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  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    In regards to the flesh suits, that's something Morrisons other godly beings also use, like Zauriel mentions Asmodel would use them next time he came to Earth to make him immune to that 'scream' the angel's can do.
    Indeed, Millar played with that idea especially later in the sequel, Paradise Lost.

    There seems to be a distinct difference here, as the New Gods are platonic idea-beings and the Angels didn't seem to be as wide-spread or 'important' to the every day existence of the universe. The application of the whole cave allegory, with different incarnations based on different appearances, was specific to the New Gods, and a nice little continuity patch AND an innovation that allows writers to do what they like with the New Gods while keeping them sufficiently grand. It allows me, as a fan, an in-story excuse to do what I've always done; pick and choose the continuity that appeals to me and disregard any story that I don't like as a particularly weak 'shadow' or 'projection'.



    It sits above parallel universes at least (since I cant remember if it's even been explained, I take parallel universes as the ones with an Earth in it, while non-parallel ones are the ones like the Fourth World, Azarath and Trigon universe of birth). The Phantom Stranger at least has come across what he called an Omniversal Nexus, so supposedly the Fourth World isn't the 'highest' form of dimension.
    I'm not sure how the Phantom Stranger coming across an omniversal nexus in any way impacts the nature of the Fourth World dimension/universe/whatever.

    The only piece we've had that specifically gives us any indication was in Pollack's New Gods run, which indicates that all the mortal universes exist as small 'air pockets' in the grand New Gods universe. Which would make the entire DC Multiverse a small thing indeed.

    Myself, I think it has much more to do with the nature of the reality than it does the 'size' of it. I take the New Gods universe to be something beyond our imagination, too pure and too bright to really be understood, where everything has alive with significance. It's not just that the physical multiverse is 'smaller', it's that the very fabric of its reality is duller, weaker; it is the shadow, the New Gods the FORM and the FIRE.
    Last edited by Desaad; 03-17-2013 at 05:53 AM.
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  2. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by ResIpsaLoquitur View Post
    If this is true, then one thing I've never understood is how Apokolips still seemed to be a physical location in the main DCU. I remember in SUPERMAN/DOOMSDAY: HUNTER/PREY, Doomsday flew in a rocket ship to Apokolips. Not sure how that's possible if Apokolips is in another dimension.
    He stowed away on an Apokoliptan transport, which has Boom Tube tech.
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  3. #18
    Elder Member Sean Walsh's Avatar
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    Boom Tube tech changes the size of the New Gods, or anyone using them to access the world of the New Gods. Their Fourth World is a much grander and larger-in-scale place than . Peter David had Supergirl transported to Apokolips once via magic; when she arrived, she was essentially Atom-sized....because she wasn't exposed to a Boom Tube (which obviously changes one's physiology) to get there.

    I wonder if perhaps Morrison's concept of the New God avatars is tied into that idea of the Fourth World being not only another dimension, but a god realm. Technology powered by, or even infused with, some sort of god element (the X-element, most likely) is used to transport to and from the Fourth World. It alters size because the 2 dimensions are of different proportions, but also alters a normal being's perception of them, on either side. I'd also love to see someone take the idea of a god (X-)element infused in the Boom Tubes and run with how it'd affect superheroes or any non-god individuals who use it.

  4. #19
    Senior Member hunter_peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Walsh View Post
    Boom Tube tech changes the size of the New Gods, or anyone using them to access the world of the New Gods. Their Fourth World is a much grander and larger-in-scale place than . Peter David had Supergirl transported to Apokolips once via magic; when she arrived, she was essentially Atom-sized....because she wasn't exposed to a Boom Tube (which obviously changes one's physiology) to get there.

    I wonder if perhaps Morrison's concept of the New God avatars is tied into that idea of the Fourth World being not only another dimension, but a god realm. Technology powered by, or even infused with, some sort of god element (the X-element, most likely) is used to transport to and from the Fourth World. It alters size because the 2 dimensions are of different proportions, but also alters a normal being's perception of them, on either side. I'd also love to see someone take the idea of a god (X-)element infused in the Boom Tubes and run with how it'd affect superheroes or any non-god individuals who use it.
    Well, Vibe was empowered by being caught in the event horizon of a boom tube, so he might be a current example of what you're talking about.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desaad View Post
    I'm not sure how the Phantom Stranger coming across an omniversal nexus in any way impacts the nature of the Fourth World dimension/universe/whatever.

    The only piece we've had that specifically gives us any indication was in Pollack's New Gods run, which indicates that all the mortal universes exist as small 'air pockets' in the grand New Gods universe. Which would make the entire DC Multiverse a small thing indeed.

    Myself, I think it has much more to do with the nature of the reality than it does the 'size' of it. I take the New Gods universe to be something beyond our imagination, too pure and too bright to really be understood, where everything has alive with significance. It's not just that the physical multiverse is 'smaller', it's that the very fabric of its reality is duller, weaker; it is the shadow, the New Gods the FORM and the FIRE.
    Actually that was the New 52 Phantom Stranger (though it doesn't mention the New Gods specifically):

    So perhaps the Fourth World is now just a part of the Omniverse.

  6. #21
    The-One-Above-All robcastor729's Avatar
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    I thought the only way to find the New Gods Realm was through "Father & Mother Boxes"
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  7. #22
    King Kinnikuman George Taylor's Avatar
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    I like that there's only one Fourth World for the entire multiverse, which apparently is infinite again. The New Gods are the embodiment of ideas that are universal in nature like freedom or evil, so it makes sense that there's only one version of each New God for the DC multiverse since those concepts exist on every world of the multiverse.

    I also like they are spread across multiple universes. I never understood why the New Gods only appeared in one DC Earth and not in the others, apart from the fact that the Earth in which they appeared was the "main" one at the time.
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  8. #23
    King of My World CagedLeo730's Avatar
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    In the pre-new52, the Green Lanterns were able to travel to Apokolips

  9. #24
    Senior Member FIFTY-TWO (52)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Taylor View Post
    I like that there's only one Fourth World for the entire multiverse, which apparently is infinite again. The New Gods are the embodiment of ideas that are universal in nature like freedom or evil, so it makes sense that there's only one version of each New God for the DC multiverse since those concepts exist on every world of the multiverse.

    I also like they are spread across multiple universes. I never understood why the New Gods only appeared in one DC Earth and not in the others, apart from the fact that the Earth in which they appeared was the "main" one at the time.
    I think there was a lot on interest in the "main" Earth because it was the focal point of the multiverse, and also because its populace contained the Anti-life Equation in its DNA.
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  10. #25

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    I actually really like Morrison's idea of each Darkseid that visits the different Earths being a "shadow" or "avatar" of the true Darkseid, but that notion seems to fly out the window as soon as the Justice League heroes actually go to the Fourth World themselves. In that case, wouldn't they be meeting the real Darkseid?

    Also, I like how the New Gods are ideas personified, but then it's really hard to see them go through things like Darkseid's political marriages (from Doomsday's origins). It's really interesting to see how all these ideas about the Fourth World connect, but then I feel like, some ideas have to be discarded for others to really matter. A really recent example would be discarding the ideas from Countdown to Final Crisis to really give Final Crisis a greater (and more intentional) impact.

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Henzapper View Post
    A really recent example would be discarding the ideas from Countdown to Final Crisis to really give Final Crisis a greater (and more intentional) impact.
    That shouldn't be a problem as the writer of 'Final Crisis' (and, I suspect, most of the readers of) had no issue disregarding 'Countdown To Final Crisis' :P

    As to the Justice League visiting Apokolips, I agree that the idea of gods and avatars gets strained to the breaking point when the supposed 'God of All Evil' gets reduced to a problem that can be solved by punching. Even still, with a willing suspension of disbelief, it holds together. One take is that our superheroes are nascent gods themselves (the prophecy of the 'Fifth World') so when they visit Apokolips they are being "blown up to God size" and are able to clash with Darkseid and company on that plane as almost equals. As to visuals, they see Darkseid as much as they are able to process him (think of how Morrison shows Batman and Superman dealing with their antagonists from the 5th Dimension) and would probably reflexively rely on the familiar visual that he most often appears as.

    The political intrigues and petty machinations of the New Gods is really just an extension of a tradition that goes back to any of the ancient pantheons (Greek, Roman, Egyptian) that interprets the struggles of Heaven through familiar human conflicts and dramas. I think it is more of a reflection on how we choose to interpret the concepts than any sort of limitations of the concepts themselves.
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