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  1. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman9 View Post
    I do not think that Jesus would be considered godly if other DCU characters were around. He'd be considered a magician.
    A magician that gave a new moral code to humanity, claimed to be God, did metaphysical miracles to prove it, and sent his disciples to convert the world, hence, the Messiah. His status as mystic instead metahuman is kept by the mysterious existence of the Spear of Destiny.

    Keep in mind that in the DCU most metahumans are contemporary to us, not to Jesus.

    Keep i mind that in medieval times, demons and witches were believed to be both powerful and metaphysical but they didn't affect faith, just like the mystic priest of other religions didn't convert Jews.

    The fact that faith in the DCU is the same as in the real world is canon. Just like the fact that all gods coexist in a mysterious hyerarchy along the New Gods and the Endless. The Presence seems to be Allah/God, maybe portrayed as the actual thing. The Spear of Destiny and the Holy Grail are canon and have mystical properties.

    Within that universe, I could definitively see some atheist claiming "about every JLAer died and resurrected, what makes Jesus so special" to which the Christians would reply stuff like "they are all product of science and, some revived through sorcery (as in the sorcery Christians believed witches could do), they were not really dead, etc. and none said they were God, anyway".
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    Where does the weird idea that godhood "is measured merely by powers and abilities", come from? Gods shape reality accoding to their wishes, Jesus is not the Messiah because he was the unbeatting champion of arm wrestling or because he was a mutant who gathered energy from the sun and shoot it through his eyes.
    The proof that Jesus is a prophet and the Messiah are the virgin birth and his miracles.
    As I already stated. We are to know that he is the Son of God because he has powers normal hans don't have.
    Once we have other beings among us who can do the same things, we would naturally question whether Jesus wasn't simply a meta-human. Especially when his abilities aren't all that spectacular compared to other meta-humans.
    Just because a book states that his powers game from a god, doesn't make it true.
    And, even of that much were true, doesn't make him special when there are other prophets and people with powers from gods running around.
    I have no clue how you can claim Christians don't care about that when that is precisely what they mention when trying to convince non-Christians that Jesus was Christ.
    The weird part is your claim to the contrary.

    Gods appear to shape reality according to their wishes. True.
    In ways that we assume normal humans cannot.
    Whether those beings are truly "gods" rather than powerful aliens, or meta humans or genetically enhanced humans from the distant future becomes questionable once those types of rival beings truly exist.
    Whether there is some unique supreme god also becomes questionable when other pantheons exist.
    How would we know that YHWH is not Loki lying to the Jews?

    It's through the claims of miracles "divine" punishments that humans are coerced into worshipping beings as gods.
    That's why the bible is replete with YHWH punishing people for lack of faith.
    And rewarding and promising to reward them.



    The power of the Greek gods might be confusing, because Mercury seems a speedster and Zeus and electric meta, but remember that they also modified reality according to their wishes or when they dealt with humans.
    None of that is confusing.

    The closest things to get mixed with gods are Imps like Mxy, or the Thunderbolt, but that's physics. Perhaps you're confuxed because in comics the Asgardians and the New Gods seem common superheroes... but that's the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what a god does.
    The imps and Thunderbolt is not physics. If it was physics, their magic would not affect Superman.
    Asgardians appearing as common super-heroes is precisely the problem.
    If Asgardians are just common super-heroes, the same would very likely be true of YHWH and Jesus.
    And Jesus diesn't appear to be a particularly powerful super-hero.

    Of course, Asgardians use metaphysics while the New Gods rely heavily on tech.
    We don't know what YHWH and Jesus used. They could have used psionics.
    Even if they did use metaphysics, that doesn't mean they're more powerful than the Greek/Roman gods or Egyptian gods or the 5th dimensional imps.
    Thus, it makes a great deal of sense for people living in the DCU to be atheist and polytheist rather than monotheist.
    Some people would also be monotheist, sure.
    But, the powers, abilities and claims of miracles and answering prayers is paramount.
    Can't be otherwise.

    The miracles of the bible are not supposed to be accomplished by physics (even though in reality, some might). Within the text, it's God shaping reality. Within the text of Marvel and DC, gods and mystics use metaphisics, the Guardians and Superman use "super" physics.
    I don't know that that mattered to the people of the time.
    Gods did things humans couldn't. But, sure, let's go with it shouldn't be accomplished via physics.
    So would someone prove YHWH's feats weren't accomplished via physics when so many beings can?
    It seemed to ancient people it was metaphysics, but so would Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash and the New Gods.
    Of course, Apollo used tech, like a chariot to move the Sun. Jews didn't say that means he wasn't a god.
    Rather, they said he didn't exist.

    "One merely needs to be able to wield the powers if a god and be worshipped as a god. Immortality is often a helpful attribute." WHAT? where does that even come from? The funny thing is that you act as if I was saying something odd, when you're saying the craziest thing I ever heard.
    I guess you have a poor grasp of history.
    You should know that Cortez and his men were initially thought by the Aztecs to be gods.

    I think that if anything, you're talking about godhood from the perspetive followers who ignore what's really going on.
    I don't know what that means.
    Followers of whom??

    However, even in greek mythology there are utterly powerful beings that are not venerated as gods. God are the ones that can modify reality through metaphysical means.
    Sure. Though you should probably be more specific to make the relevance clear.
    Your concept of faith is right. And that's precisely the reason for Jesus not needing to outmatch pantheons or metahumans. Some mystics might top him, but he's the only one saying that he is the answer.
    No. He's not.
    The primary reason Christianity won out over other religions and prophets making similar claims is that Constantine prayed for a sign and felt it was answered. Thereby, converting the greatest conquering army ever.
    But, that kind of proof wouldn't hold up when rival gods actually exist that can demonstrate equal or greater works.

    Yahweh/Jesus doesn't need the top "powers and abilities" because, as you put it, it's all about "Don't question. Have faith." In the end, it'd be more about winning the war than "powers and abilities". Yahweh didn't impress the pharaoh, but he beat him and delivered his promise. Jesus didn't send angels for him, but he got followers in every single place where there's sun (well technically, other religions have the same these days, put the point is in the numbers, anyway).
    That's what the bible says happened. Of course, that didn't stop the Jews from being enslaved.
    We can't find any physical or historical evidence of an Exodus.
    So, people would be relying on proof in the present that YHWH could still compete with the active Pantheons.
    And with modern day super-heroes.
    Else there would be tons more atheists and active polytheists than there are in the real world.
    Last edited by Bdiggs; 04-05-2013 at 11:45 PM.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    A magician that gave a new moral code to humanity, claimed to be God, did metaphysical miracles to prove it, and sent his disciples to convert the world, hence, the Messiah. His status as mystic instead metahuman is kept by the mysterious existence of the Spear of Destiny.

    Keep in mind that in the DCU most metahumans are contemporary to us, not to Jesus.

    Keep i mind that in medieval times, demons and witches were believed to be both powerful and metaphysical but they didn't affect faith, just like the mystic priest of other religions didn't convert Jews.

    The fact that faith in the DCU is the same as in the real world is canon. Just like the fact that all gods coexist in a mysterious hyerarchy along the New Gods and the Endless. The Presence seems to be Allah/God, maybe portrayed as the actual thing. The Spear of Destiny and the Holy Grail are canon and have mystical properties.

    Within that universe, I could definitively see some atheist claiming "about every JLAer died and resurrected, what makes Jesus so special" to which the Christians would reply stuff like "they are all product of science and, some revived through sorcery (as in the sorcery Christians believed witches could do), they were not really dead, etc. and none said they were God, anyway".
    Notice that the topic is not "does Christianity make sense in the DCU?"
    Rather it is, "does atheism make sense in the DCU?"

    If Barry had decided to present himself as Mercury, the ancient god, how would people in the DCU know that he was not?
    If Hermes states that he is the ancient god, how would people in the DCU know that he is?
    If Makkari states that he is the ancient god, how would people in the DCU know that he is?

    I suggest it makes sense that many people would be atheist and say it's all basically the same thing, though Barry might not have lived as long as he states.
    And it makes sense that many people would be polytheist and say at least one of those could have been the ancient god. And that many gods exist.
    Also makes sense that some would be monotheist, too. Sure.

    Faith in the DCU is not the same as in real life. There are certainly more polytheists.
    There's more atheism in the real world than what's depicted in the comics.
    Not surprising when the media already flips out for depicting homosexuality and leaving out the American Way.
    Promoting atheism would be a fiasco.
    Last edited by Bdiggs; 04-05-2013 at 11:42 PM. Reason: S

  4. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bdiggs View Post
    The proof that Jesus is a prophet and the Messiah are the virgin birth and is miracles.
    As I already stated. We are to know that he is the Son of God because he has powers normal hans don't have.
    Once we have other beings among us who can do the same things, we would naturally question whether Jesus wasn't simply a meta-human. Especially when his abilities aren't all that spectacular compared to other meta-humans.
    Just because a book states that his powers game from a god, doesn't make it true.
    And, even of that much were true, doesn't make him special when there are other prophets and people with powers from gods running around.
    I have no clue how you can claim Christians don't care about that when that is precisely what they mention when trying to convince non-Christians that Jesus was Christ.
    The weird part is your claim to the contrary.

    Gods appear to shape reality according to their wishes. True.
    In ways that we assume normal humans cannot.
    Whether those beings are truly "gods" rather than powerful aliens, or meta humans or genetically enhanced humans from the distant future becomes questionable once those types of rival beings truly exist.
    Whether there is some unique supreme god also becomes questionable when other pantheons exist.
    How would we know that YHWH is not Loki lying to the Jews?

    It's through the claims of miracles "divine" punishments that humans are coerced into worshipping beings as gods.
    That's why the bible is replete with YHWH punishing people for lack of faith.
    And rewarding and promising to reward them.




    None of that is confusing.


    The imps and Thunderbolt is not physics. If it was physics, their magic would not affect Superman.
    Asgardians appearing as common super-heroes is precisely the problem.
    If Asgardians are just common super-heroes, the same would very likely be true of YHWH and Jesus.
    And Jesus diesn't appear to be a particularly powerful super-hero.

    Of course, Asgardians use metaphysics while the New Gods rely heavily on tech.
    We don't know what YHWH and Jesus used. They could have used psionics.
    Even if they did use metaphysics, that doesn't mean they're more powerful than the Greek/Roman gods or Egyptian gods or the 5th dimensional imps.
    Thus, it makes a great deal of sense for people living in the DCU to be atheist and polytheist rather than monotheist.
    Some people would also be monotheist, sure.
    But, the powers, abilities and claims of miracles and answering prayers is paramount.
    Can't be otherwise.


    I don't know that that mattered to the people of the time.
    Gods did things humans couldn't. But, sure, let's go with it shouldn't be accomplished via physics.
    So would someone prove YHWH's feats weren't accomplished via physics when so many beings can?
    It seemed to ancient people it was metaphysics, but so would Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash and the New Gods.
    Of course, Apollo used tech, like a chariot to move the Sun. Jews didn't say that means he wasn't a god.
    Rather, they said he didn't exist.


    I guess you have a poor grasp of history.
    You should know that Cortez and his men were initially thought by the Aztecs to be gods.


    I don't know what that means.
    Followers of whom??


    Sure. Though you should probably be more specific to make the relevance clear.

    No. He's not.
    The primary reason Christianity won out over other religions and prophets making similar claims is that Constantine prayed for a sign and felt it was answered. Thereby, converting the greatest conquering army ever.
    But, that kind of proof wouldn't hold up when rival gods actually exist that can demonstrate equal or greater works.


    That's what the bible says happened. Of course, that didn't stop the Jews from being enslaved.
    We can't find any physical or historical evidence of an Exodus.
    So, people would be relying on proof in the present that YHWH could still compete with the active Pantheons.
    And with modern day super-heroes.
    Else there would be tons more atheists and active polytheists than there are in the real world.
    I replied to a lot of your nonsense but decided to erase in favor of what is canon. Again, you are only talking about who is a god from the perspective of those who would believe he is. Not who is actually a God. Superman and the Guardians don't fall in either category because:

    *the stories tell us they aren't gods,
    *the stories tell us nobody believes they are gods,
    *they never claimed to be gods in the stories,
    *They have never claimed knowledge of the origin of the universe, t be its creators to even know the morals that the creator expects (albeit they defend law).
    *they explain the physics of their powers in their stories.

    In the bible and within the DCU:
    *The Presence, Jesus and the Judeochristian angels and demons are canon,
    *Jesus claims to be the son of god,
    *the biggest chunk of the DC Earth's population believe he is God,
    *Jesus' powers are metaphysical (in the DCU tied to the Holy Grail and the Spear of Destiny),
    *The Spectre is the most powerful superhero and the grail and the spear about the most powerful MacGuffin. Their discreet presence is enough for regular people to keep doubts.

    In the DCU the Greek, Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Japanese, Nordic and Mayan pantheons, along the New Gods are "gods" as well. Their hierarchy among them, angels, demons and Yahweh is unknown. The Lords of Chaos and Order seem to be on their level and the Endless seem to be superior. The Presence would seem to be above all of them.

    And the stories have provided enough justification for that canon. Not claiming to be God, rejecting worship, and not giving word of God is enough for DC people to believe they are not gods. Asking for faith, providing a celestial code, claiming to be the son of God, and provide some miracles without overdoing it (no angels rescued him) is enough for DC people to consider him God (at least as many as real people).

    That covers canon for common people. For Superheroes it's easier, the JLA has Zauriel and the JSA has the Spectre. You go from there.
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
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  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    Besides metaphysics vs. physics, gods have a claim on the origin of things and demand a moral code. Ancient gods are not that explicit about morals, but you know that greek myths are usually about the sins of the characters and that in Egyptian religion your heart has to be lighter than a feather (whatever that means).
    Ancient gods are fairly explicit on morals. They aren't as obsessive as the Jews.
    Christians aren't either, which is why they toss out the majority of the laws in the Old Testament.
    Another one of the reasons Christianity became more popular than Judaism.

    Gods claim creation, sure.
    So, where you have gods from ancient pantheons appearing to prove their existence or New Gods appearing, how does one demonstrate only the monotheistic claim is true?
    How does one prove that a meta-human's claim of godhood and creation is false? Or a mystics?

  6. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bdiggs View Post
    Ancient gods are fairly explicit on morals. They aren't as obsessive as the Jews.
    Christians aren't either, which is why they toss out the majority of the laws in the Old Testament.
    Another one of the reasons Christianity became more popular than Judaism.

    Gods claim creation, sure.
    So, where you have gods from ancient pantheons appearing to prove their existence or New Gods appearing, how does one demonstrate only the monotheistic claim is true?
    How does one prove that a meta-human's claim of godhood and creation is false? Or a mystics?
    Can you back your claim on morals demanded by ancient gods?

    Agreed on Christians vs. Jews. Jesus basically tossed Deuteronmy in favor love thy neighbor as thyself and the don't judge thing. It probably became more popular because of that, the more you go back in the bible, the more jugle-style Yahweh's law is. Like lesson in progress of sorts, until Jesus reveals the real deal.

    Let's go with what we know. The biggest source is probably Sandman. All gods exists and claim the creation, ancient gods have been forgotten or deemed irrelevant. In DC's fake history, people stopped caring about those [actually real] gods as they move on to Yahweh/Jesus/Allah and the contemporary gods, who are real as well.

    The Abrahamanic God who is probably the Presence, Rao and a lot of the gods f monotheistic religions would seem to be the real deal as well as the dominant belief.

    I don't remember cases of metahumans claiming godhood in DC. If it happens there are two ways to prove him wrng: super scientists by studding his body, the same way Luthor studied Superman to know his weaknesses; mystics know. Mystics can also tell on other mystics claiming to be God. Guys like Parallax-Hal or the Guardians would be tough to tell, but Lanterns known they achieved all through technology and that they don't known the origin of the universe.
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    Prophets tend to have the equivalent power of mystic superheroes. Superman, the Martian and the rest can be explained by physics. So you can rule them out. Not the same with Dr. Fate or Prince Ra-Man, their achievements can't be explained. The mystic superheroes normally have contact with spiritual entities, which means that both prophets and mystics have contact with the metaphysical reality in the DCU. Consequently, in the DCU both prophets and mystics are considered heralds of metaphysical world with religious cred.
    No. You can't rule out Kryptonians or Martians because there's no way to demonstrate within the DCU that the prophets weren't Kryptonians or Martians or Bgztlians claiming to be prophets of a supreme being. All there is is a book claiming they were humans channeling miraculous power.
    Historically, the way ancient people proved their gods were supreme was to slaughter and enslave non-believers. Proving the might of the conquering gods over the false supremacy of the vanquished gods. Didn't work so well with the Jews because they simply said enslavement was their punishment for some transgression, but they would find salvation later - especially in the afterlife.

    But that doesn't answer how one would prove to DCU skeptics that YHWH and Jesus weren't meta-humans, aliens or Olympians pretending to be a supreme god.

    Having contact with the metaphysical world doesn't make a being a god.
    Billy Batson is probably a polytheist. Dr. Fate is probably a polytheist. Cassie Sandsmark is probably a polytheist. Carter Hall is probably a polytheist. Arthur Curry is probably a polytheist. Martian Manhunter is a polytheist. Ray Palmer is culturally Jewish, but probably an atheist.

    What about Hal Jordan? Right now he's in some Guardian version of an afterlife. As is the entire world of Korugar, minus Sinestro.
    Where does YHWH fit in there? Even if we assume Hal spent time as the Spectre. It's a physics version of Purgatory. But, why would the metaphysical version have more value? Metaphysics is nothing more than the Yin to physic's yang. As the anti-matter universe is to the matter universe.
    Hal is probably not a monotheist.

    Probably most super-heroes have to be polytheist or assume that all gods are just more evolved persons with greater powers (regardless of whether those powers are derived from metaphysics or physics).

  8. #98

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    Are we going back now? Seems convenient, since you can't against canon.

    In your first line you misunderstood what I pointed. I didn't talk about kryptonians or Martians posing as prophets. If that's the case it would take true mystics, some metahimans or even a fine detective (Batman found out when Martians were posing as metahumans) to call their lie, assuming they are there. As far as we known, there are no cases of metahumans or aliens posing as prophets, saints or angels. Items from the bible have been confirmed to have mystical powers, though. I suppose that there are items from other religions with mystical powers as well, the Book of Destiny and the Source for starters.

    I don't know how a regular Christian DCer would prove that Jesus is real, just like a real Christian can prove it to a real non-Chrstian. Again, faith. However, we know that the amount of contemporary Christians in the DCU is about the same as the one in the real Universe.

    Many superheroes are likely politheists, or dismiss certain Pantheons, most of them are aware of the power of the Presence. Some, like Batman, probably don't give a damn. Palmer would have to be an idiot to be atheist at this point. He probably conceives the celestial realm as some sort of metadimension where souls go or whatever. Pretty much like Egon Spengler.

    Don't care about your comment on Hal. I think you have all the elements to answer yourself there. It's a "duh" situation, but you just want to discuss, which is why you are avoiding what is canon.

    I think it's possible that some superheroes might suspect that the Presence and other celestial beings and gods are body-less evolved beings pretending to be creators, or maybe that they are not the creators of the universe even though they can create stuff. However, that's pretty moot, since they are experts on where the souls go. They are aware that they'll be judged.
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
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  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    Can you back your claim on morals demanded by ancient gods?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlazolteotl
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apkallu
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_(mythology)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maat
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pha%C3%ABton
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arachne
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midas#M...out_King_Midas
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwanung

    Agreed on Christians vs. Jews. Jesus basically tossed Deuteronmy in favor love thy neighbor as thyself and the don't judge thing. It probably became more popular because of that, the more you go back in the bible, the more jugle-style Yahweh's law is. Like lesson in progress of sorts, until Jesus reveals the real deal.
    Well, especially the good news that grown men no longer have to be circumsised in order to have salvation.

    Let's go with what we know. The biggest source is probably Sandman. All gods exists and claim the creation, ancient gods have been forgotten or deemed irrelevant. In DC's fake history, people stopped caring about those [actually real] gods as they move on to Yahweh/Jesus/Allah and the contemporary gods, who are real as well.
    The Sandman is Vertigo.
    And I don't think most DCU citizens know anything about the Sandman. That is not going to impact their atheism.

    The Abrahamanic God who is probably the Presence, Rao and a lot of the gods of monotheistic religions would seem to be the real deal as well as the dominant belief.
    The Presence is supposed to represent the Abrahamic God. Yes.
    The Greek, Roman and Egyptian gods are also "the real deals".
    If several monotheistic religions are "the real deal", that would imply polytheism.
    Although, if Rao is the first being to be born out of the void before the universe and he is a separate entity from the Presence, I don't see how both myths can be the real deal. (Although, in that version of the mythology Rao creates a pantheon of gods, so that would be polytheistic)

    I don't remember cases of metahumans claiming godhood in DC.
    I don't think that matters. Whether current metahumans claim godhood is not particularly relevant.
    What is relevant is proving to skeptics and atheists in the DCU that metahumans didn't make false claims in the ancient past.
    Or weren't simply mistaken as gods because they had no other way to describe metahumans or aliens at that time.
    In addition, what is the practical difference between Hell, Hades, Purgatory, Limbo and Nekron's realm?
    What is the practical difference between Satan, Death, Black Racer, Hades (the Greek god) and Nekron?

    If it happens there are two ways to prove him wrong: super scientists by studying his body, the same way Luthor studied Superman to know his weaknesses; mystics know. Mystics can also tell on other mystics claiming to be God. Guys like Parallax-Hal or the Guardians would be tough to tell, but Lanterns know they achieved all through technology and that they don't know the origin of the universe.
    Again, it doesn't matter whether the Guardians achieved all through technology. Especially since they didn't - they simply removed magic from the energy they manipulated and placed it in the Starheart. What matters is how they are perceived.
    If a super-scientist gets their hands on Barry, they could determine that his body appears to be mortal. If a super-scientist studied the body of the resurrected Jesus, would his body also appear to be mortal? As in approx 30 years old? At best, they could remain skeptical since the expectation might be that an ancient god should have a body that indicates it is centuries old.
    Of course, Hermes is immortal and mystical. Makkari is immortal and was also functionally Mercury in ancient times.
    Hermes and Makkari are Yin and Yang - metaphysics and physics. Both are functionally gods.

    So far, no one in the DCU knows the origin of the universe.
    Guardians don't claim origin of the universe, but one does not have to have created the universe to be a god.
    Hermes is a god, but he didn't create the universe. His claim for creation of the universe should be different than the claim of YHWH or the Spectre.
    The only way a mystic is going to be able to tell that another mystic isn't YHWH is if their power is greater.
    "Oh, I expect YHWH to have at least this much power."
    I don't think they could determine a falsehood if Zeus or Odin were claiming to be YHWH. And, again, there's no way to determine what actually occurred in biblical times. Ot that I would expect Zeus or Odin to make that claim - they would simply claim their creation stories were true. And there would be no way to prove any of them to be false.

    Most importantly, there's no way for skeptic or atheist humans in the DCU to determine the truth of any of it.
    Unless the Presence revealed Himself in some irrefutable manner to all humanity.
    Which, we know, He wouldn't do.
    Last edited by Bdiggs; 04-06-2013 at 05:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    In your first line you misunderstood what I pointed. I didn't talk about kryptonians or Martians posing as prophets.
    Exactly.
    But that is what I'm talking about.
    The topic, again, is "Does Atheism Make Sense in the DCU?"
    It's pretty clear you are not talking about that. But, that is what I'm talking about.
    And one of the main reasons that atheism makes sense in the DCU is that there is no way to prove to skeptics and atheists that the prophets in the bible weren't aliens, or metahumans or sorcerors or imps... or a bunch of other beings.
    Just watch Ancient Astronauts. People already believe that in real life.

    If that's the case it would take true mystics, some metahimans or even a fine detective (Batman found out when Martians were posing as metahumans) to call their lie, assuming they are there. As far as we known, there are no cases of metahumans or aliens posing as prophets, saints or angels. Items from the bible have been confirmed to have mystical powers, though. I suppose that there are items from other religions with mystical powers as well, the Book of Destiny and the Source for starters.
    There's no way to provide definitive proof.
    There are mystic relics, so yeah, there would be items from biblical times that still have mystical powers/spells.
    All of which would affect a Kryptonian and probably a Martian. So, that wouldn't tell us anything about the actual nature of the people claiming to be prophets or gods. Especially wouldn't tell us anything if it were a Greek, Norse or New God claiming to be YHWH. Could have been Desaad for all we know.

    I don't know how a regular Christian DCer would prove that Jesus is real, just like a real Christian can prove it to a real non-Chrstian. Again, faith. However, we know that the amount of contemporary Christians in the DCU is about the same as the one in the real Universe.
    Faith answers the question "Does Christianity Make Sense in the DCU?" To which the answer is, "Yes, for those who rely on faith."
    Faith is not an answer for skeptics and atheists.

    I vehemently disagree that the amount of Christians in the DCU is about the same as it is in real life.
    For one thing, atheism is the fastest growing religious status in the US. For another, there are too many super-heroes that have to be polytheist for the numbers to be about the same. And too many members of various pantheons are present for there not to be tons more polytheists among the general population.
    The DCU hasn't provided an example like Orroro, I don't think, but we can be sure that many primitive cultures would balk at being converted when their actual "gods" are present. In order for Christianity to have the same numbers, YHWH would have to be sending down a huge Host of angels and prophets to try to support the claim of His existence. Or causing a heap of miracles.
    Which He doesn't do.

    Many superheroes are likely politheists, or dismiss certain Pantheons, most of them are aware of the power of the Presence. Some, like Batman, probably don't give a damn. Palmer would have to be an idiot to be atheist at this point. He probably conceives the celestial realm as some sort of metadimension where souls go or whatever. Pretty much like Egon Spengler.
    Right.
    So, then, the numbers would not be about the same as in real life.

    I think it's possible that some superheroes might suspect that the Presence and other celestial beings and gods are body-less evolved beings pretending to be creators, or maybe that they are not the creators of the universe even though they can create stuff. However, that's pretty moot, since they are experts on where the souls go. They are aware that they'll be judged.
    It's likely that they are either polytheist or atheist. Unlikely that they are monitheist.
    I think few of them are aware that they will be judged - since few of them are judged when they die.
    Diana wasn't judged when she died. She was turned into the Goddess of Truth. So, clearly there is not only one path to salvation.

    If you don't care about my comment about Hal, it's probably because you're teying to ignore canon.
    Last edited by Bdiggs; 04-06-2013 at 05:47 AM.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    I replied to a lot of your nonsense but decided to erase in favor of what is canon. Again, you are only talking about who is a god from the perspective of those who would believe he is. Not who is actually a God.
    I am talking from the perspective of a skeptic and an atheist -and how that would apply to skeptics and atheists... and polytheists... in the DCU.

    The topic is "Does Atheism Make Sense in the DCU?"


    In the bible and within the DCU:
    *The Presence, Jesus and the Judeochristian angels and demons are canon,
    *Jesus claims to be the son of god,
    *the biggest chunk of the DC Earth's population believe he is God,
    *Jesus' powers are metaphysical (in the DCU tied to the Holy Grail and the Spear of Destiny),
    I don't think we know the biggest chunk of DC Earth's population believe Jesus is Christ. There is also the Lasso of Truth and the Girdle of Gaia.
    As far as canon goes, the Greek, Roman and Egyptian gods are canon. As are the New Gods.
    Phantom Stranger is Judas, so we readers know Jesus existed and that the crucifixion occurred.
    But we also know that Pandora existed. So, that speaks to the Greek myths also being true.
    In the New 52, Judas is judged by the Council of Wizards; not by the Presence.

    *The Spectre is the most powerful superhero and the grail and the spear about the most powerful MacGuffin. Their discreet presence is enough for regular people to keep doubts.
    Seems doubtful, given Phantom Stranger #0, that the Spectre is the most powerful superhero.
    Also, It think we can't tell if the Spectre is directed by the Council of Wizards or "some greater force".
    Nor how much greater that greater force might be.

    In the DCU the Greek, Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Japanese, Nordic and Mayan pantheons, along the New Gods are "gods" as well. Their hierarchy among them, angels, demons and Yahweh is unknown. The Lords of Chaos and Order seem to be on their level and the Endless seem to be superior. The Presence would seem to be above all of them.
    So, that would indicate canon has quite a bit of polytheism. And, we see that the Jesus is not the only path to Judgement or Redemption.
    In addition, we should expect skeptics and atheists to speculate that some prophets and "gods", if not all, might be aliens, metahumans, sorcerors, imps, etc rather than actual gods. Just as some real life people speculate that ancient astronauts might have been mistaken as gods. We should expect them to realize that some ancient metahumans might have been worshipped as gods, just as Orroro is worshipped as a goddess over at Marvel.
    Whether Orroro is actually a goddess is irrelevant. What we're discussing is what people believe to be true (or false); not what has been shown to us readers as true.

    And the stories have provided enough justification for that canon. Not claiming to be God, rejecting worship, and not giving word of God is enough for DC people to believe they are not gods. Asking for faith, providing a celestial code, claiming to be the son of God, and provide some miracles without overdoing it (no angels rescued him) is enough for DC people to consider him God (at least as many as real people).
    That is patently false.
    As soon as other pantheons are recognized as being true -which you concede- that makes the claims of monotheism false.
    Which means there cannot be as many believers in monotheism. And, as soon as the monotheist claim is falsified. That makes a slew of other biblical claims questionable.
    Which gods caused the flood?
    And, again, just because a person claims to be a god doesn't mean they actually are one.
    And, there's no absolute reason to believe that the "gods" who do exist aren't just being who are more evolved than humans - that "gods" aren't anything that humans couldn't someday achieve.

    That covers canon for common people. For Superheroes it's easier, the JLA has Zauriel and the JSA has the Spectre. You go from there.
    Have we seen Zauriel in the New 52?
    As far as I know, all we've seen of the so far is that a voice that possibly came from the Council of Wizards changed Jim Corrigan into the Spectre during a visit with the Phantom Stranger.
    And we also have Diana and Shazam. So, that's still polytheism - which makes monotheism questionable. And we probably have Egyptian gods as well with Nabu and Black Adam.

    I think it's funny though, that you've said several times you had thought of Asgardians as just super-heroes rather than as gods, but you seem unable to wrap your head around skeptics and atheists in the DCU saying the same about YHWH and Jesus.
    Last edited by Bdiggs; 04-06-2013 at 11:05 AM.

  12. #102
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    As some have clarified, there's real difference between athiest, agnostic, theist, and monotheist beliefs. So, too, between acknowledging the existence of something and believing it is infallible or worth following.

    Even if there are angels standing right in front of you, and they have their sandal-wearing longhaired buddy with bronze skin and fiery eyes, going "Yo! Jesus and angels. Show respect," you don't actually have to convert to Christianity. It's a dude and some winged dudes. You're still entirely capable of disagreeing with their policies, refusing their supremacy, and/or saying "prove it" or "so what?"

    A dude with wings doesn't prove or disprove either a deity, a creator deity, or that you owe them allegiance. Just proves there can be a guy with wings. You know, that in the DCU, plus five bucks, and maybe Lucifer will serve you a beer. Great Rao, on the other hand, would probably buy you the beer, because Rao's cool like that. (I know nothing about Rao. But if you meet him, he owes you a beer.)

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    TL;DR
    Once the question, "Does atheism make sense in the DCU?" (YES) is raised, it opens the corollary questions:
    "Does does monotheism make sense in the DCU?" (NO)
    "Does polytheism make sense in the DCU?" (YES)
    "Does Christianity make sense in the DCU?" (YES)
    "Does Judaism make sense in the DCU?" (YES)

    If one answers "Does does monotheism make sense in the DCU?" (YES)
    That opens up the question, "How do monotheists rationalize Greek, Roman, Norse and Egyptian gods?"
    Whatever those answers are -as you suggest, "they're considered to be superheroes"- they would be applied by skeptics and atheists to biblical figures.

    If one answers "Does Christianity make sense in the DCU?" (YES)
    That opens the question, "How do Christians rationalize Diana and Shazam? Do they believe their powers were bestowed by gods?"
    If that answer is no, the same rationalizations would be supplied by skeptics and atheists to biblical figures.
    If that answer is yes, those Christians must be polytheists. Polytheism means the biblical claims of monotheism must be false. Which then opens the door for other biblical claims to be perceived as false by skeptics and atheists.
    If most Christians are polytheists - it must be quite a different faith than what is in the real world.

    If most people believe that other gods exist, a significant amount of those people should be drawn to following tangible gods who can demonstrably answer prayers. Thus, the numbers for Christian-only followers should be considerably less.
    If there are people that believe only the Christian god exists and the pantheon gods are "fake", there must be people that believe YHWH and his prophets and saints are "fake" for similar reasons.

    Ergo - atheism does make sense in the DCU.

    What you are arguing is that YHWH, the Presense, Christ and the biblical accounts are true in the DCU.
    But that's different than what people believe to be true. Or what people disbelieve.

  14. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bdiggs View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlazolteotl
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apkallu
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_(mythology)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maat
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pha%C3%ABton
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arachne
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midas#M...out_King_Midas
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwanung


    Well, especially the good news that grown men no longer have to be circumsised in order to have salvation.


    The Sandman is Vertigo.
    And I don't think most DCU citizens know anything about the Sandman. That is not going to impact their atheism.


    The Presence is supposed to represent the Abrahamic God. Yes.
    The Greek, Roman and Egyptian gods are also "the real deals".
    If several monotheistic religions are "the real deal", that would imply polytheism.
    Although, if Rao is the first being to be born out of the void before the universe and he is a separate entity from the Presence, I don't see how both myths can be the real deal. (Although, in that version of the mythology Rao creates a pantheon of gods, so that would be polytheistic)


    I don't think that matters. Whether current metahumans claim godhood is not particularly relevant.
    What is relevant is proving to skeptics and atheists in the DCU that metahumans didn't make false claims in the ancient past.
    Or weren't simply mistaken as gods because they had no other way to describe metahumans or aliens at that time.
    In addition, what is the practical difference between Hell, Hades, Purgatory, Limbo and Nekron's realm?
    What is the practical difference between Satan, Death, Black Racer, Hades (the Greek god) and Nekron?


    Again, it doesn't matter whether the Guardians achieved all through technology. Especially since they didn't - they simply removed magic from the energy they manipulated and placed it in the Starheart. What matters is how they are perceived.
    If a super-scientist gets their hands on Barry, they could determine that his body appears to be mortal. If a super-scientist studied the body of the resurrected Jesus, would his body also appear to be mortal? As in approx 30 years old? At best, they could remain skeptical since the expectation might be that an ancient god should have a body that indicates it is centuries old.
    Of course, Hermes is immortal and mystical. Makkari is immortal and was also functionally Mercury in ancient times.
    Hermes and Makkari are Yin and Yang - metaphysics and physics. Both are functionally gods.

    So far, no one in the DCU knows the origin of the universe.
    Guardians don't claim origin of the universe, but one does not have to have created the universe to be a god.
    Hermes is a god, but he didn't create the universe. His claim for creation of the universe should be different than the claim of YHWH or the Spectre.
    The only way a mystic is going to be able to tell that another mystic isn't YHWH is if their power is greater.
    "Oh, I expect YHWH to have at least this much power."
    I don't think they could determine a falsehood if Zeus or Odin were claiming to be YHWH. And, again, there's no way to determine what actually occurred in biblical times. Ot that I would expect Zeus or Odin to make that claim - they would simply claim their creation stories were true. And there would be no way to prove any of them to be false.

    Most importantly, there's no way for skeptic or atheist humans in the DCU to determine the truth of any of it.
    Unless the Presence revealed Himself in some irrefutable manner to all humanity.
    Which, we know, He wouldn't do.
    I have to ask you a favor. I like the discussion and the challenge, but can you try to be more concise?

    As you reminded the class, gods control certain activities and aspects of everyday life. However, specially true to the Greeks, they are whimsical and more often than not help those who worship them despite their behavior. That being said, principles of wise behavior can always be inferred by theirs stories, in which they are usually the ones sinning. The contrast would be Yahweh, always keeping the father figure and providing orders of behavior. There are no ten commandments of Aphrodite or Zeus, which is what I meant by "morals demanded by other gods".

    Gotta go. I'll probably continue later.
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

  15. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bdiggs View Post
    That opens up the question, "How do monotheists rationalize Greek, Roman, Norse and Egyptian gods?"
    Easy. There are hundreds of them all over the world and likely hundreds of thousands all over the universe, as well as those who created them (like the Titans of myth or ancient Genesians), consequently there has to be one that created them all. The watcher of watchers.
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

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