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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfredIslas View Post
    I want to see this big lesbian marriage. They can make this even bigger than the Northstar marriage!!! Get. That. PR.
    Personally, really sounds great, as both Kate and Maggie are kick-butt ladies, but still WAYYY too early, rushed, in the title, franchise. Besides, I don't think good, long-lasting marriages happens in only fifteen months publication time, probably only a few weeks DC time, from only 3 or so dates, between issues 2 to 17.

  2. #17

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    Haven't read the issue yet, but I agree that the proposal is a bit too soon on Kate's part. Then again, after everything that's happened to her since "Elegy" she's probably looking to add some happiness to her life. It wouldn't surprise me if Maggie turned her down though, partly because it might be too soon to rush into marriage but also because she'd be pissed about Kate keeping her life as Batwoman a secret.
    On second thought, let us not go to Camelot. It is a silly place.

  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by scouter227 View Post
    The average age of comic book readers is 30. I'm pretty sure that a thirty year old is quite capable of reading a fictional story written by someone with an opposing political viewpoint.
    They absolutely aren't, though. Well, actually conservative readers seem to be able to handle liberal writers putting liberal notions in their comics. At most they grumble and bear it. But when a conservative writer is even hired to write a comic (in which it's doubtful there will be any political content whatsoever) liberal readers go nuts and start in with the calls for boycotts. The very idea of an opposing viewpoint being out there somewhere in the ether drives many of them NUTS.

    Full disclosure: I lean left and support gay marriage (though ideally I don't think government should have anything to do with anyone's marriage; let it be up to the people themselves to decide what word they use to call their relationships), but even I can see this state of affairs. It's just the reality of how these different groups are behaving. Almost every month some mainstream comic will portray a villainous hate group full of Christian white heterosexual males. No one bats an eye. But once a year when a conservative writer is hired for anything? "OMG it's the end of civilization unless we get that guy fired! Why, if that guy is allowed to get work anywhere it's like civil rights are being set back 200 years!"

    This Batwoman spoiler? The first thing I thought was that, given how fast things have happened and how their relationship has played out, this is a really BAD and nonsensical idea for Kate to propose to Maggie. In other words, it smacks of bad writing and shock value. It's totally ridiculous for people to cheer something so contrived as a "victory" for the portrayal of gay characters in comics. It reminds me of how six months ago people were bending over backwards to champion Northstar's marriage... yet they couldn't even get Northstar's boyfriend's name right in their columns and podcasts. Which is understandable since the character had like three lines of dialogue and no personality up to that point. Likewise, the whole thing here just seems... phony. It doesn't make any sense for a hero (or heroine) to do this. To reveal their identity while simultaneously proposing? Ridiculous. Just when I thought these writers were finally getting a good handle on portraying her as a sensible character...
    Last edited by DarkBeast; 02-20-2013 at 09:31 PM.

  4. #19
    Junior Member toddx77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkBeast View Post
    They absolutely aren't, though. Well, actually conservative readers seem to be able to handle liberal writers putting liberal notions in their comics. At most they grumble and bear it. But when a conservative writer is even hired to write a comic (in which it's doubtful there will be any political content whatsoever) liberal readers go nuts and start in with the calls for boycotts. The very idea of an opposing viewpoint being out there somewhere in the ether drives many of them NUTS.

    Full disclosure: I lean left and support gay marriage (though ideally I don't think government should have anything to do with anyone's marriage; let it be up to the people themselves to decide what word they use to call their relationships), but even I can see this state of affairs. It's just the reality of how these different groups are behaving. Almost every month some mainstream comic will portray a villainous hate group full of Christian white heterosexual males. No one bats an eye. But once a year when a conservative writer is hired for anything? "OMG it's the end of civilization unless we get that guy fired! Why, if that guy is allowed to get work anywhere it's like civil rights are being set back 200 years!"

    This Batwoman spoiler? The first thing I thought was that, given how fast things have happened and how their relationship has played out, this is a really BAD and nonsensical idea for Kate to propose to Maggie. In other words, it smacks of bad writing and shock value. It's totally ridiculous for people to cheer something so contrived as a "victory" for the portrayal of gay characters in comics. It reminds me of how six months ago people were bending over backwards to champion Northstar's marriage... yet they couldn't even get Northstar's boyfriend's name right in their columns and podcasts. Which is understandable since the character had like three lines of dialogue and no personality up to that point. Likewise, the whole thing here just seems... phony. It doesn't make any sense for a hero (or heroine) to do this. To reveal their identity while simultaneously proposing? Ridiculous. Just when I thought these writers were finally getting a good handle on portraying her as a sensible character...

    You are spot on with both your points. I hate politics now and don't get involved, but years ago I used to be a Republican and had no problem with any liberal writers or their ideas in their work because I just wanted to read comics. Chuck Austin had said Republicans hate women but back in the day it didn't stop me from buying his Uncanny X-Men and Action Comics. As for the point about Northstars marriage I was against that simply because of how Marvel handled it. They make Peter and MJ sell their Marriage to Mephistso and Marvel said comic book characters should not be married because it makes them too old but then as soon as Obama backed gay marriage Marvel announced Northstar was getting married and made a big deal about it saying it was the right thing to do.

  5. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkBeast View Post
    Well, actually conservative readers seem to be able to handle liberal writers putting liberal notions in their comics.
    That's not entirely true. Remember when conservatives raged when Heimdall casting was announced, or Nightrunner issue came out of the print?

    Full disclosure: I lean left and support gay marriage (though ideally I don't think government should have anything to do with anyone's marriage; let it be up to the people themselves to decide what word they use to call their relationships), but even I can see this state of affairs. It's just the reality of how these different groups are behaving. Almost every month some mainstream comic will portray a villainous hate group full of Christian white heterosexual males. No one bats an eye. But once a year when a conservative writer is hired for anything? "OMG it's the end of civilization unless we get that guy fired! Why, if that guy is allowed to get work anywhere it's like civil rights are being set back 200 years!"
    Ultra conservative writer. He advocates that homosexuals are just victims of rape/molestation/abuse, and they just want to get out of LGBT community and be normal.
    Someone with that kind of "normal" and "right" beliefs writing Superman? It just doesn't sound great.

    This Batwoman spoiler? The first thing I thought was that, given how fast things have happened and how their relationship has played out, this is a really BAD and nonsensical idea for Kate to propose to Maggie. In other words, it smacks of bad writing and shock value. It's totally ridiculous for people to cheer something so contrived as a "victory" for the portrayal of gay characters in comics. It reminds me of how six months ago people were bending over backwards to champion Northstar's marriage... yet they couldn't even get Northstar's boyfriend's name right in their columns and podcasts. Which is understandable since the character had like three lines of dialogue and no personality up to that point. Likewise, the whole thing here just seems... phony. It doesn't make any sense for a hero (or heroine) to do this. To reveal their identity while simultaneously proposing? Ridiculous. Just when I thought these writers were finally getting a good handle on portraying her as a sensible character...
    I totally agree with you here. It's just for the show and marketing.
    In-story: Rash decision, but Kate lately doesn't make some well-thought out ones either. I can try and rationalize it, but this move leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
    I hope Maggie declines the offer.

    This incredible quote by Phil Jimenez sums up my feelings about all this:

    "Recently in Marvel, DC and Archie, three very prominent gay characters were quickly introduced and placed in loving monogamous marriages. Even [the Authority's] Apollo and Midnight were very quickly married off. It neuters them in a very interesting way because you never have a playboy gay character -- like a prominent A-list hero -- that isn't so quick to get married and to settle down. I'm fascinated by marriage as a concept, generally, historically, cross-culturally, what it means for men and women as political and social statement. So when we use fictional characters to talk about marriage, particularly gay ones who I think have a different history and a different sexual lineage, it makes me wonder if by marrying them not only do we fulfill fantasies for many of us who cannot [legally] be married...but conversely, it also basically says, whew! Now we don't have to deal with them dating, going through love affairs -- larger questions about sex and that sort of icky stuff because they're safe and they're married and we don't immediately want to damage their relationships by calling them promiscuous whores. The recent gay marriages and relationships introduced in comics intrigue me. Is marriage what all gay people aspire to?. I don't mean to come off as anti-marriage, that's not it."

  6. #21
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    I hope they don't get engaged quiet yet, but I'm not ready for the Kate/Maggie relationship to be over yet. I like Maggie being a regular part of this title, and I want the relationship to still exist while Kate and Jacob reconcile, or whatever that involves working out being on speaking terms again. From what I know of Maggie she doesn't seem like the kind of person who would accept a proposal while learning that her proposing girlfriend has been hiding a double life. Also I don't want Kate to be married if/when Renee comes back.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Lucky One View Post
    Man, that thread title is a c-tease for anyone waiting patiently for Stephanie Brown's return...

    -D
    Sorry but what has this to do with anything?

  8. #23
    I'm a male DebkoX's Avatar
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    About time :)
    “The only thing standing between you and your goal is the bullshit story you keep telling yourself as to why you can't achieve it.”

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngroove View Post
    still WAYYY too early
    This was my thought. They've gone on, what, 5 or 6 dates, then Kate split with Diana for a few days. Kate works fast...

    Maybe they'll get married and the book will get a bit Odd Couply/Dharma&Greg-y...

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkBeast View Post
    They absolutely aren't, though. Well, actually conservative readers seem to be able to handle liberal writers putting liberal notions in their comics. At most they grumble and bear it. But when a conservative writer is even hired to write a comic (in which it's doubtful there will be any political content whatsoever) liberal readers go nuts and start in with the calls for boycotts. The very idea of an opposing viewpoint being out there somewhere in the ether drives many of them NUTS.
    I'll happily read Dixon, Willingham, etc...while they may have views I don't agree with, they - unlike OSC - don't financially support hate groups. I have trouble giving $ to some one who uses it like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Filip View Post
    Ultra conservative writer. He advocates that homosexuals are just victims of rape/molestation/abuse, and they just want to get out of LGBT community and be normal.
    Someone with that kind of "normal" and "right" beliefs writing Superman?
    Maybe Supermans far more tolerant attitude will rub off on him...

    Pull List; seems to be too long to fit in my sig...

  10. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgenstern View Post
    Sorry but what has this to do with anything?
    Because when the topic was made it said "Batwoman" Story Arc Ends With *Spoiler* , so someone glancing at it could think that Spoiler (Stephanie Brown) was in the issue

  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by ngroove View Post
    Personally, really sounds great, as both Kate and Maggie are kick-butt ladies, but still WAYYY too early, rushed, in the title, franchise. Besides, I don't think good, long-lasting marriages happens in only fifteen months publication time, probably only a few weeks DC time, from only 3 or so dates, between issues 2 to 17.
    Within the series they have been dating for six months to a year. I don't think Maggie will accept anyways.

  12. #27
    The Older Waiter Brave Sir Robbin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkBeast View Post
    They absolutely aren't, though. Well, actually conservative readers seem to be able to handle liberal writers putting liberal notions in their comics. At most they grumble and bear it. But when a conservative writer is even hired to write a comic (in which it's doubtful there will be any political content whatsoever) liberal readers go nuts and start in with the calls for boycotts. The very idea of an opposing viewpoint being out there somewhere in the ether drives many of them NUTS.
    Thanks for the nonsensical generalizations backed up with nothing more than your opinions. I suppose you have some sort of anecdotal collection of experiences in your mind that you have selectively put together to support your view point in your mind. I just want to point out that your argument here is based on NOTHING more than your disgruntled feeling toward some things you have read and not the common reality.

    As a liberal person who supports the boycott of Orson Scott Card because he is a hate mongering, second rate hack, I would like to think that I am not nuts but have logical reasons for doing what I do.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkBeast View Post
    Full disclosure: I lean left and support gay marriage (though ideally I don't think government should have anything to do with anyone's marriage; let it be up to the people themselves to decide what word they use to call their relationships), but even I can see this state of affairs. It's just the reality of how these different groups are behaving. Almost every month some mainstream comic will portray a villainous hate group full of Christian white heterosexual males. No one bats an eye. But once a year when a conservative writer is hired for anything? "OMG it's the end of civilization unless we get that guy fired! Why, if that guy is allowed to get work anywhere it's like civil rights are being set back 200 years!"
    I chose to block of this quote to emphasize this is more unsubstantiated opinion and I do believe it comes from an underlying anger. To whit, you emphasize liberals portraying Christian white heterosexual males as the back bone of every villainous hate group and that we ( I include myself as both a liberal that takes an active opposition to those that want to deny human rights such as marriage and a white heterosexual male) And almost every month there is a liberal doing some mean thing characterizing the opposition and golly, it is just so nasty.

    Honestly, do you read other internet message boards? Do you see the dialogue out there? So you read mainstream media opinion pieces. There is a huge battle being waged by both sides and opinions on both run the gamut in terms of tone and civility. To characterize one group as behaving a certain way is comically biased.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkBeast View Post
    This Batwoman spoiler? The first thing I thought was that, given how fast things have happened and how their relationship has played out, this is a really BAD and nonsensical idea for Kate to propose to Maggie. In other words, it smacks of bad writing and shock value. It's totally ridiculous for people to cheer something so contrived as a "victory" for the portrayal of gay characters in comics. It reminds me of how six months ago people were bending over backwards to champion Northstar's marriage... yet they couldn't even get Northstar's boyfriend's name right in their columns and podcasts. Which is understandable since the character had like three lines of dialogue and no personality up to that point. Likewise, the whole thing here just seems... phony. It doesn't make any sense for a hero (or heroine) to do this. To reveal their identity while simultaneously proposing? Ridiculous. Just when I thought these writers were finally getting a good handle on portraying her as a sensible character...
    I am shocked that this behavior is somehow non logical and, in your opinion, outside the realm of human experience. Nothing you have said so far is further than the truth than your paragraph above. Humans react to all kinds of strain, danger, stress, love, affection and desire to be needed and a part of something differently but typically strongly.
    1. People get married after having known each other for weeks up to years. It is best to wait on it but to say it is not real is incorrect.
    2. At times of danger and peril, people bond together for emotional support and to know they are not alone. These two women have been through a very difficult, dangerous, stressful, and emotionally draining period. Kate's feelings for Maggie could very easily been galvanized in this time. She already has strong feelings for her, she has had to secretly undermine her, a person she cares for deeply, she probably feels guilt for that and desire that Maggie's world is safe and strong, Kate also has seen Maggie as a hero and caring human and would undoubtedly be deeply attracted to that, and Kate has been living a lie to her love interest and desperately wants to be honest with her. This proposal, while sudden, is the type of things people do in profoundly changing circumstances that affect someone. Kate has been through the wringer and now desperately wants to feel whole, secure and loved. She is has seen Maggie at her best and already is deeply attracted to her. They are in this odd place of having shared something but Maggie doesn't know it. Kate, in one fell swoop, identifies herself to Maggie, lets Maggie know the depth of her love, and tries to secure the future she needs as part of a loving relationship in an amazingly romantic moment. It makes perfect sense.
    3. What I wrote above, if anything, is not the norm because people are usually not that committed and strong in their feelings. The divorce rate is always near 50%. People marry for all kinds of stupid reasons. Trust me. I have spent part of my legal career handling divorces and my wife has handled lots of therapy for people in bad relationships and divorced. People do amazingly dumb things. It would be hard for the writer to make a reason for marriage that is not a common stupid reason.

    Beyond that, the writing was a triumph in the comic book world for a romantic loving moment that was very human. I loved it. Will Maggie say yes? That is a whole different matter. Kate has some explaining to do. Serious explaining. She has lied to Maggie by omission by not saying she was batgirl. She has worked against her in a violent altercation as part of the DEO, and she has taken advantage of their relationship to get information for the DEO. Those are some serious freaking things. I would be surprised if this marriage proposal is accepted.
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