Page 29 of 29 FirstFirst ... 192526272829
Results 421 to 429 of 429
  1. #421
    Elder Member vitruvian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    18,538

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Or, the kids could have been resigned to the FF dying and world destroyed. Knowing Franky, he'd just recreate them again, out of nostalgia, and just languish in the idyllic.

    But I'm not sure what the children would do. You could be right and that's how Bendis has this play out with the kids saving the day? I'm not sure if Franky and Ultron have met, but Ultron sure took out the FF very easily, and Franky isn't smarter than Ultron. If you look at all the people available in the MU and in the future, Ultron had to have a lot of plan B's in place in case anybody arrived using a time machine, and, depending on who they were. Kang, Nathaniel, Older Franky and Val, Hope, and Cable, Sinister, Doom. Ultron had to time this just right so that none of these threats could interfere with his plan.
    We don't know that Ultron has any plan Bs against time travel counter attack, as yet. After all, he didn't have drones stationed to protect his creator, did he?

    And Franklin may not be smarter than Ultron, but Valeria may well be, and Franklin's going to grow up so that Galactus is his herald, remember. And Franklin's taken Ultron out before, and if his power fully manifests (which future Franklin indicated may happen soon), then I don't think even post-AU conquest Ultron really stands a chance against somebody like that.

  2. #422
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    25,882

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by chastmastr View Post
    Thanks for leading me to the right Android.
    Visited NY and DC and saw Spider-Man Turn off the Dark.

  3. #423
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    25,882

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    We don't know that Ultron has any plan Bs against time travel counter attack, as yet. After all, he didn't have drones stationed to protect his creator, did he?

    And Franklin may not be smarter than Ultron, but Valeria may well be, and Franklin's going to grow up so that Galactus is his herald, remember. And Franklin's taken Ultron out before, and if his power fully manifests (which future Franklin indicated may happen soon), then I don't think even post-AU conquest Ultron really stands a chance against somebody like that.
    Maybe it's because Ultron knows the current timeline can't be altered, that he has such confidence?
    Visited NY and DC and saw Spider-Man Turn off the Dark.

  4. #424
    Elder Member vitruvian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    18,538

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Maybe it's because Ultron knows the current timeline can't be altered, that he has such confidence?
    If the current timeline can't be altered, then we don't get a neat "What if Hank Pym Was Murdered" What If? in this next issue, so no, I don't think so.

    Here's the thing.... there have been a lot of stories where it's been stated that Ultron is really smart, but mostly that's borne out by the level of technology he can pull out. When it comes to planning and scheming and tactics and strategy, I honestly can't think of an Ultron story where it's actually been shown that he's any good at these things, much less that he'd be a master at the four dimensional chess game of time travel hijinks. Maybe Annihilation: Conquest - maybe. I mean, just look at this latest plot... it's the first time we've seen Ultron employ time travel, and it appears to be a pretty straightforward invasion from the future. No subtle moves where he sends Terminator-like disguised drones back to specific points to deal with his enemies, or ploys like that. So, if Sue and Logan have changed the timeline (however temporarily) by killing Hank, and Ultron didn't have pawns in place to block that move, it's probably because he just didn't anticipate it.

    I could be wrong, though. Maybe he's smart enough to send his own basic design schematics back in time to dozens of would-be inventors, to ensure that he'll come into existence no matter what. If the by your bootstraps effect was good enough for Heinlein, I'm sure it's good enough for Bendis to use it.

  5. #425
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    25,882

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    If the current timeline can't be altered, then we don't get a neat "What if Hank Pym Was Murdered" What If? in this next issue, so no, I don't think so.

    Here's the thing.... there have been a lot of stories where it's been stated that Ultron is really smart, but mostly that's borne out by the level of technology he can pull out. When it comes to planning and scheming and tactics and strategy, I honestly can't think of an Ultron story where it's actually been shown that he's any good at these things, much less that he'd be a master at the four dimensional chess game of time travel hijinks. Maybe Annihilation: Conquest - maybe. I mean, just look at this latest plot... it's the first time we've seen Ultron employ time travel, and it appears to be a pretty straightforward invasion from the future. No subtle moves where he sends Terminator-like disguised drones back to specific points to deal with his enemies, or ploys like that. So, if Sue and Logan have changed the timeline (however temporarily) by killing Hank, and Ultron didn't have pawns in place to block that move, it's probably because he just didn't anticipate it.

    I could be wrong, though. Maybe he's smart enough to send his own basic design schematics back in time to dozens of would-be inventors, to ensure that he'll come into existence no matter what. If the by your bootstraps effect was good enough for Heinlein, I'm sure it's good enough for Bendis to use it.
    I never thought of that one, but yes, some device to circumnavigate any alteration that would eliminate Ultron from reality. And seeing as Doom Locks can only be engaged by cyborgs, it's possible AU does become an alternate reality. If that is the case, then no matter how this turns out, the 616 as we know it doesn't exist anymore, from the point that Ultron appears. But if the new Alternate Reality that Sue and Logan create is a continuation of what the MU 616 would have been like without AU, then I suppose that could be as close an equivalent to the 616 as it can be.

    But they would have to defeat Ultron in the Marvel Now era, not 1968/2000 when Pym was killed. They would have to find that nullifying element just as Ultrons growth starts and the drones attack, and infect Ultron right then. But even if Sue and Logan were able to achieve that, the original MU 616 is still an Ultron defeated world. Nothing can change that.

    To my mind the MU has branched off a couple of times now. When Sue died in death in the family, for one, and now AU.
    Last edited by jackolover; 05-04-2013 at 08:25 AM.
    Visited NY and DC and saw Spider-Man Turn off the Dark.

  6. #426
    Senior Member chastmastr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    3,916

    Default

    I think the key is that The Way Time Travel Works In The Marvel Universe is pretty much variable in service to the story they want to tell, rather than an inflexible law, and having some time machines or other things get around it are convenient McGuffins to allow the story and character interaction to proceed in the way they want them to.

    I have much more trouble suspending my disbelief at the characterization of Logan and Sue in the past (not trying to explain things to Pym, etc.) than I do with whether the time machine alters time or creates a new alternate universe, and whether this fits with other Marvel stories about how time travel works.

  7. #427
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    25,882

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by chastmastr View Post
    I think the key is that The Way Time Travel Works In The Marvel Universe is pretty much variable in service to the story they want to tell, rather than an inflexible law, and having some time machines or other things get around it are convenient McGuffins to allow the story and character interaction to proceed in the way they want them to.

    I have much more trouble suspending my disbelief at the characterization of Logan and Sue in the past (not trying to explain things to Pym, etc.) than I do with whether the time machine alters time or creates a new alternate universe, and whether this fits with other Marvel stories about how time travel works.
    Yes, I really wonder what Beast hoped to achieve with bringing the 05 from 1968/2000 to 2013? Did he try to change history, by having the 05 change Cyclops mind about something? If so, then he's already changed history by bringing them to the present. Maybe the Beasts time interference is what caused Ultron to attack in AU. Ultron attacking could actually have created an alternative Earth-616 already, by Ultrons interference. It's quite possible the 616 still exists unaffected by AU, and that AU is a branch off, so killing Pym never happens in the real 616, just this Ultron branch off?
    Visited NY and DC and saw Spider-Man Turn off the Dark.

  8. #428
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    25,882

    Default

    I've just had a look at Avengers #41, where Pym got delivery of the Dragon Man to his lab in Manhattan. Wasp was there, and anytime Pym would be working on Dragon Man, Bill Foster his assistant would be there right beside him. Unless Wasp was out shopping, and Bill Foster had a day off, like a Sunday, would be the only times Hank would be alone in the lab studying the Android. When Wasp returned later that evening, she would find the body of Hank and call Bill Foster, who would come straight over. The audio tapes of his thoughts on a new, advanced AI system would be on the recorded message he was making in AU #6, so Bill Foster may take an interest in Hanks work. Another occurrence would be that soon after Pyms death, Diablo invaded the Lab and took Dragon Man back, and this time Pym was not around for Diablo to blackmail him into being his slave. So unless Diablo encounter the Wasp while she was mourning Hanks death, Diablo didn't take Wasp hostage, because their was no reason too, and, they may not have met on that occasion.
    Last edited by jackolover; 05-05-2013 at 03:40 AM.
    Visited NY and DC and saw Spider-Man Turn off the Dark.

  9. #429
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    25,882

    Default

    Sorry for resurrecting this old thread, but can someone tell me the Chronometer they use to pinpoint where Logan and Sue had to go to kill Hank Pym before he could invent Ultron? Did they go to Avengers records. Did they just remember what year and what month this happened, or could they pinpoint it to the day? I'm just curious. Same with All New X-Men and how Beast knew the date and hour he wanted to get his team from the past? Beast had less need for accuracy as long as it was after a certain year and month, sure. But Logan and Sue had to know precisely when to go back to, or they could overshoot or undershoot. In the movie Time Machine, there was a dial you could set and it would take you to that time. How is it done in Marvel time travel? Because Logan and Sue aren't Avenger historians, but I suppose Hawkeye was, and Clint set the time machine for Logan.

    I can understand that when they left their time, they could always go back to it, like a rubber band just releasing and going back to its neutral position. And how Stark detected time chronosomes to follow to get to the future that Ultron came from,I can also understand. But what is the mechanism of setting the forward or back travel? I suppose Doom has to know where his time machine is going to land him, and whatever that mechanism is, the Avengers had that too. It would be nice to know.
    Last edited by jackolover; 08-10-2013 at 02:36 AM.
    Visited NY and DC and saw Spider-Man Turn off the Dark.

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •