View Poll Results: How would it have changed them?

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  • Revolutionary Wolverine

    5 4.13%
  • Revolutionary Havok

    5 4.13%
  • Revolutionary Storm

    10 8.26%
  • whoever it would have been would have became the same as scott

    13 10.74%
  • the mutant race would have died

    88 72.73%
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  1. #646
    Humans, after all. People Of The Earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anthony_lynch15 View Post
    While I do agree with this.

    I am confused by the fact that you say

    If you believe Hope was the only person who could give up the Phoenix Force why wonder why Cyclops didn't try to give it up?While I don't know if he could or could not release the power. If you believe it why ask the question.

    I believe that he was too intoxicated by it to give it up.
    He had all this power, believed he could control it, tried to do good things with it.
    But when the going got tough he couldn't control it any more & he went Dark Phoenix.
    My point was to demonstrate that Summers was willing to use this force, hence responsible for the decision to keep it after Stark forced it onto him and the others.
    If he hadn't been willing to use the Phoenix Force, then he would have, at the very least, tried to break away from it at some point of the story - even if it was deemed to fail because of the plot making Hope the only person on Earth effectively capable of breaking away from the PF.

    Quote Originally Posted by antiochene View Post
    You can repeat your opinions until you're blue in the face. It doesn't magically transform them into cold, hard facts, whatever you might like to believe.

    Here are a few things you seem to be determined to overlook:
    1) If Scott and the P5 had no intention of eventually giving Hope the Phoenix force so that she could restart the mutant race, why did they take her with them on the moon? Why did they tell the Avengers they were taking her back to heal her and prepare her? Why did they chase her so determinedly when she left Utopia with the Avengers? People look at that scene with Hope and Scott, and they assume that's Scott telling her, conclusively, "You're not worthy", instead of Scott telling her "You really screwed this up and need to grow up before you take this responsibility on yourself". The latter, incidentally, is how the issue's writer described it in an interview. It's a bit embarassing that he had to spell that out for people, frankly, because most of the next couple of issues of AvX make no sense if you don't assume that they were chasing Hope because they figured she still had work to do.
    Sooo... According to what you say, the P5 wanted to "determinedly" prepare her to become host of the Phoenix.
    But in the same time, Summers expressedly said she was free to walk away out of Utopia if she ever felt like it.
    My question is then:

    Does it sound like to you someone willing to prepare her for bearing the mantle?

    The fact that she was showed hanging around in Utopia doing NOTHING while being there further this impression.
    Or am I suppose to believe her doing someone's hair while Scott read a book in another room is part of her "determined" preparation by the P5? (sic)

    Eff to that.

    It just shows how dedicated Summers and the other P5 were willing to prepare her, in order to give her the PF back : not so much.

    Quote Originally Posted by antiochene View Post
    2) Which host did the Phoenix drive insane prior to this business with the P5? Well, there's... um... still trying to think... arguably Korvus's ancestor? Maybe? Of course, he might simply have been a dick who liked blowing up Shi'ar fleets. More seriously, the only "insane" Phoenix was the Dark Phoenix, who was either the Phoenix force masquerading as Jean (post-retcon) or Jean who was driven mad not by the Phoenix but by Mastermind pushing her over the edge while she was the Phoenix host. Assuming you go with the pre-retcon version, that still means that the only Phoenix host to go insane prior to AvX went insane because a human messed with her head. Not because the Phoenix force itself was "fated" to drive her insane. So precisely how was Scott to know he was an "unsuitable" host, destined to be "consumed by the power"?
    Huh... really?
    This reasoning is a dead-end.

    I mean, if Summers was believing Hope and the Phoenix Force were destined to each other, how could he have possibly thought that anyone else was suited to wield the Phoenix Force other than Hope?

    It's the basest logic here.

    Quote Originally Posted by antiochene View Post
    To be fair, your reading of Scott's risk assessment re: the Phoenix is actually not all that flawed if all you've read is AvX. It may even be the safer route to take, given what a hash the storyline made of Phoenix-related X-history. But it is certainly not the only interpretation to be made, and if you do pay attention to continuity and to the logic (such as it was) of the AvX storyline itself, a lot of what you have to say simply doesn't work.
    Other interpretations can be made, I never said the countrary.

    But it's a bit far-fetched to consider "cold, hard facts" arguments crumbling onto themselves when one's taking the time to discuss them a little.
    Last edited by People Of The Earth; 04-23-2013 at 07:40 AM.

  2. #647
    What is, is. antiochene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    Sooo... According to what you say, the P5 wanted to "determinedly" prepare her to become host of the Phoenix.
    But in the same time, Summers expressedly said she was free to walk away out of Utopia if she ever felt like it.
    My question is then:

    Does it sound like to you someone willing to prepare her for bearing the mantle?

    The fact that she was showed hanging around in Utopia doing NOTHING while being there further this impression.
    Or am I suppose to believe her doing someone's hair while Scott read a book in another room is part of her "determined" preparation by the P5? (sic)
    Eff to that.
    It just shows how dedicated Summers and the other P5 were willing to prepare her, in order to give her the PF back : not so much.



    Huh... really?
    This reasoning is a dead-end.
    I mean, if Summers was believing Hope and the Phoenix Force were destined to each other, how could he have possibly thought that anyone else was suited to wield the Phoenix Force other than Hope?

    It's the basest logic here.



    Other interpretations can be made, I never said the countrary.
    But it's a bit far-fetched to consider "cold, hard facts" arguments crumbling onto themselves when one's taking the time to discuss them a little.
    So I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you arguing that Scott and the P5 didn't intend (at the outset; note, I'm not making any arguments as to his state of mind at the end) to give Hope the Phoenix force because... they didn't act like they were going to force it upon her? Remember, on the moon they said Hope needed to heal. You think maybe that resting, being with her friends, thinking about what happened to get her to this point might not be intended to accomplish that?

    As for your point about how Cyclops should have known he wasn't fit because Hope was the intended host... he's, uh, seen/heard of plenty of other hosts. The Phoenix is hardly monogamous. Your logic is escaping me yet again. You're also overlooking the fact that the Phoenix itself, if it believed Hope needed to heal (and given that the P5 were talking in spooky collective-voice on the moon rather than registering individual opinions on the subject, that's not out of the question) might not have been in a huge rush to transfer itself to her either.

  3. #648
    Senior Member anthony_lynch15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antiochene View Post
    Of course one shouldn't have to consult a writer's interview to know what's going on. Don't mistake anything I said for approval of the execution of... well, anything in the cluster#&$% that was AvX. But when certain pieces of information are put out there (ie, "Whoops, we didn't make it clear that the P5 couldn't repower mutantkind"), clinging to a conflicting interpretation as hard as some of the posters in this thread have been clinging doesn't make a lot of sense.
    Okay, I understand where you're coming from now.

    Quote Originally Posted by antiochene View Post
    But still, if you look at the dialogue and actions surrounding Hope's disappearance from Utopia, not just in the main AvX series but Uncanny, it's pretty clear that the P5 knew she was still going to be needed. In Uncanny they actually opt to leave her with the Avengers while they deal with Sinister, because they know the Avengers will keep her safe in the interim. Why would they do that if their worry was that she would be used against them?
    It only reads to me that they think she'll be necessary further down the road some of the time (which boils down to the the cluster#&$% that was AvX).
    Unfortunately that means the Phoenix Five came across power possessed a lot during AVX.
    They wanted Hope safe, but they didn't want her to be used as a weapon against them.

    Anyway, I kinda like your thoughts on Scott meaning "You really screwed this up and need to grow up before you take this responsibility on yourself".
    So I think I'll keep both interpretations in my head.
    Always nice to have balancing viewpoints.

  4. #649

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    Quote Originally Posted by keeper444 View Post
    I agree that deads and casualities are not allways shown on panel, but there are references when not shown. Black Panther makes a reference that many died when Namor attacked Wakanda (in the illuminati, I think), but in 3 comics when Beast, Cap and Alex were throwing every single mistake at Cyclops, nobody ever said anything about any casualty outside of Prof X. Any X-men will be more mad at Scott about the loss of innocent lives than the life or Professor X. He was an X-man and knew the risk, but again zero references. At the charges that Cap thrown at Scott never was the dead of anybody outside Professor X.
    Exactly. When they try to arrest Scott, it's for the death of Xavier. That's all Beast and Logan mention, too.

    If many more died then those heroes are pretty reprehensible. I didn't think Cap could be any worse than when he chose to arrogantly gloat while Wakanda was flooded ... to the point where he had to be told to try and help. But if anyone else died and all anyone mentions or cares about is Xavier, well that's even more messed up.

  5. #650
    Senior Member anthony_lynch15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    My point was to demonstrate that Summers was willing to use this force, hence responsible for the decision to keep it after Stark forced it onto him and the others.
    If he hadn't been willing to use the Phoenix Force, then he would have, at the very least, tried to break away from it at some point of the story - even if it was deemed to fail because of the plot making Hope the only person on Earth effectively capable of breaking away from the PF.
    Okay, I get what you're saying now.
    You wanted a scene or panel where Scott attempted to give it the Phoenix (or mentioned it) but finds out that he can't get rid of it.
    And since that scene isn't in there it means that he was relishing the power & making a concious decision to to keep it from the get go.

    I took the being unable to give up the Phoenix thing to mean that the characters wouldn't even be able to consciously want to give it up.
    But I get what you mean now. You took it as a more physical inability to release the power.
    I can see where you're coming from with your interpretation when you say Scott chose it.

  6. #651
    Ghostly Roboto Ebon Phantom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    I don't get the rhetoric of "I'm OK with being in prison, but if it ever goes against my personal agenda ('cause I'm the one and only person who can save mutantkind out there, everyone else is irrelevant), or if it doesn't work that well for me inside ('cause I'm being bullied by my teamates in there, never heard of prisons being this rough to inmates before, it's too much !!), then I don't give a shit anymore and get to simply walk away, you know? Bye suckerzzz!".
    Nope, doesn't work for me.
    Prisoners don't get to decide whever or not it's time for them to end their time in prison because eh, they've got "more important things that need to be done". You don't justify jailbreak this way.
    It doesn't work like that in France, and I can only assume that it doesn't work like that in the US either.
    If not, well, my mistake.
    First off, those weren't the reasons he choose to escape. He left because it was made clear he wasn't gonna be given a trial, but was being set up to be killed. In that situation, there's absolutely no reason for him to stay in jail and die when there are more important things that needed to be done. Secondly, you have to actually be charged with a crime to be sent to jail. As we were told, their actions under the Phoenix were questionable but not exactly illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sundowhn View Post
    Those arcs were written in such a way that how they came across was open to interpretation. Readers formed an opinion based on who they related to. He was dictatorial. His isolationist tactic was not to completely cut mutants off from the world entirely, but to isolate them on their own little island, declare it independent of outside laws and tell everyone else that if they didn't care for it, find someone else to lead or leave. His position was uncompromising. Once he made this move, and brought the X-Men to this stalemate point, then he offered to allow an election. That's a general getting his army onto position in the field then saying, "okay, anyone who doesn't like it, step forward and you can get us out of this mess."

    Even Storm, who theoretically was being written to keep an eye on Scott, was never allowed dialogue to really challenge his authority. The only ones who were were those who left, or Xavier of course, who is dead.
    No, they really weren't. How was he dictatorial? I think you're confusing that with being strict. And there were no isolationist tactics. The whole reason he created Utopia (which got approved by half the UN) was to protect them from Norman's forces, but never prevented them from coming or going. Nor did he declare them independent of outside laws.

    Again, he didn't tell anyone to leave. Logan was the one who decided that he wanted to leave. The only reason he mentioned elections then was that no one ever argued against his leadership before. And Storm challenged him on X-force, of which he shut down afterward. Again, the opposite of a dictator.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sundowhn View Post
    No, what I saw was her discovering the five lights, who amounted to not much of anything. The PF later restored mutantkind, at the end of AvX. Maybe she was intended to be shown as some kind of messiah, but the writing was such that I wasn't convinced. At all.
    It was made quite clear that Hope's phoenix flaring was what triggered their mutations, which is why she was needed to prefect them. It was a whole little storyline about how because of that, she had unnatural control over them. And it was more then just five, there were seven.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sundowhn View Post
    So once Hope decided to leave, to choose to go with the Avengers, Scott didn't go after her? As far as Avengers taking Hope and what Cable told him -- that certainly came to pass, but it was Scott that did the burning.
    After they had been implanted with the Phoenix and begun to fix the world, Scott allowed her to go with Wanda for some time, before he later became concerned and went after her. And no, Scott didn't do the burning that Cable allured to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sundowhn View Post
    They gave them an ultimatum. The price for their benevolence was for everyone to do as they said. If you don't take issue with that train of thought, then I expect TJean jimmying with TAngel's mind recently wasn't bothersome, either.
    Um, no. The ultimatum was simply stop war or else. They were allowed to continue doing anything else. They didn't command them to do anything beyond that. And that's clearly completely different then what Teen Jean did to Teen Warren.

    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    Sooo... According to what you say, the P5 wanted to "determinedly" prepare her to become host of the Phoenix.
    But in the same time, Summers expressedly said she was free to walk away out of Utopia if she ever felt like it.
    My question is then:

    Does it sound like to you someone willing to prepare her for bearing the mantle?

    The fact that she was showed hanging around in Utopia doing NOTHING while being there further this impression.
    Or am I suppose to believe her doing someone's hair while Scott read a book in another room is part of her "determined" preparation by the P5? (sic)

    Eff to that.

    It just shows how dedicated Summers and the other P5 were willing to prepare her, in order to give her the PF back : not so much.
    Or it was simply they saw no reason to rush. Everything was going perfectly for them as they made the world better for everyone, so why bring mutants back before they finished?

    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    Huh... really?
    This reasoning is a dead-end.

    I mean, if Summers was believing Hope and the Phoenix Force were destined to each other, how could he have possibly thought that anyone else was suited to wield the Phoenix Force other than Hope?

    It's the basest logic here.
    Hope was believed to be destined to bring back mutantkind, not simply use the Phoenix. There have been numerous people who have used the Phoenix Force without much trouble, something Scott would have known.

  7. #652

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sundowhn View Post
    Those arcs were written in such a way that how they came across was open to interpretation. Readers formed an opinion based on who they related to. He was dictatorial. His isolationist tactic was not to completely cut mutants off from the world entirely, but to isolate them on their own little island, declare it independent of outside laws and tell everyone else that if they didn't care for it, find someone else to lead or leave. His position was uncompromising. Once he made this move, and brought the X-Men to this stalemate point, then he offered to allow an election. That's a general getting his army onto position in the field then saying, "okay, anyone who doesn't like it, step forward and you can get us out of this mess."
    You understand that everyone followed Scott to Utopia of their own free will, right? He didn't "bring the X-Men" to any point, they went to it with him. The entire school, staff and students alike, had dispersed and they all chose to come back together under Scott's leadership in San Francisco... until San Francisco was no longer an option for anyone but the suicidal. At no point, not a single one, did anyone else pipe up with an alternative.

    In the midst of being mercilessly attacked by bigots is not the time to stop and say, "You know, I don't want to be leader just because I'm the first to pipe up with an idea, so howzabout we meet in the gymnasium next Tuesday after school for a debate, and hold off on figuring out how to raise money for our Senior Trip and what do bout all these hate-filled-pychos-trying-to-kill-us-and-the-US government-trampling-our-civil-liberties whosiewhatsitz until after a new Class President has been elected in Home Room on Wednesday?".

  8. #653
    The Alpha and The Omega Godlike13's Avatar
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    Ha, ha, ha do u know what, nevermind. I got better shit to do.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 04-23-2013 at 06:23 PM.

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