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  1. #151
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSimonHurt View Post
    This is pretty much identical to his arrogant portrayal in the 90's by Grant Morrison, which is the only Orion that matters. So far, he feels like the same character. He should be dead, though.
    Well maybe not the only one that matters but the only Orion that I've really identified with and found compelling to read so far (haven't read too much new gods).

    I thought Lobdell's Orion was pretty good really. I never heard of him being next in line for the throne but that sounds pretty compelling to me, and really like his rage here from what I saw of it.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by berk View Post
    It is incomplete, but though I only skimmed through the issue but even that cursory glance already makes clear several things wrong with this Orion:

    1) his contempt for the "cowards" he saved

    2) the reference to himself as heir to the New Genesis throne

    3) his resentment towards Highfather

    4) his arrogant dismissal of Superman on sight: "doesn't look like much of a problem to me"

    and maybe,

    5) one more thing that I'm not 100% sure on without going back to check, but I don't remember any of the New Gods ever kneeling to the Source before; that didn't feel right to me, though though it ould be that my memory's playing me false there.


    Anyway, we've already seen enough to now that this is not the Orion of Kirby's New Gods, and that almost all the changes are negative: contempt, arrogance and resentment that were never part of his character in the original stories. This makes it likely that we're getting an orion tailor-made to provide a negative contrast to Superman, much as we've seen in the past.

    Azzarello's doing something similar in Wonder Woman, though with a slightly different set of negative qualities; there he's an obnoxious frat-boy as opposed to the resentlful and arrogant "heir to the throne" we see here, but the motivation behind the changes is probably much the same: to provide conflict and/or negative contrast with the lead hero.

    So even though we haven't seen much, it's enough to show us that this is not Orion as conceived by the guy who created him, Kirby. And as far as Superman is concerned, even before they've even met or spoken, we've already seen that Orion is being written as foolishly over-confident and arrogant towards him, so I suspect we can see where that's going.
    Even the grand daddy of them all was changed for this reboot so Orion is nobody special that he should be exempt from anu changes.
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  3. #153
    Optic Blast, Optic Blast B. Kuwanger's Avatar
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    I didn't mind his voice, at least. But it was funny that he was complaining about his own feelings and then talking about humans and their ridiculous emotions on the next page.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talisman View Post
    Thanks for altering my quote and being dismissive. That really lends credence to your argument. *rolleyes*
    Your original post didn't have any relevance to the one of my own that you quoted, so I threw some new rims on it for you. De nada.
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  4. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by berk View Post
    It is incomplete, but though I only skimmed through the issue but even that cursory glance already makes clear several things wrong with this Orion:

    1) his contempt for the "cowards" he saved

    2) the reference to himself as heir to the New Genesis throne

    3) his resentment towards Highfather

    4) his arrogant dismissal of Superman on sight: "doesn't look like much of a problem to me"

    and maybe,

    5) one more thing that I'm not 100% sure on without going back to check, but I don't remember any of the New Gods ever kneeling to the Source before; that didn't feel right to me, though though it ould be that my memory's playing me false there.


    Anyway, we've already seen enough to now that this is not the Orion of Kirby's New Gods, and that almost all the changes are negative: contempt, arrogance and resentment that were never part of his character in the original stories. This makes it likely that we're getting an orion tailor-made to provide a negative contrast to Superman, much as we've seen in the past.

    Azzarello's doing something similar in Wonder Woman, though with a slightly different set of negative qualities; there he's an obnoxious frat-boy as opposed to the resentlful and arrogant "heir to the throne" we see here, but the motivation behind the changes is probably much the same: to provide conflict and/or negative contrast with the lead hero.

    So even though we haven't seen much, it's enough to show us that this is not Orion as conceived by the guy who created him, Kirby. And as far as Superman is concerned, even before they've even met or spoken, we've already seen that Orion is being written as foolishly over-confident and arrogant towards him, so I suspect we can see where that's going.
    I'd agree with most of this, yes. Though I'd argue that the "Doesn't seem like much of a problem to me" line is meant, intentionally, to be taken two ways; that Superman doesn't seem like he'd be much in a fight, yes, but also that he doesn't seem as though he'd be a force for evil.
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  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by berk View Post
    Azzarello's doing something similar in Wonder Woman, though with a slightly different set of negative qualities; there he's an obnoxious frat-boy as opposed to the resentlful and arrogant "heir to the throne" we see here, but the motivation behind the changes is probably much the same: to provide conflict and/or negative contrast with the lead hero.

    So even though we haven't seen much, it's enough to show us that this is not Orion as conceived by the guy who created him, Kirby. And as far as Superman is concerned, even before they've even met or spoken, we've already seen that Orion is being written as foolishly over-confident and arrogant towards him, so I suspect we can see where that's going.
    Orion always had arrogance to him so I don't quite see this as an issue. Apokolips is essentially evil isn't it and his birth father is evil incarnate. I could see the guy battling with negative traits too. But a sexist pig...not sure why that had to be. It makes no sense that he'd even called WW legs (seriously Legs?) and smirk and talk down to her and makes sexual remarks and smack her ass for dna etc etc I think it lazy of Azz to use that kind of dynamic to force tension. It's like there is no other way to get tension going so yeah..make him the frat boy jerk.It is like scraping the barrel looking for a reason to make WW mad at Orion all the time. Could he not have written him as a believable seasoned warrior, who would be maturer and with that kind of regal alien arrogance yes even while wrestling with rage issues. Seems he wanted a hip, pretty boy, young, biker rebel type, and that's not how I see Orion. That is why Lobdell's seems way better of the two. If the guy is an experienced warrior and he see this young Superman, why would he be worried? He's the Dog of War. He's being proud maybe but also, for him, matter of fact

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by super1man View Post
    Even the grand daddy of them all was changed for this reboot so Orion is nobody special that he should be exempt from anu changes.
    By grand daddyof them all you mean Superman? As I explainned in another post above, the reinventions of characters like Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman aren't comparable to what's done with Orion here and elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    I'd agree with most of this, yes. Though I'd argue that the "Doesn't seem like much of a problem to me" line is meant, intentionally, to be taken two ways; that Superman doesn't seem like he'd be much in a fight, yes, but also that he doesn't seem as though he'd be a force for evil.
    I don't get that feeling myself, but granting for the sake of argument it was there, it doesn't detract from the arrogance implied in his dismissal of Superman as a potemntial oppnent or threat. Incidentally, that dismissal made no sense at all, since Superman looks much like Orion - a muscular male humanoid of roughly the same suize and build as Orion - so its completely gratuitous and has no explanation apart from the writer's need to portray Orion as presumptuously overconfident.

    Of course, since that's how he's been written so often snce Kirby, most fans think this is what the character's always been about, as we see from thse responses:
    Quote Originally Posted by DrSimonHurt
    This is pretty much identical to his arrogant portrayal in the 90's by Grant Morrison, which is the only Orion that matters. So far, he feels like the same character.
    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Well maybe not the only one that matters but the only Orion that I've really identified with and found compelling to read so far (haven't read too much new gods).

    I thought Lobdell's Orion was pretty good really. I never heard of him being next in line for the throne but that sounds pretty compelling to me, and really like his rage here from what I saw of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by thepenguin View Post
    Orion always had arrogance to him so I don't quite see this as an issue. Apokolips is essentially evil isn't it and his birth father is evil incarnate. I could see the guy battling with negative traits too.
    Kirby made it quite clear what aspects of his Apokaliptan heritage Orion had to struggle against with the aid of Mother Box, and arrogance wasn't one of the them.

    The New Genesis vs Apokalips set-up isn't always reducible to a simple Good vs Evil scenario, so we can't automatically assign every negative to every Apokaliptan: for example, if you read Kirby's New Gods closely, you'll see that arrogance isn't even one of Darkseid's negative characteristics: I can't think of a moment where Darkseid expresses the belief that he should rule over everything because he's smarter or more powerful or superior to everyone or anyone else. It's simply something that he's driven to strive for because of the innate and inescapable nature of what he is - which is one of the things that makes beings like him and Orion gods - they're embodiments or "giant reflections", as Kirby puts it, of the drives within our own human psyches and/or of aspects of reality itself. Arrogance isn't part of Darkseid's (or of Orion's) nature. It's foisted on Darkseid by lesser writers simply because that's how superhero fans and fan-writers expect comic-book villains to behave, especially tyrant/ruler types.

    But a sexist pig...not sure why that had to be. It makes no sense that he'd even called WW legs (seriously Legs?) and smirk and talk down to her and makes sexual remarks and smack her ass for dna etc etc I think it lazy of Azz to use that kind of dynamic to force tension. It's like there is no other way to get tension going so yeah..make him the frat boy jerk.It is like scraping the barrel looking for a reason to make WW mad at Orion all the time. Could he not have written him as a believable seasoned warrior, who would be maturer and with that kind of regal alien arrogance yes even while wrestling with rage issues. Seems he wanted a hip, pretty boy, young, biker rebel type, and that's not how I see Orion. That is why Lobdell's seems way better of the two. If the guy is an experienced warrior and he see this young Superman, why would he be worried? He's the Dog of War. He's being proud maybe but also, for him, matter of fact
    See my response to DeSaad above. I don't think it reads that way, and I suspect we'll see that confirmed later on when Superman shows orion the error of his over-confidence.

    Agree about Orion in the current WW - his behaviour there makes no sense at all and isn't based on anything in the basic concept of the character - this is what makes it (and almost every other post-Kirby version) different from the periodic re-inventions we see of characters like Batman and Superman: it's a completely arbitrary change to the character based on nothing more than that the writer felt like it for reasons connected not with the character-concept but with the story he wants to write. And that's what makes it so cheap, and, unfortunately, so typical of comics.
    Last edited by berk; 03-30-2013 at 09:58 PM.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by berk View Post
    By grand daddyof them all you mean Superman? As I explainned in another post above, the reinventions of characters like Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman aren't comparable to what's done with Orion here and elsewhere.

    I don't get that feeling myself, but granting for the sake of argument it was there, it doesn't detract from the arrogance implied in his dismissal of Superman as a potemntial oppnent or threat. Incidentally, that dismissal made no sense at all, since Superman looks much like Orion - a muscular male humanoid of roughly the same suize and build as Orion - so its completely gratuitous and has no explanation apart from the writer's need to portray Orion as presumptuously overconfident.

    Of course, since that's how he's been written so often snce Kirby, most fans think this is what the character's always been about, as we see from thse responses: Kirby made it quite clear what aspects of his Apokaliptan heritage Orion had to struggle against with the aid of Mother Box, and arrogance wasn't one of the them.

    The New Genesis vs Apokalips set-up isn't always reducible to a simple Good vs Evil scenario, so we can't automatically assign every negative to every Apokaliptan: for example, if you read Kirby's New Gods closely, you'll see that arrogance isn't even one of Darkseid's negative characteristics: I can't think of a moment where Darkseid expresses the belief that he should rule over everything because he's smarter or more powerful or superior to everyone or anyone else. It's simply something that he's driven to strive for because of the innate and inescapable nature of what he is - which is one of the things that makes beings like him and Orion gods - they're embodiments or "giant reflections", as Kirby puts it, of the drives within our own human psyches and/or of aspects of reality itself. Arrogance isn't part of Darkseid's (or of Orion's) nature. It's foisted on Darkseid by lesser writers simply because that's how superhero fans and fan-writers expect comic-book villains to behave, especially tyrant/ruler types.

    See my response to DeSaad above. I don't think it reads that way, and I suspect we'll see that confirmed later on when Superman shows orion the error of his over-confidence.

    Agree about Orion in the current WW - his behaviour there makes no sense at all and isn't based on anything in the basic concept of the character - this is what makes it (and almost every other post-Kirby version) different from the periodic re-inventions we see of characters like Batman and Superman: it's a completely arbitrary change to the character based on nothing more than that the writer felt like it for reasons connected not with the character-concept but with the story he wants to write. And that's what makes it so cheap, and, unfortunately, so typical of comics.
    All the characters are being changed. Even Superman is not the same as what his creators envisoned. I think the New Gods also can be polished better by changing them. Its actually no different than changing Superman or Batman.
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  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by super1man View Post
    All the characters are being changed. Even Superman is not the same as what his creators envisoned. I think the New Gods also can be polished better by changing them. Its actually no different than changing Superman or Batman.
    Well, I've already said pretty specifically how it's different from changing popular characters like Batman and Superman, so you could respond to those points if you're intere4sted in discussing it. Aprat from that, any time a character is modified you'll find readers who like the changes, readers who dislike them, and readers who are indifferent. I'm one of those who dislike the chnges to orion from Kirby's original because that story, Kirby's New Gods, was one of the best things ever done in comics and its ideas and characters are far more intriguing to me than almost anything ever done in DCU-centred comics. So any change to those characters or ideas, especially changes designed to make them more conventional and DCU-friendly, is a change for the worse.

    Of course, DCU fans will disagree: to them, a ranting, arrogant Darkseid who gets in fights with Superman is much more fun than the character from Kirby's epic, because they like reading stories about Superman beating up bad guys. But I say that changing Darkseid into another bad guy for Superman to beat up is a loss for the comics medium and a sad reflection on the state of the industry, its fans, and its writers. Same with Orion: every change from Kirby's Orion so far has made him a less subtle, less original, less interesting character. But for DCU fans who enjoy seeing their heroes knock boastful, over-confident, morally inferior rivals off their high horse, the obnoxious show-off is more fun than the deadly serious, conflicted cosmic warrior with the weight of the universe on his shoulders.

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