R.I.P. New 52 Ryan Choi "the atom"; DC's lack of Asian American male Heroes

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

Honestly, I'm pretty old-school and I'd rather have Choi than Palmer. But that's because of my attachment to Gail Simone's All New Atom series. I'd read the earliest Palmer stuff and it was nothing to write home about. Choi's series was this wonderfully quirky and entertaining comic. It was my favorite series at the time. At least, until Remender became writer and turned it a good 180 degrees in tone.

That series could have been about Palmer, anyway.

[DochaDocha]

Not what I meant (I don't think many of them are about honor, though). I meant iversity as in non-WASP characters, just that.

If my goal were diversity, I'd rather have a team full of WASP-looking characters than another Asian person doing martial arts. I have negative interest in Katana, and am disappointed they decided to feature this character prominently.

[big al]

this might not be the most popular opinion on here but I'd rather they slowly introduce more diverse characters, I should say original characters rather than take an iconic character like the Atom or even Firestorm and change the ethnicity just for the sake of diversity.

I have no problem with ethnic characters but they have to be introduced in an organic way, not just taking a character that maybe hasn't been used in awhile and killing the person who previously held the identity just to get an Asian or a Black character out there.

[AdamYJ]

That series could have been about Palmer, anyway.

It could have, but it wasn't. The point is that what makes these characters resonate with people is the stories they're used in.

I'm not totally anti-Ray. It's just that the only version of him I've really liked was the smart-alecky version from the old Hawkman and the Atom comics who was kind of mirrored in his JLU incarnation.

this might not be the most popular opinion on here but I'd rather they slowly introduce more diverse characters, I should say original characters rather than take an iconic character like the Atom or even Firestorm and change the ethnicity just for the sake of diversity.

I have no problem with ethnic characters but they have to be introduced in an organic way, not just taking a character that maybe hasn't been used in awhile and killing the person who previously held the identity just to get an Asian or a Black character out there.

The problem is that the DC train is already chugging along. All the big character slots are taken by the same seven or eight White folks there have always been. If there were some strategic time when it would be possible to introduce a brand new character who had the chance of becoming a big deal, that would be the time to do it. As it is, any new character that's introduced will pretty soon become yet another obscure DC superhero that's brought out for big crowd scenes. I can't even think of any brand new characters from recent years that have gone on to become a big deal.

[Sure Yaa]

There's nothing diverse about "Samurai, Kyodai Ken or Tsukiri or use Rising Sun, Dr. Light, Katana, General August or SYT." Take away their swords (if they have them), and power set and who are they...someone who is always in fear of bringing dishonor to someone important to them and meditates in the dark a lot.

exactly, most "classic" asian heroes are just ridiculous stereotypes, i mean i like that they are all good at kung fu but that shouldnt revolve around their powerset, look at bruce wayne, master of kung fu but people dont need to highlight it

hopefully some random dc exec sees this topic and actually starts thinking about the fans they are ignoring

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

If my goal were diversity, I'd rather have a team full of WASP-looking characters than another Asian person doing martial arts. I have negative interest in Katana, and am disappointed they decided to feature this character prominently.

I'm not sure about your complain. Of those listed, at least Dr. Light, Rising Sun, most of the SYT, General August in Iron are not about martial arts at all. The same can be said about Xombi, Linda Park and the counterparts of Samurai in JLU and Young Justice.

Disliking the use of martial arts when it comes to an Asian characters holds some grounds, in that it would be absurd to make every Asian character a martial artist. However, one must take in consideration how Japanese writers portray Japanese vigilantes. There's a big deal of martial arts there. In fact, if DC wanted to honor Asian pop-cult there should be a couple of Asian characters with super powers achieved through martial arts training, like levitation and psychokinetic blasting, just to mention the most common ones. You should also consider that most of the non-metahuman white vigilantes are martial artists.

Having a couple of them about honor, isn't bad, since it's an actual cultural thing (even if its fading in the postmodern world). Samurai and Rising sun are perfect for that.

this might not be the most popular opinion on here but I'd rather they slowly introduce more diverse characters, I should say original characters rather than take an iconic character like the Atom or even Firestorm and change the ethnicity just for the sake of diversity.

I have no problem with ethnic characters but they have to be introduced in an organic way, not just taking a character that maybe hasn't been used in awhile and killing the person who previously held the identity just to get an Asian or a Black character out there.

I think that half the problem is that DC doesn't capitalize on what they already have. I' rather have a Katana solo than another minority in the thights if a classic (note: i'd say the same about a white guy in the tights of a classic).Black Lightning / Black Vulcan is a great asset. He needs some work with his rogues gallery and extended supporting cast. And more consistency in other media. It was a big set back that his rights were not available for Super Friends, Static Shock and JLU. However, as far as I'm concerned, Black Vulcan, Soul Power and maybe Juice are him with a different name.

It could have, but it wasn't. The point is that what makes these characters resonate with people is the stories they're used in.

I'm not totally anti-Ray. It's just that the only version of him I've really liked was the smart-alecky version from the old Hawkman and the Atom comics who was kind of mirrored in his JLU incarnation.

Well, look at it from a preventive point of view. If it had been a Gail Simone series about Ray Palmer you'd have liked it anyway, he'd have been used in very similar stories.

[DochaDocha]

I'm not sure about your complain. Of those listed, at least Dr. Light, Rising Sun, most of the SYT, General August in Iron are not about martial arts at all. The same can be said about Xombi, Linda Park and the counterparts of Samurai in JLU and Young Justice.

Disliking the use of martial arts when it comes to an Asian characters holds some grounds, in that it would be absurd to make every Asian character a martial artist. However, one must take in consideration how Japanese writers portray Japanese vigilantes. There's a big deal of martial arts there. In fact, if DC wanted to honor Asian pop-cult there should be a couple of Asian characters with super powers achieved through martial arts training, like levitation and psychokinetic blasting, just to mention the most common ones. You should also consider that most of the non-metahuman white vigilantes are martial artists.

Having a couple of them about honor, isn't bad, since it's an actual cultural thing (even if its fading in the postmodern world). Samurai and Rising sun are perfect for that.

I wasn't talking about a specific character or incident. I'm just saying in general, let's make fewer Asian characters, across all of fiction, martial artists. It's like some writers today have never met an Asian person.

I would rather have a story with no Asians than a story with a couple Asians who were martial artists.

[BrianT]

Well before the New 52, I suggested using Striker Z from The Power Company to Dan Didio after Ryan Choi's death. He said he would pass the suggestion on to the writers/editors. Alas, nothing came of it. I still think the character has potential.

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

I wasn't talking about a specific character or incident. I'm just saying in general, let's make fewer Asian characters, across all of fiction, martial artists. It's like some writers today have never met an Asian person.

I would rather have a story with no Asians than a story with a couple Asians who were martial artists.

Well, there's not problem then, as most of the Asian characters are not martial artists.

However, there's nothing wrong with some, considering that a really big chunk of the heroes, villains and antiheroes of Asian fiction are martial artists. Asian culture is making that perception official. And a big part of the white vigilantes are martial artists as well. Black Canary is as much of a martial artist as Kato or Katana. The same can be said of Batman, Robin, Green Arrow, etc.

[DochaDocha]

Well, there's not problem then, as most of the Asian characters are not martial artists.

However, there's nothing wrong with some, considering that a really big chunk of the heroes, villains and antiheroes of Asian fiction are martial artists. Asian culture is making that perception official. And a big part of the white vigilantes are martial artists as well. Black Canary is as much of a martial artist as Kato or Katana. The same can be said of Batman, Robin, Green Arrow, etc.

I don't want to pretend I'm an expert on the subject, but portrayals of Asian men in movies, TV, and comics has been historically pretty awful, with a disproportionate number of characters as martial artists. I hate the Katana character, and it kind of ticks me off that she got an ongoing series. She's a bunch of tired stereotypes rolled into one, and right now she's probably the marquee Asian character in DC Comics, which IMO sucks.

I don't want to say you should never make an Asian character a martial artist, but damn, try making more Asian characters NOT martial artists. I mean, there's only like a billion and a half real life people who fit that description. That would be like if an Asian fictional universe made a majority of their white American characters cowboys.

[Tandaemonium]

Not what I meant (I don't think many of them are about honor, though). I meant iversity as in non-WASP characters, just that.

That's not diversity; that's tokenism. Semantics, I know...but inclusion of non-WASP characters for the sake of a side-by-side spread doesn't actually scream inclusive, it says "One of these things is not like the others." True diversity is extending the same blank canvas for personality, quirks, flaws and merits.

There is a momentum in TV, films and even comics for this sort of diversity to gradually and organically develop...if the show or series lasts long enough for those layers to develop...but the approach is usually to start off with the recognizable broad strokes. Let's look at LOST's original cast. If that show had not earned its longevity, and you were to ask someone to list and describe the cast, you'd get something like: The doctor main leader guy, the hot-head with the heart of gold, the selfish high-maintenance princess, Richie Rich, the tomboy main love interest, the fat guy, the druggie musician, the pregnant girl, Asian #1, Asian #2, the black guy, the black guy's son, the wise and zen old guy, the Muslim, and the dog. Only later, as time allowed would all of these characters become fleshed out past those broad strokes. But interesting to note is that while the writers were very aware and intentional with playing and breaking stereotypes (of ALL the characters), the initial starting point still relied on on playing off the viewers' learned experiences and expectations. There's something to be said about even the omission of the adjective "white" not even being needed at all in the short descriptions aforementioned for the listener to instantly know who is being talked about.

It's no accident that most of the LOST-clones errr "ensemble shows" had promo art and videos highlighting the very same attention to that formula. Flash Forward actually didn't follow that formula and despite its short life was able to accomplish true diversity without relying on viewer familiarity (outside of actor familiarity) FIRST. If the same question were asked to list and quickly describe the main cast of Flash Forward you'd get: Main FBI guy, Harold, the doctor, Charlie from LOST, FBI director, FBI guy's daughter, the overachiever, the lawyer, the other man, suicidal doctor, the repentent babysitter, ex-military AA sponsor. Without having to rely on any broad stroke adjectives, someone would be able to identify every single person that way first, instead because the writers intentionally avoided drawing attention to generalizations. (I understand that Harold and Charlie are instantly recognizable that way, as opposed to their on-show roles, but if you insert/replace Harold and Charlie with "Asian" and "druggie musician" that doesn't at all identify with their on-show significance.)

The spirit of this thread's intent, I believe, is to ask for a similar approach, instead of paint-by-numbers. It's not asking to meet some quota for face-time, whether by addition nor replacement. It's asking that if you're going to go through the effort of addition and replacement, then prove that these characters deserve their existence - and that extends to every character.

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

That's not diversity; that's tokenism. Semantics, I know...but inclusion of non-WASP characters for the sake of a side-by-side spread doesn't actually scream inclusive, it says "One of these things is not like the others." True diversity is extending the same blank canvas for personality, quirks, flaws and merits.

There is a momentum in TV, films and even comics for this sort of diversity to gradually and organically develop...if the show or series lasts long enough for those layers to develop...but the approach is usually to start off with the recognizable broad strokes. Let's look at LOST's original cast. If that show had not earned its longevity, and you were to ask someone to list and describe the cast, you'd get something like: The doctor main leader guy, the hot-head with the heart of gold, the selfish high-maintenance princess, Richie Rich, the tomboy main love interest, the fat guy, the druggie musician, the pregnant girl, Asian #1, Asian #2, the black guy, the black guy's son, the wise and zen old guy, the Muslim, and the dog. Only later, as time allowed would all of these characters become fleshed out past those broad strokes. But interesting to note is that while the writers were very aware and intentional with playing and breaking stereotypes (of ALL the characters), the initial starting point still relied on on playing off the viewers' learned experiences and expectations. There's something to be said about even the omission of the adjective "white" not even being needed at all in the short descriptions aforementioned for the listener to instantly know who is being talked about.

It's no accident that most of the LOST-clones errr "ensemble shows" had promo art and videos highlighting the very same attention to that formula. Flash Forward actually didn't follow that formula and despite its short life was able to accomplish true diversity without relying on viewer familiarity (outside of actor familiarity) FIRST. If the same question were asked to list and quickly describe the main cast of Flash Forward you'd get: Main FBI guy, Harold, the doctor, Charlie from LOST, FBI director, FBI guy's daughter, the overachiever, the lawyer, the other man, suicidal doctor, the repentent babysitter, ex-military AA sponsor. Without having to rely on any broad stroke adjectives, someone would be able to identify every single person that way first, instead because the writers intentionally avoided drawing attention to generalizations. (I understand that Harold and Charlie are instantly recognizable that way, as opposed to their on-show roles, but if you insert/replace Harold and Charlie with "Asian" and "druggie musician" that doesn't at all identify with their on-show significance.)

The spirit of this thread's intent, I believe, is to ask for a similar approach, instead of paint-by-numbers. It's not asking to meet some quota for face-time, whether by addition nor replacement. It's asking that if you're going to go through the effort of addition and replacement, then prove that these characters deserve their existence - and that extends to every character.

I think token only aplies when the character has no real personality. It can be someone with fully embraced stereotypical American culture, someone embreacing it or someone from a partialy segregated sub-culture. It's ok as long as they are unique. I think there's a decent deal of that contrast of both culture and personality between Tattooed Man (segregated, choleric) and BL (mainstream, phlegmatic) in FC: Submit.

I don't want to pretend I'm an expert on the subject, but portrayals of Asian men in movies, TV, and comics has been historically pretty awful, with a disproportionate number of characters as martial artists. I hate the Katana character, and it kind of ticks me off that she got an ongoing series. She's a bunch of tired stereotypes rolled into one, and right now she's probably the marquee Asian character in DC Comics, which IMO sucks.

I don't want to say you should never make an Asian character a martial artist, but damn, try making more Asian characters NOT martial artists. I mean, there's only like a billion and a half real life people who fit that description. That would be like if an Asian fictional universe made a majority of their white American characters cowboys.

That might be the problem, lack of expertise. Ask an expert on Japanese pop cult to point to you to characters like Katana (most would be male, though) and research a bit on Asian characters and their skill; not that many are martial artists.

[DochaDocha]

That might be the problem, lack of expertise. Ask an expert on Japanese pop cult to point to you to characters like Katana (most would be male, though) and research a bit on Asian characters and their skill; not that many are martial artists.

I don't know if you're trying to be insulting... by saying I'm not an expert, it means I don't have tons of data at my disposal. I can just repeat anecdotal stuff from guys who are experts and actually did some academic work following media trends, which I assume you're doing, too, when you say I should ask some expert on Japanese pop cult.

Anyway, while we managed to stay on topic, I don't think we're going to have any breakthroughs here.

[asiansupes]

I don't know if you're trying to be insulting... by saying I'm not an expert, it means I don't have tons of data at my disposal. I can just repeat anecdotal stuff from guys who are experts and actually did some academic work following media trends, which I assume you're doing, too, when you say I should ask some expert on Japanese pop cult.

Anyway, while we managed to stay on topic, I don't think we're going to have any breakthroughs here.

I agree. Less Asian characters with martial arts-based abilities. While we're on the subject of overused, less sun-based/fire Asian super-heroes. That would be great. That's what I liked about Ryan Choi as the Atom; he wasn't very stereotypical and hell, girls were attracted to him.

[Tandaemonium]

I think token only aplies when the character has no real personality. It can be someone with fully embraced stereotypical American culture, someone embreacing it or someone from a partialy segregated sub-culture. It's ok as long as they are unique. I think there's a decent deal of that contrast of both culture and personality between Tattooed Man (segregated, choleric) and BL (mainstream, phlegmatic) in FC: Submit.

I'm with you on Tattooed Man and I'd be with you on BL too except BL has had far more extensive exposure outside of that one-shot which has unfortunately cumulatively amounted to "black dude with lightning powers."