Wonder Woman #17 (Actual Issue, Not Just Preview) SPOILERS

[Rob_Olivera]

Indeed - my apologies, I didn't think you misrepresented me or made it seem I was doing something I wasn't - that's what I was trying, and apparently failing to convey! ;) But much like you clarifying your position in response to the wider attitudes on the thread, I thought since my opinion on the fact had been raised, it might be a good time to clarify it.




Again, agreed - I understood what you were saying and was agreeing with it. Not that there are not instances when women's opinions are outright dismissed under this same auspice, but I don't think that's what's happening here. *fistbump*



Hmm, that's interesting. I don't think that this is an intentional examination of the fact that women are often forced into situations where they have to choose whether or not to respond to these sorts of things happening to them. I mean, that would be interesting, but the reason I don't think it works here is that it's Wonder Woman. I honestly don't think it makes sense to use her to passively highlight these sorts of trials because - even if we are imperfectly able to replicate it - the point of her character is that she exists outside this social co-option. What's refreshing and illuminating about her is her ability to make these choices for legitimate, rational reasons. I don't think, "now is not the most effective time to challenge the patriarchy," would ever cross her mind; she's a living revolution - her existence challenges it constantly. "Zola is more important than this jerk," though, most definitely is. But then the emotional drive of the decision is not reflective of the awful choices women are made to make in regards to situations like this, but rather reflective of how Diana is, by far, the bigger person - it's about her freedom, not her, um, enslavement? I

And I think that, perhaps, Azzarello skipped over the beat in the middle. Like, he doesn't shy away from gender stuff in this comic (with mixed results), but for that reason he has (a) Orion showing he's a jerk through a very gendered action and then (b) showing Diana's a bigger, more caring person than he is because she cares more about comforting Zola than punching him in the teeth, without really ever getting to (c) the practical concern of having one more story of a woman letting an ass-slap slide - perhaps especially if the message is, "be the bigger person, don't rise to the bait," since that's one of the controlling narratives that comes our way.

Which, um, now I'm sort of arguing against the scene I was originally defending (or sort of defending) because my opinions are complex. But you know, I'm just...trying to clarify what I meant.

Namely, I'm less concerned about this story in isolation (particularly as I feel it's unfinished), than I am in the context of...the rest of everything in the world. And how much the story is responsible for taking the rest of everything in the world into consideration, or even looking at the ways it may have been subliminally influenced by that everything is not a question I suspect any of us will completely agree on. Certainly Azzarello himself feels, to me, like the sort of dude who is bloody mindedly independent when it comes to his narratives. Often, I imagine, that's a strength.

I do agree with you, though, that there's been some...I won't say overreaction but harsh reaction. This is a polarising run (which is fair enough) and I think some people have grabbed onto this scene as a cathartic symbol of the aspects of the series they don't like.

I'm going to wait to see where the storyline goes before I decide whether the story beat was crass and uncomfortable, or simply slightly misjudged and part of a decent tale overall.

On a slightly related subject -

If I never see another joke about Superman beating up Orion out of some misplaced sense of ownership of Diana's ass, it'll be too soon.

If that really IS why Superman's beating up Orion, I'm going to...well, who are we kidding I'm not a very violent person and I'm terminally lazy, but man, there'll be some caustic commentary in my house. :/

HOPEFULLY those who have suggested that the Superman cover may refer to a "misplaced sense of ownership of Diana's ass" are joking. HOPEFULLY, because around here one never knows! It's got to be some sort of cross-over story aspect. I think it would be unmeasurably childish if it was due to Diana. Not a chance.

[dupersuper]

If a strange man slapped my friend's ass in my presence I would step forward for her too even as she stood up for herself. Zola is supposedly Diana's friend too. Did she not see the slap?

I know, it's like she's distracted by something... *eye roll*

[toastedbread]

HOPEFULLY those who have suggested that the Superman cover may refer to a "misplaced sense of ownership of Diana's ass" are joking. HOPEFULLY, because around here one never knows! It's got to be some sort of cross-over story aspect. I think it would be unmeasurably childish if it was due to Diana. Not a chance.

Sure, that's why I said "if I never see another joke".

It's about as funny and clever as "make me a sandwich" jokes. But I'm well aware the people making them think they're jokes.

But yes, I agree, at least overtly, I doubt the actual plot will be about fighting over Diana. Subtextually, I guess we'll see.

[dupersuper]

If that's the plan, this really won't be much different from Cosmic Odyssey Orion after all. (In that story Orion was painted throughout as an obnoxious ass who richly deserved being punched out by Batman(!) by the end of the book).

He also got punched by Superman earlier in the story. He managed to thoroughly piss off both of DC's big guys in the same story (though he only would've felt Supermans punch).

Perhaps, Cassandra is a revised Veronica Cale. What was Veronica Cale's middle name?

Veronica Elizabeth Hurley Cale?

Whatever the explanation it doesn't erase the problem of Orion acting out of character.

...because that's not a problem as we've seen very little of nu52 Orions character...?

Strife is the best troll of all time.

Be careful: this is the internet. I'm sure there are some here who'd take this as a challenge.

[hellacre]

I know, it's like she's distracted by something... *eye roll*

Yes, conveniently distracted. The writer makes that call and some people find it as if shoe horned in for shock value/amusement, nothing more. You can roll your eyes how much you want. My hope is that even if she's distracted now, she deals with it later. Maybe Azz wants to write that her being a woman shouldn't really define how she is written as a hero. Maybe an assslap is nothing to get worked up about when the fate of the world is at stake but WW being a woman is and has always been an important aspect of this title and an ass slap matters to many women. Seeing he dropped other stuff in regarding the role of the other women like the murdering amazons who gets rid of boy babies in this and takes his holy time to deal with it, maybe I am a little cynical that teased Orion/WW face off has anything to do with this.

I hope as well SM would not be dealing with what Diana did not get a chance to deal with. If Orion makes an an inappropriate crack about her in front of him, fine but Diana hopefully will put him (Orion) in his place already.

[berk]

...because that's not a problem as we've seen very little of nu52 Orions character...?

I don't see the relevance. It's still a problem since, whatever the nu52 Orion turns out to be, it's already apparent that it isn't going to have much to do with the actual character conceived and written by Kirby, which is the one I'm interested in. If you're going to arbitrarily give him a new personality, unrelated to the original, every time there's a re-boot or a new writer comes along, why call him Orion at all?

But I've already answered my own question: laziness, desire to cater to fan-worship of more popular characters, ignorance or and/or indifference to story-concepts other than the usual company brands and fan-favourites, etc