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  1. #301
    The curious one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by celticguy View Post
    Yes often they do becasue the people do not always see the alternatives. Some people get swallowed up in the grief of the situation. If you refer to Nick Fury's plan as a viable altrnative you misunderstand the term Fury's plan is a hail mary throw.
    Fury's plan isn't what I'm discussing. Logan's plan is. Fury's plan was a desperate one with little hope of success. Just like all of the other plans over the years that have succeeded. Logan's plan is basically to toss a fire cracker into a hornets nest in hopes that the hornets will go after the bees that are swarming toward you and completely ignoring the fact you could just go inside the house and close the door.

  2. #302
    The curious one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by celticguy View Post
    What you are calling a short cut can be looked as not going off on a tangent. The point of going back in time is discussed but you seem to want page after page of debate. Instead you can take what is seen on the page add to it as much inner debate as you wish but this is where tehy end up. Tigra getting raped you want to see every piece of the action instead of letting a panel or two indicate she was attacked and lost. Sometimes you can infer what has happened not everything has to be spelled out for every reader.
    Was Tigra raped? I thought that she was only beat up.

    At any rate it comes yes I do want more from the story. I do want the writer to work hard and I don't get the feeling that Bendis is working very hard on this story. When a character tromps off across the desert to seek a treasure it's an interesting story. When a character tromps off acorss the desert in search of treasure and ignores the fact that he's got a helicopter that can carry him across the desert I call that lazy writing and that is in my opinion what I see here. Going back in time to commit a murder on the off chance that it might makes things better and ignoring all of the other things you can do with a time machine is in my opinion lazy writing. Bendis wanted the scene where Hank is killed, he wants to take the story in another direction and he doesn't want to do any hard work to get there. That is how I see it.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by celticguy View Post
    You seem to want a 800 page novel in a 22 page comic. In the past 3 or so year in the MU Sue has been through the CW, DR, FI, her brother dying, and her husband, brother (again), and closest friend die, her home destroy (again), many friends die and millions she does not know die as well. Yet you need that spelled out to have an impact on her? Those are just some of the high points of course, That all she was was willing to consider Logan's plan was a minor is small. That she was conflicted about what to to is all to human a reaction. Grief changes people and affects their judgement to say the least. If readers need every small chage in opinion or principle spelled out for them that is their limitation not the writers responsibility.
    If that is the case then we should have seen that grief affect every aspect of her in the Fantastic Four title. I'm not reading it, but was it there?

  4. #304
    Member OberonOsiris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYAvenger15 View Post
    Really hating the characterization of Sue Storm in this. I mean to some extent i can see her being upset but to allow wolverine to murder someone makes no sense. Yes Hank Pym created a device that will one day destroy the world that we know it, but it was not his intent. To kill someone for something that their child does, if you can even call Ultron it's child is murder and is wrong. I really can't see how Wolverine is an Avenger the dude has no morals what so ever.

    But I guess these are the new heroes where they have no boundaries or jurisdiction. If there was ever need for a superhero civil war it would be now not over a stupid registration of powers.
    As a child... - as *Sue*'s child, Franklin once destroyed Ultron on his own (the classic FF # 150 where Quicksilver married Crystal, btw). This also caused Franklin's comatose state to end. So... Sue has also kept her child in a coma. Think of that Butterfly effect: With Franklin remaining in a coma, he may not have been able to save the world from ONslaught, or any number of other cosmic situations...
    "Mmmmmmm, Namor" - Celebrating Cold Water's Appreciation of All Things Namor

  5. #305
    Latverian Tourism Bureau Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    And in previous situations where her entire family were killed, it's possible that she might have opted to do the same thing. But this specific situation didn't necessarily present itself on those occasions.

    As far as Doom locks go... they seem to be using one of Dooms time travel platforms so perhaps that's implied.
    What I don't understand is just how many of these platforms are lying around?

    In any event, I don't see how Franklin could have been removed from the board so quickly but then he probably would have ended the story right at the first sign of all these Ultrons emerging from the future.
    "...Doom's enemies have not the mettle to challenge him host to host, tooth to nail... As economic and military options fail them, they resort to simple rudeness."

  6. #306
    Science is fun Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    Was Tigra raped? I thought that she was only beat up.

    At any rate it comes yes I do want more from the story. I do want the writer to work hard and I don't get the feeling that Bendis is working very hard on this story. When a character tromps off across the desert to seek a treasure it's an interesting story. When a character tromps off acorss the desert in search of treasure and ignores the fact that he's got a helicopter that can carry him across the desert I call that lazy writing and that is in my opinion what I see here. Going back in time to commit a murder on the off chance that it might makes things better and ignoring all of the other things you can do with a time machine is in my opinion lazy writing. Bendis wanted the scene where Hank is killed, he wants to take the story in another direction and he doesn't want to do any hard work to get there. That is how I see it.
    I so agree with you, Mark... Bendis keeps saying he likes the character, but I don't see the love anywhere. He wanted him dead, end of story. Maybe the rest of the story will prove me wrong and I will finally see the "love"... I wouldn't call it "lazy writing" but "single-minded writing". Like you said, he had an idea, and stuck with it, no matter how many other ideas, better ones, were offered to him. I mean, I can't believe that no one at Marvel told him : "but what if they tried to talk to Pym, explain to him. He's one of the smartest men on the planet after all" or "what if they somehow brainedwashed Pym with the help of Xavier" or whatever other good idea came up on this forum. I could see why Bendis wanted this to be such a secret that only a handful of people knew about the story. He might not have wanted anybody to give him better, more logical alternatives!

  7. #307
    Science is fun Mary Jay's Avatar
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    The feeling I get, especially after seeing that panel online from future issue #8... I'm probably wrong, as Bendis said we won't see it coming and everything, but still... After Hank Pym's murder (yes, it was a murder, pure and simple...) Tony Stark decides to take on his work where Hank has left off, as a sort of tribute. And that's where things go sour. Ultron gets to be created, but with Stark's brainpatterns instead of Pym's. And the result is what we have seen in the first five issues, because it's actually Wolverine's actions that have caused Ultron to take over the world in the first place... plus all the good things that Pym did and that now is not around to do.

    I could -and probably- be totally wrong about this, but it would be an original twist on things.

  8. #308
    Member OberonOsiris's Avatar
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    Maybe the writer is hoping for a Butterfly effect that redeems Pym by removing certain aspects such as slapping Wasp around and faking the threat that got him booted out (circa Avengers # 230 I think?).

    If Wolverine, or anyone else returns to the past to correct Pym's murder, perhaps *that* will overwrite/rewrite the MU. I'm not sure if I could see an example, but it comes to mind that if somehow Pym does not create Ultron... maybe he invents something else, the perfect Toaster-oven, but then he never undergoes the various mental problems, never hits Jan,e tc. etc.

    And if perhaps Ultron's non-history really can't be stopped, perhaps it could be altered too; maybe it is someone else who finishes Ultron... but someone not as talented and this Ultron is easier to contain.
    "Mmmmmmm, Namor" - Celebrating Cold Water's Appreciation of All Things Namor

  9. #309
    Science is fun Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venom Melendez View Post
    But he's just as arrogant. All Marvel Super Scientist are arrogant, they share that with Doom.

    If written correctly, Pym would have taken their warning as a challenge and created Ultron anyway. That would also be true if it was Richards, Stark,etc.
    I agree with you that he could have taken it as a challenge. Yes, he is like that. But to say that he is arrogant because of that is not true. His motivation have always been to make the world a better place, and to prove to himself, and to the world, that he can do great things. It's not as arrogance as it is an inferiority complex that had been with him for ages. I think he kind of got over that only after Janet "died", and he founded Avengers Academy, after he realized that he didn't have to try so hard always to be better that he actually is. Oh, and during his time on the West Coast Avengers, he was fine too.

    So no, he's not arrogant because, contrary to Stark, who thinks himself the best thing since slice bread, Pym actually thinks he's not that great himself and has to prove himself to others all the time. Richards could be called "arrogant" from time to time, as I have seen him belittle others because he's SOOOOOO more intelligent than them...

  10. #310
    Elder Member celticguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    Was Tigra raped? I thought that she was only beat up.

    At any rate it comes yes I do want more from the story. I do want the writer to work hard and I don't get the feeling that Bendis is working very hard on this story. When a character tromps off across the desert to seek a treasure it's an interesting story. When a character tromps off acorss the desert in search of treasure and ignores the fact that he's got a helicopter that can carry him across the desert I call that lazy writing and that is in my opinion what I see here. Going back in time to commit a murder on the off chance that it might makes things better and ignoring all of the other things you can do with a time machine is in my opinion lazy writing. Bendis wanted the scene where Hank is killed, he wants to take the story in another direction and he doesn't want to do any hard work to get there. That is how I see it.
    I though they implied rape but it has been a while I might be remembering wrong either way it hold with beat up. Tehy say flat out in the book they are doing this because it has to be better than now. Logan admits he does not know it will make a better world just he cannot imagine it being worse. I don't know the next step will the world be worse for having no Hank? I expect it will that the good he has done will out weigh the bad but it could go another way.

    If you cannot see why they would try this especially Logan then that is on you it is in the books. Sue's grief is in the book when she is looking at the FF on the monitors. It is there you don't have to like it but it is dishonest to pretend it is not there. She is conflicted at least enough to not stop Logan that is a perfectly understandable human response.

    To use your example a character looking for treasure in a desert might easily choose to look on foot if they have no idea where it is. Looking for a treasure by copter is not always easier and could lead the character to fly right over it. To have them fly right over the spot where the treasure might be considered lazy since it would be done to get to the treasure quickly and move the story to the next act. It is like when the bad guy stops under the exact tree the good guy is waiting for them to stop under. obviously that happened to move the action along.

  11. #311
    Elder Member celticguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OberonOsiris View Post
    Maybe the writer is hoping for a Butterfly effect that redeems Pym by removing certain aspects such as slapping Wasp around and faking the threat that got him booted out (circa Avengers # 230 I think?).

    If Wolverine, or anyone else returns to the past to correct Pym's murder, perhaps *that* will overwrite/rewrite the MU. I'm not sure if I could see an example, but it comes to mind that if somehow Pym does not create Ultron... maybe he invents something else, the perfect Toaster-oven, but then he never undergoes the various mental problems, never hits Jan,e tc. etc.

    And if perhaps Ultron's non-history really can't be stopped, perhaps it could be altered too; maybe it is someone else who finishes Ultron... but someone not as talented and this Ultron is easier to contain.
    It may be bigger than that this might take the responsibility of Ultron off Hanks shoulders. If Ultron still exists and Hank is dead then what ever made Ultron the way he is was not Hank's doing. They could lay the evil aspect of Ultron on Loki or someone else who was using Hank to get back at the Avengers. A long shot but possible.

    I do think Sue knows Reed well enough to know he would be cocky enough to think he could fix his mistakes Stark certainly would, BP, Hank at this point is young enough to think he could fix it I don't see it as a stretch.

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkingbird13 View Post
    Or an Ultron from another timeline realised that it would be easier to take a world without Hank on it.

    Or someone had a copy of Hank's brain patterns and tried to create Ultron to carry on his work.

    Or Hank somehow survived, created Ultron and, because of Hank having almost been killed by Wolverine, Ultron is worse than ever.
    We all know for a fact that Pym created Ultron based on his own brainpatterns... but did he really? At the time, Ultron had somehow erased his memory of ever having built it, and Hank had to use a gizmo to recall his memory of those events. A gizmo that was in HIS LAB where he had created Ultron and that he had left unattended for days after the first attack of Ultron, allowing the robot to come back and upgrade itself without interruption. What is to say that Ultron did not put false memories into that gizmo, making Hank believe he created it when if fact it was someone else... let's say Diablo, the guy who built the first Dragon Man and wanted to build an entire army of Dragon Men to "force an entire planet to grovel at his feet" like he said. I can't shake the feeling that this Dragon Man thing isn't just a milestone to pinpoint the time when Pym created Ultron, but that it has more to do to this story...

    But since it's Bendis who's been writing this story, he probably never heard of Dragon Man before... and doesn't really care either.

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by celticguy View Post
    It may be bigger than that this might take the responsibility of Ultron off Hanks shoulders. If Ultron still exists and Hank is dead then what ever made Ultron the way he is was not Hank's doing. They could lay the evil aspect of Ultron on Loki or someone else who was using Hank to get back at the Avengers. A long shot but possible.

    I do think Sue knows Reed well enough to know he would be cocky enough to think he could fix his mistakes Stark certainly would, BP, Hank at this point is young enough to think he could fix it I don't see it as a stretch.
    Totally agree with you there.

  14. #314
    Senior Member SomeBodyAtCBR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbcb314 View Post
    Only took 6 issues of freaking set up but it seems now we are getting to the "interesting" category.

    Why would super assassin Logan have problems killing Pym though?
    My sentiments exactly. My friend who buys into this crap "to be a completest" and loves Bendis felt the same way too. Except he'll exempt the fact that last 6 weeks of this series was complete and utter garbage and a waste of his time reading. This should have been issue 3 of a 6 issue series. Why did Bendis feel the need to pad...er..."build" out the dystopian future these guys were in for half the series if they won't return to it? He could have done the same easily in 2 issues if he got rid of all those pointless widescreen pages. Without losing any of the character/world building beats he started with.

  15. #315
    Elder Member vitruvian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Sue has dealt with this time travel scenario before. Her brother used a time machine after Sue was killed by an other dimensional entity. She's just doing what her brother did.
    Who did Johnny kill, or allow to be killed?

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