Teen Titans #17 Question (SPOILERS)

[Hostile Kangaroo]

Note: I haven't read the issue in question, just some of the spoilers and discussion.



And sometimes immoral and illegal are the same. Depending on where you live, impersonating a woman's husband to get her to have sex with you IS considered rape under the law - there's a fairly high profile case on this in California where the conviction was overturned because the woman wasn't married:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2406167.html

Now, we don't have many clear laws regarding demons taking over a person's behavior, so, it's hard to say just what the law would/should be in the DCU. But, if someone else is driving Tim's body - eg., Tim is NOT in control and someone else is directly pulling the strings - then, yes, imo, I say that Cassie AND Tim were both raped.



Perhaps mention that to the writers who create these scenarios?



You're right that real life has lots of ugly situations. I'm not against a good, honest look at some of that ugly. But, let's be honest, the writing on stuff like this is not typically a good, honest look - it's usually shallow, sensationalistic crap. In my book, if the writer isn't up to handling it well, the writer shouldn't be handling it at all.

That's true. I think if it is acknowledged then it does need to be handled in a way that shows an honest look. I don't want it to be skimmed over easily, if it is brought up it should be a real issue and show real emotions and a fair look at the situation and its ramifications for the characters involved.

[king of hybrids]

Seems to me that the people who think Hippolyta was raped because Zeus was a god in her pantheon are simply looking for reasons to dislike what Azzarello did. It just feels like a thin argument to try to justify a negative opinion of the work in general. But thats neither here nor there for this thread.

As for Tim, the grin makes me assume this is Joker related and not Raven related, as do the solicits. But I suppose she could have a hand in it too. Hmm....actually....Tim's actions seem pretty odd, even for victims of Joker gas attacks and whatnot....just far too....in control. Joker's attacks always cause pure chaos and this feels too directed.

Now, Joker did do something pretty messed up with Tim when he was captured, (if memory serves), and there were trace elements of something in everyone's systems at the end of DotF. But again, turning Tim into a morally empty horndog doesnt seem like it would really fit. Maybe that's just Lobdell's writing, which can be thin as hell at times, but maybe Raven is compounding the problem and giving the Joker-addled Tim some direction and focus.

It might fit. Cassie's armor is supposed to be linked to Trigon, and Solstice (who I am really becoming a fan of) has some secrets of her own which have been hinted at and alluded to recently. So, assuming Raven is involved in Tim's actions, taking advantage of his Joker weakened state, it might make sense that he's "targeting" the girls (giggity.)

Yup, thats my theory for now.

i don't think it was so much tim being turned to the mentality of a usual joker victim, i think whatever brainwashing was put in is set to "imitate joker". just like jason's probably gotten some skin bleach in the face; perhaps tim's "new" personality is programmed to try do unto cassie and kiran what joker did to harley (and, apparently, her predecessors)?

of course, destroying every single relationship tim has in the process is part of the "joke"

[Aprillis]

But no, I don't think Cassandra is aware Tim is going nuts or even altered. But apparently she is a free spirit and has...already been there with him. Not sure that counts.

I don't get that part. I know it was insinuated that they've had sex before, but... when? It doesn't fit in with the plot of the story. Was their first time before he was brainwashed, or sometime after? (Or maybe it's just Lobdell's sucky writing)

And concerning whether Tim or Cassie were raped, it's both. Tim because he was coerced into it, and Cassie because she was deceived into sleeping with... 'something' that's not Tim.

[Rob_Olivera]

Note: I haven't read the issue in question, just some of the spoilers and discussion.



And sometimes immoral and illegal are the same. Depending on where you live, impersonating a woman's husband to get her to have sex with you IS considered rape under the law - there's a fairly high profile case on this in California where the conviction was overturned because the woman wasn't married

Fair enough under the hypothetical twin scenario. But by the same token, shouldn't women who consider a mate based on how much he makes, be considered a prostitute and be arrested in states where prostitution is illegal? Been a while since I've been on Match.com, but plenty of that going around.

[HokiePokie]

Note: I haven't read the issue in question, just some of the spoilers and discussion.



And sometimes immoral and illegal are the same. Depending on where you live, impersonating a woman's husband to get her to have sex with you IS considered rape under the law - there's a fairly high profile case on this in California where the conviction was overturned because the woman wasn't married:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2406167.html

Now, we don't have many clear laws regarding demons taking over a person's behavior, so, it's hard to say just what the law would/should be in the DCU. But, if someone else is driving Tim's body - eg., Tim is NOT in control and someone else is directly pulling the strings - then, yes, imo, I say that Cassie AND Tim were both raped.



Perhaps mention that to the writers who create these scenarios?



You're right that real life has lots of ugly situations. I'm not against a good, honest look at some of that ugly. But, let's be honest, the writing on stuff like this is not typically a good, honest look - it's usually shallow, sensationalistic crap. In my book, if the writer isn't up to handling it well, the writer shouldn't be handling it at all.

Yeah, rape in television, books, and etc. is so poorly depicted. Rape haunts people for life but typically in television shows, the rape only haunts that person for maybe a few episodes before it's never mentioned or thought of again. I think when writers decide to have a character be raped, they need to pull through and make it something actually significant for the character for more than one storyline. Bruce Wayne is still heavily influenced by the murder of his parents which happened years ago. That's how rape should be handled.

[ascended]

Not just rape, but any major event in a character's life.

Bruce's parents being murdered still gets play because its part of his origin and any time that origin or his motivations get brought up, their murder is the root of it. But what about Gotham being cut off from the rest of the United States? Dont you think that would be a pretty big event in Bruce's life that would affect how he does things forevermore? But it almost never got mentioned again afterwards. Or what about the earthquakes and epidemics? Nope, rarely brought up. And when they did get brought up, it was to serve the writer's current plot, not explore how it dramatically changed the lives of those involved.

Or how about Superman, who is the last of an endangered species, suddenly having his people brought back, only to be killed off to (near) extinction once again, this time by his adopted world? Now okay, New Krypton only ended a year before the New52, but even so, it didnt get played up like the life changing event you would assume it would be. Even Grounded had next to nothing to do with WoNK in the end, its only link being a piece of Kryptonian tech that had fallen to earth and screwed with Clark's head.

Now, as for this particular issue, Im not saying its not sick. It is. It is disgusting, violating, and wrong on every possible level. Which of course, is the point. And I hope that Lobdell either leaves it be, or devotes enough time and effort into it to make the events carry real weight and do justice to the real world trauma its meant to convey.

But I still think that to call it rape is pulling the term into a gray area that cant properly be defined given the fictional aspects of the story. And that does a disservice to real rape victims.

[Outside_85]

Alternative theory: Maybe we are reading it wrong. Perhaps just after the scene switches to Raven, Tim actually breaks off whatever they were doing and left, just like he left Cassandra hanging before he left for Gotham and DotF. In this case Cassandra's question should be understood as, 'are we really going to break off again before we get started?'

[slvn]

Fair enough under the hypothetical twin scenario. But by the same token, shouldn't women who consider a mate based on how much he makes, be considered a prostitute and be arrested in states where prostitution is illegal? Been a while since I've been on Match.com, but plenty of that going around.

Plenty of that goes on in Victorian and Restoration novels, too. "It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife." It seems too time-honored to be considered prostitution--although I guess the oldest profession is sort of time-honored too. It would be funny to see a Pride and Prejudice sequel in which Mrs. Bennett gets arrested for being a madame, with a bordello consisting of her daughters.

I get what you're saying--in its broadest, loosest definition, prostitution is sex for money, and in its broadest, loosest definition, rape is sex without informed consent. But pragmatically no one is going to prosecute someone for wanting to financially "marry well," and no one is going to prosecute someone for rape for petty lies like exaggerating one's income. (And probably no one is going to charge a minor with rape for lying about her age--though a read a law review article that this might technically qualify as rape.) The legal definitions of prostitution involve taking a specific payment for a specific sexual act, and the legal definitions of rape involve specific ways of breaching the consent requirement. But force isn't the only way; like AmericanWonder was saying, some jurisdiction recognize "rape by deception" (as well as rape by non-forcible coercion). So when it comes to lying about one's identity, rape by deception is a real crime, at least in some jurisdictions.

So to me, philosophically, the rape question might revolve around whether possessed Tim is still Tim. Is he basically a demon wearing a Tim suit, or is he Tim with an influential passenger inside? In the first case, he's lying about his identity; in the second case, not so much, maybe.

Either way, though, it's icky.

AmericanWonder]In my book, if the writer isn't up to handling it well, the writer shouldn't be handling it at all.

I agree with that. Like you. I haven't read the book, so I don't have an opinion about whether the writer is handling it well in this case.

[Rob_Olivera]

Plenty of that goes on in Victorian and Restoration novels, too. "It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife." It seems too time-honored to be considered prostitution--although I guess the oldest profession is sort of time-honored too. It would be funny to see a Pride and Prejudice sequel in which Mrs. Bennett gets arrested for being a madame, with a bordello consisting of her daughters.

I get what you're saying--in its broadest, loosest definition, prostitution is sex for money, and in its broadest, loosest definition, rape is sex without informed consent. But pragmatically no one is going to prosecute someone for wanting to financially "marry well," and no one is going to prosecute someone for rape for petty lies like exaggerating one's income. (And probably no one is going to charge a minor with rape for lying about her age--though a read a law review article that this might technically qualify as rape.) The legal definitions of prostitution involve taking a specific payment for a specific sexual act, and the legal definitions of rape involve specific ways of breaching the consent requirement. But force isn't the only way; like AmericanWonder was saying, some jurisdiction recognize "rape by deception" (as well as rape by non-forcible coercion). So when it comes to lying about one's identity, rape by deception is a real crime, at least in some jurisdictions.

So to me, philosophically, the rape question might revolve around whether possessed Tim is still Tim. Is he basically a demon wearing a Tim suit, or is he Tim with an influential passenger inside? In the first case, he's lying about his identity; in the second case, not so much, maybe.

Either way, though, it's icky.



I agree with that. Like you. I haven't read the book, so I don't have an opinion about whether the writer is handling it well in this case.

Well.. I knew that sooner or later, someone would fish-out my highly hyperbolic post! LOL. Glad it was you, you won't eat me.

I cant really argue this point too much because as you suspected, and as I freely admit.. was meant a little sarcastic. But, at the same time I feel that your examples are old. I feel that after WW2 women began to be more self reliant, and certainly after the 70's. Ideally speaking, this mentality should be eradicated by today. But it is not.

[slvn]

Well.. I knew that sooner or later, someone would fish-out my highly hyperbolic post! LOL. Glad it was you, you won't eat me.

I cant really argue this point too much because as you suspected, and as I freely admit.. was meant a little sarcastic. But, at the same time I feel that your examples are old. I feel that after WW2 women began to be more self reliant, and certainly after the 70's. Ideally speaking, this mentality should be eradicated by today. But it is not.

I hear ya--but, I guess wherever there's money, there's someone willing to do something inappropriate to get it, right? I'm sure there are some guys who'd be interested in marrying for money , too.

[Jabare]

If she consented its not raped.

I know people try to make this argument, and its essentially impossible to quantify in real world terms, cause people can't be possessed or shape shift.

But just thinking in terms of myself. If I slept with someone and it turned out they weren't who I thought they were I wouldn't say I'd been raped the fault would lie with me for being unaware for whatever reason.

I think you can say Cassie was tricked or fooled, but saying she was rape doesn't really fit contextually

[Rob_Olivera]

If she consented its not raped.

I know people try to make this argument, and its essentially impossible to quantify in real world terms, cause people can't be possessed or shape shift.

But just thinking in terms of myself. If I slept with someone and it turned out they weren't who I thought they were I wouldn't say I'd been raped the fault would lie with me for being unaware for whatever reason.

I think you can say Cassie was tricked or fooled, but saying she was rape doesn't really fit contextually

I might say your pride got raped, or your own self esteem. But not physically.

[slvn]

If she consented its not raped.

I know people try to make this argument, and its essentially impossible to quantify in real world terms, cause people can't be possessed or shape shift.

But just thinking in terms of myself. If I slept with someone and it turned out they weren't who I thought they were I wouldn't say I'd been raped the fault would lie with me for being unaware for whatever reason.

You or I personally might chose not to call it rape if it happened to one of us. But, legally or philosophically, it wouldn't really be consensual, either; consent isn't valid if one is deceived about what or to whom one is consenting--and, assuming that you were tricked rather than just making an "unforced error" (so to speak), it would fit the legal definition of rape in some jurisdictions.