In Your Face Jam - Feb 27, 2013

[CBR News]

Brett White dug deep into "The Numbers" to determine the definitive answer to one of fandom's most often asked questions: Who is Marvel's Wonder Woman?


Full article here.

[astrakhan]

IMO, the role of Wonder Woman in the MU is split between Sif and Captain Marvel.

[emteem]

If we judge Marvel's Wonder Woman on the basis of the female character with the most popularity and name recognition among non-comic fans I'm giving it to Mary Jane Watson... even though Marvel have done everything they can to try to screw that up since One More Day.

[zlbenson]

Cool article. In my head-canon, I tend to think that Susan Storm is the most important woman of the Marvel Universe, but that of course doesn't translate to most popular. But it'd be cool if it did. :)

[Sam Robards, Comic Fan]

Without going to the numbers, I'd say Susan Storm's the most important woman in the Marvel Universe (followed by Jean Grey).

Going by the numbers, I agree that Storm's there on top. I adore Storm, and would snap up any solo series she starred in ... unless it dwelled on that Black Panther debacle. Say what you will, but I think that marriage was the worst thing to ever happen to her character.

[lilyinblue]

I honestly hate this question.

The whole "women in comics" thing is of a lot of personal importance to me, so I'm definitely not dismissing the validity of the issue. It's just that I think the real answer is, "Nobody."

Storm may have the most by-the-numbers star power (which still pales by comparison to Diana's)... but there's something else missing that separates Wonder Woman from the rest of the superheroic women, no matter who is publishing them.

We toss the word "iconic" around on these boards so much that it has mostly lost its meaning, so I always cringe when I use it myself... but I will. Wonder Woman is a true CULTURAL icon. (And I mean cultural in the broad-based 'western popular culture as a whole' sense.) Nobody from Marvel mentioned on that list can touch that. And icons aren't born overnight. It takes time, exposure, and lots more time. Today's fragmented media landscape makes it more challenging than ever.

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times. Marvel has no 'Wonder Woman' and they never will.

... but as long as they keep showing the level of support for their heroines that they have in the past 6 months or so... that's perfectly fine by me.

[saucemaster]

I honestly hate this question.

If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times. Marvel has no 'Wonder Woman' and they never will.

... but as long as they keep showing the level of support for their heroines that they have in the past 6 months or so... that's perfectly fine by me.

Seriously, who cares? The fact that they can't even pick #1 or whatever out of huge list of women tells the whole story.

DC can have their Wonder Woman. I'll take Marvel's numerous wonder Women.

[lilyinblue]

Seriously, who cares? The fact that they can't even pick #1 or whatever out of huge list of women tells the whole story.

I definitely disagree with that.

DC has lots of relatively popular women, much like Marvel does... but none of those have reached the level of Wonder Woman either. The 'whole story' is that both publishers have a lot of female characters with middling success and exposure... but there's only one top-tier female super hero... period.

The usual undercurrent of this question is that lots of male heroes have reached the level that Wonder Woman has, but as a woman... she's a total anomaly. So they ask... why hasn't Marvel been able to produce a female character with that high level of cultural impact and recognition?

This isn't the first time this question has been asked and it won't be the last. The biggest secret to Diana's success is that she's a product of a very different era, that is long past now.

The next question I'd ask... more on the side of Storm...

She's got the by-the-numbers win for Marvel, but how well does she do alone on a sustained basis? That's the one thing she's lasting. She's not one of Marvel's winners in terms of sustained solo success. That's something most of the X-Women have seemed to struggle with.

So is it better to give her more attention and try to get her to a point where she can sustain that solo success?

... or is it better to take one of the women who has shown solo viability and work on giving them more broad-scale media exposure?

[icemanjeff79]

Brett interesting topic and I enjoyed how scientific you were about it. The only thing I disagree with is the inclusion of Spider-Girl, whose adventures took place in an alternate reality that don't "count" toward the main Marvel Universe (and the implied inclusion of X-23, who is far too new of a character to be considered a "Wonder Woman" analogue). I'd have chosen some older female characters such as Sif, Polaris, Medusa, Crystal, Gamora, Moondragon, Valkyrie, Hellcat, Misty Knight & Coleen Wing, Dani Moonstar, Karma or Monica Rambeau in that 18th slot. Otherwise, terrific piece.

[saucemaster]

The next question I'd ask... more on the side of Storm...

She's got the by-the-numbers win for Marvel, but how well does she do alone on a sustained basis? That's the one thing she's lasting. She's not one of Marvel's winners in terms of sustained solo success. That's something most of the X-Women have seemed to struggle with.

So is it better to give her more attention and try to get her to a point where she can sustain that solo success?

... or is it better to take one of the women who has shown solo viability and work on giving them more broad-scale media exposure?

This is what I was trying to get at, that you 'definitely disagree'. You might disagree with this, too!
I ask, why should they? What's the point of trying to engineer a woman star like Wonder Woman, especially when, as you astutely point out, that it is seen as an anomaly, when you can just advance an entire universe of them. I would rather see them all rise in popularity and status; a variety women for a variety of fans. I like Captain Marvel, but I also think Sue Storm and Rogue are pretty cool. I'd like to see them all have successful books (though I don't see how it's possible for those two right now), careers, and fandom, rather than just the promotion of one.

I don't know, maybe I am in the wrong arena to make this argument, because if there is one thing that comic fans like more than complaining, it is ranking characters!
I just don't like the idea of 'This is the one'.

Marvel barely has a signature man. I say Spider-Man, obviously, but many say Wolverine, which I find hard to swallow. A case could be made for Iron Man after the last few years. Meanwhile, if you ask about DC's signature male, you get two equal, definitive answers.

[saucemaster]

I definitely disagree with that.

DC has lots of relatively popular women, much like Marvel does... but none of those have reached the level of Wonder Woman either. The 'whole story' is that both publishers have a lot of female characters with middling success and exposure... but there's only one top-tier female super hero... period.

The usual undercurrent of this question is that lots of male heroes have reached the level that Wonder Woman has, but as a woman... she's a total anomaly. So they ask... why hasn't Marvel been able to produce a female character with that high level of cultural impact and recognition?

Because Marvel's women like Sue Storm and Jean Grey was treated in a chauvinist manner when originally appeared, and Marvel has been spending years trying to catch up?

I admit I don't know much about 2nd tier DC characters, so maybe I am thinking that the Marvel women are more popular than they are, because I am 'inside' the Marvel Universe. I realize that Storm is not as popular as Wonder Woman on the outside, but within fandom, it was my assumption that Marvel fans hold women characters in as high regard and popularity as the men. I don't know how to compare movies and sales and cartoons, but as far as popularity, I bet Storm has a fan base as large as Captain America's.

[shokdiesel]

I definitely disagree with that.

The next question I'd ask... more on the side of Storm...

She's got the by-the-numbers win for Marvel, but how well does she do alone on a sustained basis? That's the one thing she's lasting. She's not one of Marvel's winners in terms of sustained solo success. That's something most of the X-Women have seemed to struggle with.

So is it better to give her more attention and try to get her to a point where she can sustain that solo success?

... or is it better to take one of the women who has shown solo viability and work on giving them more broad-scale media exposure?

Let's quit holding our breaths on this with Storm. She's a woman AND she's black. That's two groups that comics, not just Marvel, haven't done a good job featuring. Marvel couldn't even capitalize on the success of the Blade movies to get good solo titles out.

Storm will never be Wonder Woman, but she's more popular with the younger set because of her role in the "X-Men: The Animated Series." Just don't marry her off or have her date Logan. Let her be powerful, regal and unapologetic.

[mathew101281]

Marvel doesn't have a clear cut number one female. Just like they don't have a clear cut number one male character like Superman. the Marvel universe thrives on it's vageness. For example, who is more powerful The Hulk, Silver Surfer or Thor? There are very few absolutes in the Marvel universe, and I think it's like that by design, because it encourages debate which drums up interest. It also is the result of Marvel's more team orientated marketing.

[RLAAMJR.]

and if we count the number of appearances in comics including on teambooks, Storm has the most number of appearances

[.c.h.r.i.s.]

Marvel doesn't have a clear cut number one female. Just like they don't have a clear cut number one male character like Superman. the Marvel universe thrives on it's vagueness. For example, who is more powerful The Hulk, Silver Surfer or Thor? There are very few absolutes in the Marvel universe, and I think it's like that by design, because it encourages debate which drums up interest. It also is the result of Marvel's more team orientated marketing.

Yep. Came here to say this.