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  1. #136
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneNecromancer View Post
    Given that Post-Crisis Superman spent far too much time being an irritating emo depressed about his powers, a person who was all about what he couldn't do, New 52 Superman is a huge improvement. He loves what he does. He pushes his powers to the brink and back to save people. He does the impossible when no one else can.
    I think it's just as much an exaggeration to say Post-Crisis Superman was "emo depressed about his powers" and "all about what he couldn't do" as it is to say New 52 Superman's anti-establishment ethos is akin to civilian terrorist attacks on abortion clinics. Post-Crisis Superman pushed his powers to the brink to save and people; he did the impossible when no one else could.
    "I love that she’s human. You need that juxtaposed to the perfection of Superman. [Lois] has this absolute loyalty for what is good and just, and it parallels what Superman is." – Erica Durance

  2. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneNecromancer View Post
    No it isn't. There's a huge difference between carrying out abortions and actually going around beating/murdering people. You can apply that argument to any superhero possible. Why doesn't Batman do that? He beats up criminals. Why not Green Lantern? So does he. Why not Wonder Woman? Why not Flash? Why not Aquaman? I'll tell you why, cos that's not a comparison all, it's bullcrap.
    This version of Superman was introduced as a character who didn't care about what the law said, he cares about punishing evil doers.

    Try to stay with me here. If a character who doesn't care what the law says and just does whatever he thinks is right happens to think abortion is murder, then what do you think he would do? He would destroy clinics (evacuating the people first) and beat up doctors who were performing them especially since abortion is not illegal (and thus Superman could never count on being able to simply apprehend the doctors).

    This Superman would be that character if he thought abortion was murder. And frankly thats not much of a stretch. The country is split nearly 50/50 on that issue and Superman grew up in the Bible Belt. He can also see and hear unborn babies thanks to his super-senses. There isn't much difference between this Superman and my hypothetical one.


    Quote Originally Posted by LoneNecromancer View Post
    Given that Post-Crisis Superman spent far too much time being an irritating emo depressed about his powers, a person who was all about what he couldn't do, New 52 Superman is a huge improvement. He loves what he does. He pushes his powers to the brink and back to save people. He does the impossible when no one else can.
    I agree with you up to the point where you say that New Superman is a huge improvement. I was actually encouraged by his first appearance in the new Justice League because he had some attitude and the hints of a sense of fun about him but it all went down hill very quickly. Taking more joy in your work is not the same as saying ftw and throwing out the rulebook.

    And they could have fixed his attitude without rebooting him. In fact some writers handled that well. Kurt Busiek, Grant Morrison (ironically, I loved absolutely everything Morrison did with Superman up until Action Comics #1), Mark Waid, Jeph Loeb (at first, at least it was an improvement over the burned out team he replaced), even the original Byrne take on Post Crisis Superman had a bit of a sense of humor about him.

    Its funny you mention the emo thing because thats exactly how New Superman (and Clark) comes off in Superman #1. He's brooding because he can't be with Lois, because the Planet is moving from print to broadcast, because the paper is being bought by the company that used to have a corrupt CEO at the helm (I don't know how that has played out since issue number one, but IN issue number one, Clark has no reason to dislike the merger other than that the company USED to be run by a bad guy. Even Lois was convinced in that issue that the problems with that company were behind them)
    Last edited by KingDragonlord; 04-09-2013 at 10:00 AM.

  3. #138
    It's Lexrules... GET HIM. Lexrules's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingDragonlord View Post
    This version of Superman was introduced as a character who didn't care about what the law said, he cares about punishing evil doers.

    Try to stay with me here. If a character who doesn't care what the law says and just does whatever he thinks is right happens to think abortion is murder, then what do you think he would do? He would destroy clinics (evacuating the people first) and beat up doctors who were performing them especially since abortion is not illegal (and thus Superman could never count on being able to simply apprehend the doctors).

    This Superman would be that character if he thought abortion was murder. And frankly thats not much of a stretch. The country is split nearly 50/50 on that issue and Superman grew up in the Bible Belt. He can also see and hear unborn babies thanks to his super-senses. There isn't much difference between this Superman and my hypothetical one.




    I agree with you up to the point where you say that New Superman is a huge improvement. I was actually encouraged by his first appearance in the new Justice League because he had some attitude and the hints of a sense of fun about him but it all went down hill very quickly. Taking more joy in your work is not the same as saying ftw and throwing out the rulebook.

    And they could have fixed his attitude without rebooting him. In fact some writers handled that well. Kurt Busiek, Grant Morrison (ironically, I loved absolutely everything Morrison did with Superman up until Action Comics #1), Mark Waid, Jeph Loeb (at first, at least it was an improvement over the burned out team he replaced), even the original Byrne take on Post Crisis Superman had a bit of a sense of humor about him.

    Its funny you mention the emo thing because thats exactly how New Superman (and Clark) comes off in Superman #1. He's brooding because he can't be with Lois, because the Planet is moving from print to broadcast, because the paper is being bought by the company that used to have a corrupt CEO at the helm (I don't know how that has played out since issue number one, but IN issue number one, Clark has no reason to dislike the merger other than that the company USED to be run by a bad guy. Even Lois was convinced in that issue that the problems with that company were behind them)
    Things I NEVER want to see from my favorite comic book character. Things of what would Superman do if he were real is not what I want to see in a Superman comic book. Superman fighting Lex Luthor and Bizarro is what I want to see not Superman going into a Abortion clinic and destroying the place. Why anyone would want to ever see that in a Superman comic book is beyond me and scares me to no end.
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  4. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingDragonlord View Post
    This version of Superman was introduced as a character who didn't care about what the law said, he cares about punishing evil doers.
    You make it sound like he's the Punisher.
    He cared about using his powers for good. He cared about saving lives, he cared about rebuilding homes, he cared about people abused and downtrodden, he cared about finding ways to deal with poverty...

    He just put his trust in action to enact it.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingDragonlord View Post
    Try to stay with me here. If a character who doesn't care what the law says and just does whatever he thinks is right
    You mean like a superhero?

    Quote Originally Posted by KingDragonlord View Post
    happens to think abortion is murder, then what do you think he would do? He would destroy clinics (evacuating the people first) and beat up doctors who were performing them especially since abortion is not illegal (and thus Superman could never count on being able to simply apprehend the doctors).
    Well then, luckily he doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingDragonlord View Post
    This Superman would be that character if he thought abortion was murder. And frankly thats not much of a stretch. The country is split nearly 50/50 on that issue and Superman grew up in the Bible Belt.
    So? He could also be a racist or a zealot if he thought those were right too. But again, he doesn't. Cos he's Superman.

    You're applying real-world logic to superheroes and it doesn't make sense. Yes, people overly dedicated to their causes are called zealots in the real world, and people take matters into their own hands are called vigilantes and criminal here. And yes, such people often have causes you won't agree with. But that's not how the world works in comics.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingDragonlord View Post
    He can also see and hear unborn babies thanks to his super-senses.
    He'll see a cluster of cells that will grow into a human in about nine months, but he won't hear much more than a heartbeat until several months in.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingDragonlord View Post
    There isn't much difference between this Superman and my hypothetical one.
    I think the real thing I've learnt is that you just don't like superheroes, if you're that opposed to people in fiction breaking the law to do what they think is right.

    You know what I'm reminded of with your hypothetical situation? That other thread where some guy is talking about how one of his friends doesn't like Superman cos if anyone had that much power he'd just use them to have sex with every woman he likes. Yeah I mean why couldn't Superman do that if he thought it was his right cos it would be best if Earth was populated by Kryptonian/human hybrids.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingDragonlord View Post
    I agree with you up to the point where you say that New Superman is a huge improvement. I was actually encouraged by his first appearance in the new Justice League because he had some attitude and the hints of a sense of fun about him but it all went down hill very quickly. Taking more joy in your work is not the same as saying ftw and throwing out the rulebook.

    And they could have fixed his attitude without rebooting him. In fact some writers handled that well. Kurt Busiek, Grant Morrison (ironically, I loved absolutely everything Morrison did with Superman up until Action Comics #1), Mark Waid, Jeph Loeb (at first, at least it was an improvement over the burned out team he replaced), even the original Byrne take on Post Crisis Superman had a bit of a sense of humor about him.
    Oh, I agree. Some writers really made Superman work in the Post-Crisis period. No one can forget All-Star Superman, Red Son, JLA, etc.

    But when we're talking outside those lucky stars, well, this is the impression I have of Post-Crisis Superman.



    Quote Originally Posted by KingDragonlord View Post
    Its funny you mention the emo thing because thats exactly how New Superman (and Clark) comes off in Superman #1. He's brooding because he can't be with Lois, because the Planet is moving from print to broadcast, because the paper is being bought by the company that used to have a corrupt CEO at the helm (I don't know how that has played out since issue number one, but IN issue number one, Clark has no reason to dislike the merger other than that the company USED to be run by a bad guy. Even Lois was convinced in that issue that the problems with that company were behind them)
    Yeah, and no one liked Perez's Superman issues, it felt dated from the start and most of it has been since thrown out, ignored or retconned or just eh who cares, because no one does care.

  5. #140
    Unreasonably Opinionated Conway's Avatar
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    I'm wondering what people are reading? Didn't Superman threaten to "Burn out the bad parts of [a child molester's] brain" (i.e. punching the wife-beater in the face)? He also stopped himself from punishing a meta that just wanted a locket of her mother, while saving someone that was mistaken for him. He told the General that he didn't work for him, and he thanked Steel for watching out for the people of Metropolis. We are getting plenty of boy-scout and anti-establishment Superman.

    This issue has him acting against a recognized government to protect oppressed masses. If the country is trading with Lex, then it has UN and US support, but he's still taking a stand. I'm not sure what version of Superman people think is missing.

  6. #141
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    This Superman would be that character if he thought abortion was murder. And frankly thats not much of a stretch. The country is split nearly 50/50 on that issue and Superman grew up in the Bible Belt. He can also see and hear unborn babies thanks to his super-senses. There isn't much difference between this Superman and my hypothetical one.

  7. #142
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneNecromancer View Post
    Given that Post-Crisis Superman spent far too much time being an irritating emo depressed about his powers, a person who was all about what he couldn't do, New 52 Superman is a huge improvement. He loves what he does. He pushes his powers to the brink and back to save people. He does the impossible when no one else can.
    He only felt frustration at the things that he couldn't do, such as solve all the world's problems as easily as he could stop an alien invasion. He was frustrated that he couldn't end world hunger and his efforts went poorly. He was frustrated when the first time he dealt with domestic abuse, which used Action Comics #1, resulted in the guy turning around and killing his wife three days later, when she went to leave her husband. And later, he was frustrated when confronted again with it, that there was nothing that he could do legally. And since his last efforts resulted in a woman's death, he was at an impasse as to what to do. Stuff like that bothered him, because the solutions weren't as obvious and had far too many entanglements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin
    But Superman puts himself above the law the moment he decides to wear his fancy pants to substitute himself to the police and fight crime.
    And don't give that "normal citizens are allowed to make an arrest" nonsense'. That doesn't give him the right to involve himself in hostage situations . That doesn't give him the right to attack a supervillain in his hide-out (violation of privacy, no warrant- welcome back to the outside world, Toyman). For these things only, Superman would be considered an outlaw and a vigilante by any tribunal.
    Except that wasn't that simple either. Superman had become a deputized officer, who could make an arrest like that without having to follow the normal rules of procedure. And it was later established that the government gave the metahuman community leeway when it came to bringing in criminals. Before that had happened, he was more or less an outlaw, but was given a free pass because he was on the right side of the law.

    Finally, I'm not sure why we're having this conversation. This issue's Superman was on his way to burn down a weapon hiddeout in a foreign country, something "classic" Sup would pretend he can't because it's out of his jurisdiction or whatever.
    He couldn't do it because he would be considered an instrument of the US foreign policy, sent to intentionally violate the laws of a particular land and would be deemed an act of war. And this was after he had been manipulated into doing that very thing. Which later became an issue as we saw in "52" with the Great Ten and the Rocket Reds poised to attack anyone who didn't belong and were trying to arrest criminals who had come into their countries.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    Except that wasn't that simple either. Superman had become a deputized officer, who could make an arrest like that without having to follow the normal rules of procedure. And it was later established that the government gave the metahuman community leeway when it came to bringing in criminals. Before that had happened, he was more or less an outlaw, but was given a free pass because he was on the right side of the law.
    Yeah see this is the Superman I really dislike, Superman as an authoritarian. Much prefer New 52 Superman as antiestablishment.

  9. #144
    It's Lexrules... GET HIM. Lexrules's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supergod View Post
    Yeah see this is the Superman I really dislike, Superman as an authoritarian. Much prefer New 52 Superman as antiestablishment.
    And why we will never see anything related to Superman eye to eye.
    Originally Posted by Francisco
    In a few years no one other that some aging fanboys like you would remember anything about the Donner film.

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  10. #145
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supergod View Post
    Yeah see this is the Superman I really dislike, Superman as an authoritarian. Much prefer New 52 Superman as antiestablishment.
    Being anti-establishment and authoritarian aren't mutually exclusive. Superman could become an anti-establishment authoritarian, essentially making himself the establishment. He would decide what rules, laws, and governments he deems fit to respect. Injustice: Gods Among Us, I believe, is exploring an extreme version of this concept.
    "I love that she’s human. You need that juxtaposed to the perfection of Superman. [Lois] has this absolute loyalty for what is good and just, and it parallels what Superman is." – Erica Durance

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Being anti-establishment and authoritarian aren't mutually exclusive. Superman could become an anti-establishment authoritarian, essentially making himself the establishment. He would decide what rules, laws, and governments he deems fit to respect. Injustice: Gods Among Us, I believe, is exploring an extreme version of this concept.
    You say they aren't mutually exclusive, and then you point out the irony there. Besides, that only works in elseworlds stories.

  12. #147
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supergod View Post
    You say they aren't mutually exclusive, and then you point out the irony there. Besides, that only works in elseworlds stories.
    Yes, the irony is that once Superman decides that his rules are the only ones worth following, he has made himself the de facto establishment. Elseworld stories may be the only place that Superman taking his anti-establishment to such an extreme that he becomes an authoritarian dictator. However, every time Superman in the New 52 or any continuity is placing his authority above the authority of others with no debate, discussion, or referendum, he is behaving in a manner analogous to an authoritarian. An authoritarian emphasizes arbitrary law over established laws and sometimes operates independently of rules; an authoritarian operates under the belief that their rules are the right rules. An authoritarian is not constitutionally responsible to the public. When Superman disobeys the law, he is making himself the arbiter of what is law. He is the law.
    "I love that she’s human. You need that juxtaposed to the perfection of Superman. [Lois] has this absolute loyalty for what is good and just, and it parallels what Superman is." – Erica Durance

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Yes, the irony is that once Superman decides that his rules are the only ones worth following, he has made himself the de facto establishment. Elseworld stories may be the only place that Superman taking his anti-establishment to such an extreme that he becomes an authoritarian dictator. However, every time Superman in the New 52 or any continuity is placing his authority above the authority of others with no debate, discussion, or referendum, he is behaving in a manner analogous to an authoritarian. An authoritarian emphasizes arbitrary law over established laws and sometimes operates independently of rules; an authoritarian operates under the belief that their rules are the right rules. An authoritarian is not constitutionally responsible to the public. When Superman disobeys the law, he is making himself the arbiter of what is law. He is the law.
    It depends on what extreme he takes the law, or else this would apply to every superhero period.

  14. #149
    Unreasonably Opinionated Conway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    I'm wondering what people are reading? Didn't Superman threaten to "Burn out the bad parts of [a child molester's] brain" (i.e. punching the wife-beater in the face)? He also stopped himself from punishing a meta that just wanted a locket of her mother, while saving someone that was mistaken for him. He told the General that he didn't work for him, and he thanked Steel for watching out for the people of Metropolis. We are getting plenty of boy-scout and anti-establishment Superman.

    This issue has him acting against a recognized government to protect oppressed masses. If the country is trading with Lex, then it has UN and US support, but he's still taking a stand. I'm not sure what version of Superman people think is missing.
    I'm quoting this because I still don't get what either of you aren't seeing in a Superman title. Please tell me where he is being an establishment supporting, non-boy scout.

  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conway View Post
    I'm quoting this because I still don't get what either of you aren't seeing in a Superman title. Please tell me where he is being an establishment supporting, non-boy scout.
    Huh? I was just complaining this issue was bland. My desire for an anti establishment Superman is a separate topic.

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