"Claremont Sticks Up For Ms. Marvel" & More Meta-Messages

[lilyinblue]

That;s a fair reaction for Rogue to have considering the last time she showed up "just trying to talk", Carol broke her back.

Broke her back? Is this referring to Ms. Marvel 9 & 10? She didn't break her back. Not even close. It was a couple of cracked ribs. (Not trying to excuse the action... but there's a big difference in the severity of the injury there.)

At this point, I think that story was so long ago I don't think it's even necessary to retcon it. Retconning it just brings unecessary attention to it.

But at the time Claremont was doing Avengers Annual 10, I suppose that was one viable option to consider. If Marcus was manipulating Carol he in theory could have been manipulating the rest of them. In theory.

I have to agree. This is over 30 years ago now. IF they were to start manufacturing a retcon, it'd mean they had a reason to bring this story back up in earnest... which is something I think Marvel would rather avoid.

[Mark_S]

Nope, Magik put her in to it. As soon as the prison is revealed, Rogue has reservations about what the heck is happening.

Trust me, I can get more skewed but I'm distracted today by other matters. Rogue had reservations only after she saw what Magick did. Prior to that she easily beat Carol. And her reservations didn't stop Carol from enduring hell for a while because Rogue easily caught her. That the fight and its consequences to Carol mirrored Carol's own fights against under powered heroes during civil war and the consequences to them I find ironic and mildly pleasing. It would have been more pleasing if it wasn't in my opinion so totally biased toward Rogue. But that was my point, the writer liked Rogue more than he did Carol, thus Rogue gets the good parts of the story and Carol merely becomes a prop in Rogue's story. This is how they've been writing since that first time Carol as Binary tried to beat up Rogue and the X-men stopped her. Rogue has a legion of defenders who don't care what she did to Carol and popularity brings its own immunity.

[Predabot]

I wouldnt worry about it. Meta-messaging online is akin to reading animal entrails and predicting the future. Anybody can read anything into any story.

Like how Rogue went from Ugly to pretty when she turned good reinforcing the stereotype that only the beautiful are Good.




So I get our point. But this thread is just conjecture.

There's actually a possible no-prize for this one, that I don't think I've seen brought up very often. ( in fact, I thought I was the first, for a while)

Namely, that the Psyche-Magnitron that magnified and enhanced Carol into Ms Marvel didn't just turn her into the pinnacle of power, but into the ULTIMATE HUMAN as well! Namely, it worked like the Kree-version of the Super-Soldier serum, so she turned into a taller, musclier, BUSTIER and BOOTIER bootilicious version of herself.

I.e, one of Ms Marvel's powers is actually her now almost super-human good looks. This optimization was then transferred to Rogue as well, when she absorbed her powers.

[Mark_S]

Broke her back? Is this referring to Ms. Marvel 9 & 10? She didn't break her back. Not even close. It was a couple of cracked ribs. (Not trying to excuse the action... but there's a big difference in the severity of the injury there.)

Also as I remember it was a different dimensional version of Carol who crossed over who started it. At any rate the Beast was mad at Carol for hurting Rogue, conveniently forgetting that Rogue once tried to murder Carol.

But again like I said this is like talking to a Clinton supporter about Monica or a Nixon supporter about Watergate. No matter what the wrong done people have the ability to minimize it and even paint the victim as the criminal. For myself I try not to pay too much attention and keep telling myself not to pay attention, but Carol is a character I once really enjoyed reading and every so often I pay attention.

[albone]

I'm not entirely sure she actually tried to murder Carol... but yeah, you can make an argument the worst thing Rogue probably ever did (and the second worst thing that ever happened to Carol) ended up being the best possible thing that could have happened to Rogue in hindsight. So there's a bit of irony there.

I agree that Rogue considers it the worst thing she ever did and that it's the 2nd worst thing to happen to Carol, but Rogue DID mean to murder Carol. If nothing else, when the essence that Rogue stole began to overwhelm Rogue, she tossed her over the side of the Golden Gate bridge (a popular suicide spot because it's so effective) to try and quiet the noise in her head. However, Rouge has basically said that she's glad that Carol survived that bridge toss and Carol, for her part, said that she was glad that the part of her that Rogue stole didn't kill her, the whole Magneto-Savage Land thing.

[albone]

It's obviously open to interpretation, but I know I'm not the only one who read that incident as Carol essentially letting herself get captured (as opposed to Rogue easily beating her) - she flew down there to open Rogue's eyes and if that was what it took, that was what she was going to do. It worked.

Lily, you are awesome. That's how I felt about it too, despite it not being addressed specifically.

So... long story short...

Limbo is unpleasant. Carol's messed up. Rogue's messed up But, they've both done what they can to atone for their actions. (I fully believe that good characters can make bad decisions without it ruining them forever. Personal conflict is a part of storytelling, yo.)

The Marcus thing was just about one of the sh*ttiest storylines Marvel has ever cooked up. But, Claremont has historically shown great respect for Carol as a character... and he fixed it. He didn't make it better, he just shone a light on it for what it really was. And... in the process gave us another popular and well-loved character. So... yay?

PS - I like both Carol AND Rogue. That's cool, right?

Again, awesome. I've been a Rogue fan longer than Carol, but I'm probably a bigger fan or Carol, but I love both ladies. I think that's cool, yay?

[albone]

I think it was understandable that Rogue might have initially attacked Carol after she showed up. But Rogue wasn't willing to reason with her even afterwards. If that was a trap, it wouldn't have been JUST Carol she were fighting.

And the problem with telling Rogue that she wants to meet with her is that there are so many telepathic mutants (plus the P5), even if Rogue was willing to secretly meet with Carol there's no gurantee that someone else wouldn't find out. Rogue herself had to NOT know what was going on.

I think the whole thing was mishandled...by Gage. Carol comes off looking weak and naive, and Rogue came off as Mary Sue.

There's a few of us who are happy to forget about AvX-Carol and Rogue and hope the next time can be better for both of them.

[albone]

As far as Claremont, Carol and Rogue goes, (thanks to mikeb for cluing ME to this) Claremont wrote a pretty sweet wrap up to their relationship at the very end of Contest of Champions 2. Basically, Carol had a chance to kill Rogue or leave her behind, but Carol says that Rogue is a proven X-man, saving the world over and over, she's a hero and that what happened between them can't be undone but that it might be forgiven. That's pretty cool, eh?

The Rogue fan in me kind of hates Carol for being so forgiving, for being the bigger woman and that's why I would LOVE for Rogue to personally take a bullet for Carol. Me, personally, I would hate to be in that spot and just even it out, OR for Carol to go Dark Phoenix and almost kill Rogue (not really). Again though, I think fans of both have a great situation and let me just say that both Fan Appreciation sites for both women have awesome people (like mikeb, jen, lily, MARK S., CJ, antiochene and everyone else!!)

[jen]

Also as I remember it was a different dimensional version of Carol who crossed over who started it. At any rate the Beast was mad at Carol for hurting Rogue, conveniently forgetting that Rogue once tried to murder Carol.

But again like I said this is like talking to a Clinton supporter about Monica or a Nixon supporter about Watergate. No matter what the wrong done people have the ability to minimize it and even paint the victim as the criminal. For myself I try not to pay too much attention and keep telling myself not to pay attention, but Carol is a character I once really enjoyed reading and every so often I pay attention.

Well you are very biased, so I am not sure I should reply. I don't think Rogue fans minimize her actions. In fact, it is cause she was so wrong that I like her. What Rogue did to Ms. Marvel is what prompts her on her road to redemption. Her motive was to protect herself by getting the jump on Carol but her info, her who life was misguided. She was WRONG. Rogue was raised to hate the Avengers and specifically her mother had a vendetta against Ms. Marvel. Rogue overhears Destiny tell Mystique the she had a vision of Rogue being done in by Carol. Rogue decides she will handle this herself and confronts Carol herself with very dire consequences. Does she intend to kill her, I don't know. She definitely wasn't there to have tea.





Anyhoo, I like both Carol and Rogue as well. Rogue may be my fave, but Carol is no slouch! ;-)

[jen]

Sorry, double post! :-(

[albone]

Well you are very biased, so I am not sure I should reply. I don't think Rogue fans minimize her actions. In fact, it is cause she was so wrong that I like her. What Rogue did to Ms. Marvel is what prompts her on her road to redemption. Her motive was to protect herself by getting the jump on Carol but her info, her who life was misguided. She was WRONG. Rogue was raised to hate the Avengers and specifically her mother had a vendetta against Ms. Marvel. Rogue overhears Destiny tell Mystique the she had a vision of Rogue being done in by Carol. Rogue decides she will handle this herself and confronts Carol herself with very dire consequences. Does she intend to kill her, I don't know. She definitely wasn't there to have tea.


Anyhoo, I like both Carol and Rogue as well. Rogue may be my fave, but Carol is no slouch! ;-)

Me too! I mean, can you imagine either woman today, without each other in the past? Painful as it is, even when we try to discuss it here, I think they're both better off with that painful past.

[lilyinblue]

Somehow, I feel it worth noting...

My intro to the Marvel Universe, like so many people right round my age, was the 90s X-Men cartoon. Rogue was my favorite. It really was through Rogue that I got my first exposure to Carol. I still have much love for Rogue, but we all know who my favorite is.

[albone]

Somehow, I feel it worth noting...

My intro to the Marvel Universe, like so many people right round my age, was the 90s X-Men cartoon. Rogue was my favorite. It really was through Rogue that I got my first exposure to Carol. I still have much love for Rogue, but we all know who my favorite is.

Same thing, but also the Jim Lee X-men and the savage land story. I really didn't get hardcore into Carol until about 2001. O_o

[jen]

Me too! I mean, can you imagine either woman today, without each other in the past? Painful as it is, even when we try to discuss it here, I think they're both better off with that painful past.

Absolutely. They have a past that is intertwined! It's great for both characters. Rogue definitely rose by leaps and bounds in popularity, but I think more folks just relate to her because of her redemption and her unique powers. Rogue's popularity with fans does not diminish the fabulousness of Captain Marvel!

[Mark_S]

Well you are very biased, so I am not sure I should reply. I don't think Rogue fans minimize her actions. In fact, it is cause she was so wrong that I like her. What Rogue did to Ms. Marvel is what prompts her on her road to redemption. Her motive was to protect herself by getting the jump on Carol but her info, her who life was misguided. She was WRONG. Rogue was raised to hate the Avengers and specifically her mother had a vendetta against Ms. Marvel. Rogue overhears Destiny tell Mystique the she had a vision of Rogue being done in by Carol. Rogue decides she will handle this herself and confronts Carol herself with very dire consequences. Does she intend to kill her, I don't know. She definitely wasn't there to have tea.





Anyhoo, I like both Carol and Rogue as well. Rogue may be my fave, but Carol is no slouch! ;-)

I am biased, I've been for a long time now. But if Rogue didn't mean to kill Carol on that bridge what was she going to do? I don't like either of them now but I didn't like Rogue to start with and to be honest I thought the reason Carol took of after the X-men wouldn't buck Charles when he favored Rogue over Carol -and the reason Carol forgave her later- was because Charles altered Carol's mind to make her more forgiving. I can't see how you could forgive someone who -at the very least- turned your life into hell and profited by it. Rogue would never have been the hero she was seen to be if she hadn't had Carol's powers (another reason I figured that Charles favored her over Carol, Rogue was a powerhouse that he could add to the X-men) and this was demonstrated perfectly in the X-men cartoon of the 1990's where Carol was mercilessly sealed into Rogue's mind by Jean and promptly forgotten about. To the X-men she was a fellow mutant and they didn't care how she got her powers. In the comics they did care, they did give her a hard time, but in the end they chose Carol over Rogue. Carol has had a lot of friends stab her in the back over the years. Maybe that's why I can't really forget what she did in cw where she stabbed friends in the back and -like Rogue- profited by it becoming head of the Avengers and gaining her own SHIELD strike force because she was the best at hunting down heroes. The last thing you expect someone who knows the sting of betrayal to do is betray another.