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  1. #31
    Moderate Moderator Javier Velasco's Avatar
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    People read different characters for different reasons. Wonder Woman fans aren't just drawn to the character because she has a basis in greek myth and can fight. But that is pretty much where we are with this interpretation.

    Wonder Woman has a variety of powers. When people are asking for more action, they don't necessarily mean more fighting.
    Can you imagine a Flash comic where hall he didn't use his superspeed?
    Or a GL comic where he didn't use his ring?
    The difference here is that Diana is a multi-powered superhero, like Superman.

    We should see her using her superspeed. Her power of flight. Her magic lasso. Her bracelets. Her ability to commune with animals. Her super strength. To solve problems. Not just incidentally before she pulls out her swords or fists to fix things. That is part of the fun of following a multipowered hero. Seeing how inventively the writer uses the powers. And Azzarello just isn't very inventive with them.

    This is not to say that he is a horrible writer. Or that he is writing the characterization badly. But he is totally missing an entire element of writing a superhero. And that element is superheroics.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    People read different characters for different reasons. Wonder Woman fans aren't just drawn to the character because she has a basis in greek myth and can fight. But that is pretty much where we are with this interpretation.
    I would hazard that some are drawn to her for the mythological aspect more than anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    Wonder Woman has a variety of powers. When people are asking for more action, they don't necessarily mean more fighting.
    Can you imagine a Flash comic where hall he didn't use his superspeed?
    Or a GL comic where he didn't use his ring?
    The difference here is that Diana is a multi-powered superhero, like Superman.

    We should see her using her superspeed. Her power of flight. Her magic lasso. Her bracelets. Her ability to commune with animals. Her super strength. To solve problems. Not just incidentally before she pulls out her swords or fists to fix things. That is part of the fun of following a multipowered hero. Seeing how inventively the writer uses the powers. And Azzarello just isn't very inventive with them.
    The problem, as you point out with the comparison, GL and Flash only have one thing and without it, they are just ordinary joe's, so the writers dont have a choice in the matter. Their challenge lies in how to invent new ways of bending a relatively simple powerset into something interesting.
    Wonder Woman on the other hand the challenge lies in utilizing select powers in any given situation, for example:
    -she comes under fire: she uses her bracelets
    -faces a though opponent: super strength+combat training
    -needs answers/interrogation: lasso

    You cant really ask her to use everything at once any more than you could ask an electrician to use every tool in his box to repair your fusebox.

    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    This is not to say that he is a horrible writer. Or that he is writing the characterization badly. But he is totally missing an entire element of writing a superhero. And that element is superheroics.
    I would say it's the same for her powers as it is for her rogues and guests appearances in the Wonder Woman book; they will be added to the mix when it makes sense to add them.

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    The problem, as you point out with the comparison, GL and Flash only have one thing and without it, they are just ordinary joe's, so the writers dont have a choice in the matter. Their challenge lies in how to invent new ways of bending a relatively simple powerset into something interesting.
    Wonder Woman on the other hand the challenge lies in utilizing select powers in any given situation, for example:
    -she comes under fire: she uses her bracelets
    -faces a though opponent: super strength+combat training
    -needs answers/interrogation: lasso

    You cant really ask her to use everything at once any more than you could ask an electrician to use every tool in his box to repair your fusebox.
    Or perhaps a superhero-apt comparison, you're not going to see Batman use every single gadget he has lying around to deal with one villain.

  4. #34
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    I would say it's the same for her powers as it is for her rogues and guests appearances in the Wonder Woman book; they will be added to the mix when it makes sense to add them.
    I suppose it is for the best that they're being ignored. Azzarello would only include them to trash them; that's all he's capable of. The less that stuff gets dealt with, the easier a time the next good author will have ignoring what Azzarello has done.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  5. #35
    Senior Member UsagiTsukino's Avatar
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    Okay I was wondering what's up with the stars are her previous bracelets? Did they do anything? When did she get them?

  6. #36
    Moderate Moderator Javier Velasco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    I would hazard that some are drawn to her for the mythological aspect more than anything else....The problem, as you point out with the comparison, GL and Flash only have one thing and without it, they are just ordinary joe's, so the writers dont have a choice in the matter. Their challenge lies in how to invent new ways of bending a relatively simple powerset into something interesting.
    Wonder Woman on the other hand the challenge lies in utilizing select powers in any given situation, for example:
    -she comes under fire: she uses her bracelets
    -faces a though opponent: super strength+combat training
    -needs answers/interrogation: lasso
    You cant really ask her to use everything at once any more than you could ask an electrician to use every tool in his box to repair your fusebox.
    No, I can't expect her to use everything AT once, but I can expect her to use everything at LEAST once in the space of two years.

    While many fans are drawn to her mythological aspect more than anything else, there are an equal amount of fans who are drawn to her because she is a...
    a) feminist icon
    b) superhero
    c) female character

    not much of which has been serviced by this run.

    Also, your example of WW using specific abilities for specific situations is EXACTLY what I am talking about. Rather than have ONE solution for any given situation, the fun in reading a superhero who has multiple abilities is being surprised by how they choose to deal with them. I would rather the list look like this.

    -she comes under fire: she uses her bracelets OR twirls the lasso at superspeed to become a shield OR dodges the bullets at superspeed OR flies out of range OR...
    -faces a though opponent: super strength+combat training OR outwits them with the wisdom of Athena OR uses her superspeed to disorient them OR lassos them into submission OR...
    -needs answers/interrogation: lasso OR deduces what the person really wants and uses the wisdom of Athena OR communes with some nearby animals OR...

    Whatever. Just a more inventive use of the abilities that Diana is supposed to possess.

    Also a superhero is supposed to actually save people at some point. Planet's full if possible. So far Diana has not done this. For all intents and purposes, Azzarello has taken all of this Greek mythology and turned it into a soap opera-ish family quarrel that to date has had little effect on the rest of the world.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    I suppose it is for the best that they're being ignored. Azzarello would only include them to trash them; that's all he's capable of. The less that stuff gets dealt with, the easier a time the next good author will have ignoring what Azzarello has done.
    I am kinda dreading you would be cheering your pants off if we woke up tomorrow and found out Nocenti, Lobdell or Leifeld had been put on Wonder Woman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    No, I can't expect her to use everything AT once, but I can expect her to use everything at LEAST once in the space of two years.
    Why? If it doesn't serve the story in any way?

    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    While many fans are drawn to her mythological aspect more than anything else, there are an equal amount of fans who are drawn to her because she is a...
    a) feminist icon
    When was the last time any writer played this card? A feminist icon is something she is based on her portrayal throughout the years, it's not something you can brew a story on, all you can do is maintain the good things that made her iconic in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    b) superhero
    From my perspective she seems to have moved beyond petty thugs and thieves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    c) female character
    Her gender hasn't changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    Also, your example of WW using specific abilities for specific situations is EXACTLY what I am talking about. Rather than have ONE solution for any given situation, the fun in reading a superhero who has multiple abilities is being surprised by how they choose to deal with them. I would rather the list look like this.

    -she comes under fire: she uses her bracelets OR twirls the lasso at superspeed to become a shield OR dodges the bullets at superspeed OR flies out of range OR...
    -faces a though opponent: super strength+combat training OR outwits them with the wisdom of Athena OR uses her superspeed to disorient them OR lassos them into submission OR...
    -needs answers/interrogation: lasso OR deduces what the person really wants and uses the wisdom of Athena OR communes with some nearby animals OR...

    Whatever. Just a more inventive use of the abilities that Diana is supposed to possess.
    Well i hope you've blamed previous writers in a similar fashion, since they are as guilty as Azzarello in this department.

    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    Also a superhero is supposed to actually save people at some point. Planet's full if possible. So far Diana has not done this. For all intents and purposes, Azzarello has taken all of this Greek mythology and turned it into a soap opera-ish family quarrel that to date has had little effect on the rest of the world.
    The goal of most superheroes tend to be preventing changes in the world through some singular superpower, maintaining the status quo. And Diana has had her hand full with first Zola then the potential Doomsday Baby and now the First Born that going to ruin just about everything according to Highfather, so yeah, those seem to be bigger stakes than H'el's lackluster attempt at planet busting.

  8. #38
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    I am kinda dreading you would be cheering your pants off if we woke up tomorrow and found out Nocenti, Lobdell or Leifeld had been put on Wonder Woman.
    After the JMS disaster I'm hesitant to say that it can't get worse for the character; but the only writers that strike me as being potentially worse than Azzarello would be Ennis, Gaiman, or Frank Miller. Nocenti, Lobdell, and even Liefeld would all be improvements. If Liefeld writes, hopefully he gets to use Thee and Thou a lot.

    When was the last time any writer played this card? A feminist icon is something she is based on her portrayal throughout the years, it's not something you can brew a story on, all you can do is maintain the good things that made her iconic in the first place.
    That's why Azzarello is such a catastrophic failure.
    Superhero comic books only become art to the extent that their banal, unrealistic fantasy and garish styles go too far and become interesting. Attempts to ground them in reality can only ruin them.

  9. #39
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    When was the last time any writer played this card? A feminist icon is something she is based on her portrayal throughout the years, it's not something you can brew a story on, all you can do is maintain the good things that made her iconic in the first place.
    Gail Simone.

    Issue #600.


  10. #40
    Moderate Moderator Javier Velasco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Why? If it doesn't serve the story in any way?
    But it does serve the story and the character. How does always fighting hand to hand serve the story or the character any better? All it does it make Diana seem as if her preferred way to handle a violent situation is with violence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    When was the last time any writer played this card? A feminist icon is something she is based on her portrayal throughout the years, it's not something you can brew a story on, all you can do is maintain the good things that made her iconic in the first place.
    The things that made Diana iconic were her costume, history, backstory. All of which have been tossed in favor of Azzarello's Greek myth spin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    From my perspective she seems to have moved beyond petty thugs and thieves.
    Petty thugs and thieves have never been either WW's area or that of a superhero. Keeping volcanos from exploding. Lifting aircraft carriers. Evacuating buildings at superspeed. That is superheroing. None of which has been done by Diana. But I don't understand why the discussion when even Azzarello keeps saying over and over that he isn't writing a "superhero" comic. Fine. But some of us like superheroes. And see Diana as the ultimate superheroine. So if she doesn't do anything superheroic in the book, we will NEVER feel like we are reading a Wonder Woman comic. We will feel like we are reading a story in which Wonder Woman appears. Which is a different thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Her gender hasn't changed.
    I never said it did. I was just pointing out that while some people read the book because it has Diana's backstory has a mythological basis, that there are just as many readers who read it for other reasons. The primary one being that they are reading about a female superhero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Well i hope you've blamed previous writers in a similar fashion, since they are as guilty as Azzarello in this department.
    Actually, I have. Rucka seemed to forget that Diana could do anything but hit things, fly, and threaten to use her lasso for the first part of his run. Likewise, Gail Simone stressed Diana's combat abilities for most if not all her run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    The goal of most superheroes tend to be preventing changes in the world through some singular superpower, maintaining the status quo. And Diana has had her hand full with first Zola then the potential Doomsday Baby and now the First Born that going to ruin just about everything according to Highfather, so yeah, those seem to be bigger stakes than H'el's lackluster attempt at planet busting.
    Actually, if I am not mistaken Diana hasn't made contact with the First Born yet. And we have known that Zola was pregnant with Zeus's kid from WW#1. So, in effect, WW has been protecting a total 2 beings for the past 18 issues.

    Again, I am not making the case that the story is horrible or that Azzarello is a horrible writer. What I am saying is that WW is not satisfying as a "superhero". A point which I don't think Azzarello would disagree with.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Gail Simone.

    Issue #600.
    Sry, what I saw when I saw that was Premier Female Superhero, it had nothing to do with her real world iconic status.

    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    But it does serve the story and the character. How does always fighting hand to hand serve the story or the character any better? All it does it make Diana seem as if her preferred way to handle a violent situation is with violence.
    Then what was that fight with Sirraca then?
    The fights with Hades and Apollo didn't end with one side completely out cold either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    The things that made Diana iconic were her costume, history, backstory. All of which have been tossed in favor of Azzarello's Greek myth spin.
    Perhaps, and apparently by clinging to it, DC were slowly pushing her further and further into total irrelevancy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    Petty thugs and thieves have never been either WW's area or that of a superhero.
    Tell that to the Cheeta and Batman's gallery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    Keeping volcanos from exploding. Lifting aircraft carriers. Evacuating buildings at superspeed. That is superheroing. None of which has been done by Diana. But I don't understand why the discussion when even Azzarello keeps saying over and over that he isn't writing a "superhero" comic. Fine. But some of us like superheroes. And see Diana as the ultimate superheroine. So if she doesn't do anything superheroic in the book, we will NEVER feel like we are reading a Wonder Woman comic. We will feel like we are reading a story in which Wonder Woman appears. Which is a different thing.
    To me thats the childhood idea of superheroing. Diana is still saving the world, it's just not from an alien invasion or a 1000ft monster stomping through Boston.
    But I understand you would be perfectly ok with the book, if Diana was just more 'flashy' with her powers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    I never said it did. I was just pointing out that while some people read the book because it has Diana's backstory has a mythological basis, that there are just as many readers who read it for other reasons. The primary one being that they are reading about a female superhero.
    True, true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    Actually, I have. Rucka seemed to forget that Diana could do anything but hit things, fly, and threaten to use her lasso for the first part of his run. Likewise, Gail Simone stressed Diana's combat abilities for most if not all her run.
    Good, thats all I am asking :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    Actually, if I am not mistaken Diana hasn't made contact with the First Born yet. And we have known that Zola was pregnant with Zeus's kid from WW#1. So, in effect, WW has been protecting a total 2 beings for the past 18 issues.
    I was referring to the inevitable meeting between Diana and her half-brother in only 2-3 months time. And yes the total number of people she's directly protected during all this time is 3 (counting Hera who'd be living on the street otherwise). But indirectly she is trying to protect everyone else, from the kid that may or may not be a doomsday device.

    Quote Originally Posted by Javier Velasco View Post
    Again, I am not making the case that the story is horrible or that Azzarello is a horrible writer. What I am saying is that WW is not satisfying as a "superhero". A point which I don't think Azzarello would disagree with.
    True.

  12. #42
    Senior Member wagthedog's Avatar
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    We know, that in her own book, that she could only fly with Hermes feather, in number 12. Otherwise, in a couple of panels in the Siracco issue, she appeared to hover. Chiang did not draw her flying with speed like she has been shown outside of her title. Nor do we know if the feather effect is temporary.

    Her powers seem to be different than what is depicted outside of her title, almost as if Azz gives her powers based on his telling of the story, like 'god-mode', or swords coming out of the bracers. He has loosely defined her powers (still after 19 issues). It is a 'cop-out' in my opinion.

  13. #43
    Senior Member hellacre's Avatar
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    Compare this REBOOT to Action Comics and we see where it falls short in terms of her powers and well a lot of other things. It is supposed to be a reboot. He has taken responsibility for redefining her and all he has done is written her as tied into mythology. So far.

    Powers just seem to dribble out of this title, we not even sure what she was born with. We not sure if flight is permanent here. If it was clear people would not be confused and the question would not be asked constantly. We not sure what is God mode. I mean surely if she knew she could take out the bracelets and go all goddess and lightning...is she not a little dense? Has she not questioned that power? Clay having that is kind of odd, no? The bracers, the lasso...all not fully explained or explored and we are 18 issues in. 18 issues in I would hazard that this character and the one in JL and SM titles are in different verses. I can guess what she could do there. Not so much here. Some might argue, it's Gods who are more powerful so it does not matter. To me, the reader, who wants to read WW and a REBOOT...yes it does. I did not think I would be reading a year and half later a book populated by Gods and getting now New Gods. I thought his intent if he wanted to keep it tight and within the mythos he would have done that. But he has ignored what makes her WW...ie her being a superhero and trying to inspire people, having well. a mission. Her birth and upbringing as not defined by Gods despite being Zeus' daughter, I liked that and thought he was going at pains to show that, but seems that is secondary now because her mission in this book is about Gods.

    Action Comics- Birth, Nurturing. City. Cast. Check. We even have normal people, alien people (Grant did not ignore that because both elements make Superman) Kal and Clark has connections to. I understand why he is a Super hero and a populist one. I also get why he might feel alone. We see why he becomes a reporter. We see his evolving costume, his powers. He starts off leaping tall buildings in jeans and tee and then he is who we know him today. We have seen him use his strength, his brain, his speed, his heat vision, etc . We've seen the importance and significance of the armor and the cape... and seen different foes...from a human, Lex, to an AI to an inter-dimensional imp and even the 'devil' (And some say Superman can't be written along magical characters) to show case that. We got the JL and the Legion even appearing and did they detract from him? No. Because they are part of his life. He is also written as a presence, via his personality and yes, his powers allow for that too. All this done in 18 issues with different arcs. Yes, I know Action Comics might not appeal to everyone but the point is, you reboot a character, you reboot in a holistic manner.

    This is a story as some say that could have just been a standalone graphic novel. As a reboot it is taking its godly time (pun intended) to get to basics. But then we should accept that does not matter quite so much in THIS story. So to the OP...just accept it. This Diana is lost in a bubble dealing with her Gods. Thankfully sometimes she leaves and steps in the DCU because of other writers and we get a sense she has a life outside of this empty London, did have some reason why she wants to be WW, and she has powers that makes an impact and difference in the real world.
    Last edited by hellacre; 03-30-2013 at 05:34 AM.
    http://superman-wonderwoman.deviantart.com/ (featuring some of the best superman/wonder woman art )

  14. #44
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Sry, what I saw when I saw that was Premier Female Superhero, it had nothing to do with her real world iconic status.
    You didn't ask about 'real world iconic status.' you asked 'when was the last time a writer played the feminist icon card.'

    Having Diana empower the female heroes and lead them all into battle meets that criteria pretty well, imo.

  15. #45
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    Compare this REBOOT to Action Comics and we see where it falls short in terms of her powers and well a lot of other things. It is supposed to be a reboot. He has taken responsibility for redefining her and all he has done is written her as tied into mythology. So far.

    Powers just seem to dribble out of this title, we not even sure what she was born with. We not sure if flight is permanent here. If it was clear people would not be confused and the question would not be asked constantly. We not sure what is God mode. I mean surely if she knew she could take out the bracelets and go all goddess and lightning...is she not a little dense? Has she not questioned that power? Clay having that is kind of odd, no? The bracers, the lasso...all not fully explained or explored and we are 18 issues in. 18 issues in I would hazard that this character and the one in JL and SM titles are in different verses. I can guess what she could do there. Not so much here. Some might argue, it's Gods who are more powerful so it does not matter. To me, the reader, who wants to read WW and a REBOOT...yes it does. I did not think I would be reading a year and half later a book populated by Gods and getting now New Gods. I thought his intent if he wanted to keep it tight and within the mythos he would have done that. But he has ignored what makes her WW...ie her being a superhero and trying to inspire people, having well. a mission. Her birth and upbringing as not defined by Gods despite being Zeus' daughter, I liked that and thought he was going at pains to show that, but seems that is secondary now because her mission in this book is about Gods.

    Action Comics- Birth, Nurturing. City. Cast. Check. We even have normal people, alien people (Grant did not ignore that because both elements make Superman) Kal and Clark has connections to. I understand why he is a Super hero and a populist one. I also get why he might feel alone. We see why he becomes a reporter. We see his evolving costume, his powers. He starts off leaping tall buildings in jeans and tee and then he is who we know him today. We have seen him use his strength, his brain, his speed, his heat vision, etc . We've seen the importance and significance of the armor and the cape... and seen different foes...from a human, Lex, to an AI to an inter-dimensional imp and even the 'devil' (And some say Superman can't be written along magical characters) to show case that. We got the JL and the Legion even appearing and did they detract from him? No. Because they are part of his life. He is also written as a presence, via his personality and yes, his powers allow for that too. All this done in 18 issues with different arcs. Yes, I know Action Comics might not appeal to everyone but the point is, you reboot a character, you reboot in a holistic manner.

    This is a story as some say that could have just been a standalone graphic novel. As a reboot it is taking its godly time (pun intended) to get to basics. But then we should accept that does not matter quite so much in THIS story. So to the OP...just accept it. This Diana is lost in a bubble dealing with her Gods. Thankfully sometimes she leaves and steps in the DCU because of other writers and we get a sense she has a life outside of this empty London, did have some reason why she wants to be WW, and she has powers that makes an impact and difference in the real world.
    This bears repeating and is pretty much spot on to how I feel.

    It's a reboot, yet the character, a year and a half later, is still undefined in history, in definition, in powers and in purpose outside of 'protect Zola and the baby.' It's a good story, but it should have been only part of the reboot, not the entirety of it. Azzarello is in charge of redefining the character, but instead seems busier redefining the Greek and new gods and has left the 'superhero' out of the story. I was cool with the idea of Wonder Woman as a horror *story* but not as a horror *character*.

    She is, at her core, an inspiration to women and to the world, the premiere female superhero in the DC universe. With a complete reboot, we have so many gaps in her history - we still don't know where the costume came from, why she left home, why she's in London where the lasso came from, etc. These are basic elements that Azzarello would have been free to ignore *if* he hadn't opted to rewrite her back story so much. By making this a clear, hard reboot, he's left gaping holes like this that are more obvious than if he had just left her history alone and jumped into a new story.

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