character, your hero or heroine, will always exist.

  14. #14
    those god-damned goggles chipsnopotatoes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mastermind View Post
    I like the idea. I don't care for them bickering but I like the family going in separate and different directions in order to gain a sense of uniqueness in them. Simone and Nocenti will still pump out garbage no matter what, but Higgins deserves a second chance after editorial ruining Nightwing and RHatO is cutting out a solid niche.

    But PLEASE get a new writer on Catwoman, I beg of you. I'd take Winnick over Nocenti for Christ's sake.
    Paul Tobin on Catwoman. http://www.paultobin.net/?p=4914

  15. #15
    Elder Member BrotherUnitNo_4's Avatar
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    They probably just need to let the books run for a year without a major crossover for the line.

    They could make a few other changes, creatively speaking, maybe replace a book or two. Otherwise, the line's in not so bad shape.
    Currently reading She-Hulk, Deadpool, Swamp Thing, Ms. Marvel

    Probation: Ghost Rider, Loki: LoA, Secret Avengers

    Looking forward to All-New Ultimates, Flash Gordon and Doctor Mirage.

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