Action Comics 17 Preview / Discussion (Spoilers)

[Auguste Dupin]

Marvel bad, DC good!

So.....how does the fact the bad guy has a face that looks like the combination of two DC characters makes it a comment on Marvel?

[Ntikrst]

So.....how does the fact the bad guy has a face that looks like the combination of two DC characters makes it a comment on Marvel?

Read SuperDoom's dialogue.

He's the unstoppable killer franchise from a parallel reality, the thought of a better, bigger Superman. He's more ruthless, powered by a simple corporate directive: annihilate the competition. SuperDOOM is the "Marvelized" Modern Age Superman. Morrison likes to pretend that adults came along and stole his childhood super heroes when they killed the Silver Age, so any other version of Superman is invalid because Silver Age comic books were for kids.

What he forgets is that comic books were originally for adolescents until the CCA neutered them into the Silver Age. The other big point he fails to realize is that DC wasn't pandering to adults with the Watchmen, DKR, COIE and Man of Steel and the shift in tone during the 80's. DC was pandering to the adolescents who comprised Marvel's fan base that wouldn't touch the Silver Age because it was so puerile.

Morrison's Superman is an asexual child who rages against his impending adolescence made manifest in SuperDOOM because he's got Peter Pan Syndrome.

[Auguste Dupin]

Read SuperDoom's dialogue.

He's the unstoppable killer franchise from a parallel reality, the thought of a better, bigger Superman. He's more ruthless, powered by a simple corporate directive: annihilate the competition. SuperDOOM is the "Marvelized" Modern Age Superman. Morrison likes to pretend that adults came along and stole his childhood super heroes when they killed the Silver Age, so any other version of Superman is invalid because Silver Age comic books were for kids.

What he forgets is that comic books were originally for adolescents until the CCA neutered them into the Silver Age. The other big point he fails to realize is that DC wasn't pandering to adults with the Watchmen, DKR, COIE and Man of Steel and the shift in tone during the 80's. DC was pandering to the adolescents who comprised Marvel's fan base that wouldn't touch the Silver Age because it was so puerile.

Morrison's Superman is an asexual child who rages against his impending adolescence made manifest in SuperDOOM because he's got Peter Pan Syndrome.

So.....What you are telling me is that you took a comment that has nothing to do with what you are saying (since it was a comment on how Superdoom's face look like 2 DC characters), only so you can develop your own little theory that Morrison hates Marvel. Because that is what you are doing, you realize that, right?

[RoughNTumble]

I KNEW there was something up with glenmorgan's tie

I was starting to think that wouldn't be explained

[KRAKABOOM!]

Morrison likes to pretend that adults came along and stole his childhood super heroes when they killed the Silver Age, so any other version of Superman is invalid because Silver Age comic books were for kids.

What he forgets is that comic books were originally for adolescents until the CCA neutered them into the Silver Age. The other big point he fails to realize is that DC wasn't pandering to adults with the Watchmen, DKR, COIE and Man of Steel and the shift in tone during the 80's. DC was pandering to the adolescents who comprised Marvel's fan base that wouldn't touch the Silver Age because it was so puerile.

People often make a complaint about the way some of the DC stories and your work in particular has developed the past few years which always boils down to this vague complaint about things getting "more Silver Age." Do you have a sense for where that comes from?

I think these things are natural for a fantasy character. I've always said, it's not that I'm a huge Silver Age fan. People always get that wrong. It's more that in the Silver Age, those stories were more popular and appealed to a wider audience. So I'm always thinking, "Why did they appeal?" Those Silver Age Superman stories were about stuff. They weren't just superheroes wrestling with one another. They were about feelings we can all understand. Superman's guilty, or Lois is in love but Lana's in love too...how do you deal with that? All of those things were very much about something real people could understand. I think that's why comics were so popular.

So it's not a fetish for the Silver Age I have. It's more a fetish for good stories that people in the real world can relate to. I'm trying to tell stories that have an emotional value rather than a punch up or a concordance of heights and weights and power measurements. I've always gone back to those stories for that reasons. But with current comics fandom, "Silver Age" has become an almost meaningless term. It's either a term of abuse or a term of endearment, but it doesn't really attach to much at all.

I think people talk like that because when they see news things, they to react by reaching back to find something it's a bit like so you can fit it into a box in your head. I don't even consider "All-Star Superman" to have much in common with the Silver Age at all. It's a pretty modern Superman story to me. The same goes for this one or my work on Batman where we've used Silver Age characters but we've also used things from the '90s, the '70 and the '80s. My idea is always to bring in everything about the character's history and select the bits that seem most interesting. Part of Superman's attitude is taken not from the '40s or the '50s, but from the '70s comics. If you read the stuff by Leo Dorfman and Frank Robbins and these dudes, Superman was just this swaggering tough. [Laughs] He was constantly punching things and blowing on his knuckles and abusing his foes. I kind of liked that. He's a street Superman. That stuff came from the '70s.

And like I said, when you try to reinvent a character, you take inspiration from every iteration of them including the animated stuff. So I do think the term "Silver Age" is pretty reductive. I understand why people do it and what it means to people, but I don't think it's how I see it at all.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=43599

[Mr. Holmes]

Yeah Morrison has said he read comics in the Bronze Age - Denny O'Neil Batman, Maggin Superman, Claremont X-Men, etc.

[Ntikrst]

People often make a complaint about the way some of the DC stories and your work in particular has developed the past few years which always boils down to this vague complaint about things getting "more Silver Age." Do you have a sense for where that comes from?

I think these things are natural for a fantasy character. I've always said, it's not that I'm a huge Silver Age fan. People always get that wrong. It's more that in the Silver Age, those stories were more popular and appealed to a wider audience. So I'm always thinking, "Why did they appeal?"

Because there was no Marvel Comics yet to challenge DC’s Super hero monopoly at the time.

Those Silver Age Superman stories were about stuff. They weren't just superheroes wrestling with one another. They were about feelings we can all understand. Superman's guilty, or Lois is in love but Lana's in love too...how do you deal with that? All of those things were very much about something real people could understand. I think that's why comics were so popular.

Then why didn’t Marvel shift their tone to appeal to DC’s market share? Because it was smaller, hence it was empirically less appealing to Adolescents and the Tweens who wanted to read the cool stuff their older brothers collect. Was Morrison actually collecting DC comics in 1986?

So it's not a fetish for the Silver Age I have. It's more a fetish for good stories that people in the real world can relate to. I'm trying to tell stories that have an emotional value rather than a punch up or a concordance of heights and weights and power measurements.

That’s why adolescents find his Superman comics trite. I mean if there's something kids like to do, it's read excessive dialogue, amirite...?

Does Morrison think power fantasy is a dirty word?

I've always gone back to those stories for that reasons. But with current comics fandom, "Silver Age" has become an almost meaningless term. It's either a term of abuse or a term of endearment, but it doesn't really attach to much at all.

Sure it does, it’s the time after the CCA abolished the dark and edgy comic genre because parent groups don’t want impressionable children being affected by adolescent topics. Without the CCA, DC would have been run out of business by Horror/War/Monster/Crime comics.

Again, contrary to what the guy with the conflict of interests would have us believe, it’s an adolescent market. Not children, not hipsters but teenagers.

I think people talk like that because when they see news things, they to react by reaching back to find something it's a bit like so you can fit it into a box in your head. I don't even consider "All-Star Superman" to have much in common with the Silver Age at all. It's a pretty modern Superman story to me.

This is so blatantly disingenuous its insulting to my intelligence. Clown Kent, Steve Lombard, Fortress and Superman bots, endless super-powers and villains too stupid to ever possibly get the upper hand? Do I honestly need to list all the Silver Age references? Let me know because I can and I will.

The same goes for this one or my work on Batman where we've used Silver Age characters but we've also used things from the '90s, the '70 and the '80s. My idea is always to bring in everything about the character's history and select the bits that seem most interesting. Part of Superman's attitude is taken not from the '40s or the '50s, but from the '70s comics. If you read the stuff by Leo Dorfman and Frank Robbins and these dudes, Superman was just this swaggering tough. [Laughs] He was constantly punching things and blowing on his knuckles and abusing his foes. I kind of liked that. He's a street Superman. That stuff came from the '70s.

If Morrison likes him so much, why not try writing him once in a while. All-Star Superman throws 5(+2 off panel) punches in 12 issues over 3 years. Superman Returns had more engaging action sequences. How can ASS be great for the same reason that SR was boring?

And like I said, when you try to reinvent a character, you take inspiration from every iteration of them including the animated stuff. So I do think the term "Silver Age" is pretty reductive. I understand why people do it and what it means to people, but I don't think it's how I see it at all.

Of course not, he is trying to obscure how shallow and banal his Superman work is because it's easier to play it safe by farming the IP than it is to come up with something new. What's Morrison supposed to do, admit that he's farming the Silver Age IP because he's otherwise lost for ideas? Or that he's a company man who farms the IP at the behest of his editors? Which would be less disappointing to hear for his fans?

Speaking of fans, you guys sure put a lot of faith in a softball interview...

[The Batman]

So.....What you are telling me is that you took a comment that has nothing to do with what you are saying (since it was a comment on how Superdoom's face look like 2 DC characters), only so you can develop your own little theory that Morrison hates Marvel. Because that is what you are doing, you realize that, right?

Oh, the guy with the axe to grind about Grant Morrison is grinding his axe about Grant Morrison. Why are you surprised?

[Desaad]

I'll have to re-read it, as I was so excited I was reading it in the hospital today, but I thought this was a weaker-than-usual issue. Still great, but not as great as the previous few have been. Perhaps we're just at the point now where all the concepts and ideas have been introduced and so some of the 'punch' of that is gone; I sort of didn't need to see the specifics of how everything played out (but then I'm one of those guys who is fine filling in the blanks himself on a lot of things).

Still easily in the top 3 things I read today though! (along with Legion of Superheroes and Wonder Woman).

[Cypher-Z]

Is it me or is anyone kind of bored of this?

Seems to be the same repetitive 'so confusing' formula but with not much happening.

[Superlad93]

Is it me or is anyone kind of bored of this?

Seems to be the same repetitive 'so confusing' formula but with not much happening.

Nope.

The fact is stuff is happening, has happened, and has always been happening since issue 0. It's like the most elaborate death tarp ever! (from Superman's POV).

It's also cool to note that this whole run has been "about Superman" but NOT from his POV. It's just been a bunch of people (LOS, Mrs. N, Myx, and Vin) all playing at what Superman will be. He's really a very small spec in all this but at the same time this larger than life thing that scares gods and gives heroes hope.

The man is less amazing than his legacy but he tries to live up to it all the time and ends up being just as amazing as they say.


But yeah this issue was juts a set up for the end. A place to really let everything marinate before the end comes.

[Mr. Holmes]

Oh, the guy with the axe to grind about Grant Morrison is grinding his axe about Grant Morrison. Why are you surprised?

Yeah let's not let troll douchery derail this thread.

[Auguste Dupin]

Oh, the guy with the axe to grind about Grant Morrison is grinding his axe about Grant Morrison. Why are you surprised?

What makes you think I am?

[The Batman]

What makes you think I am?

touché....

[Auguste Dupin]

I'll have to re-read it, as I was so excited I was reading it in the hospital today, but I thought this was a weaker-than-usual issue. Still great, but not as great as the previous few have been. Perhaps we're just at the point now where all the concepts and ideas have been introduced and so some of the 'punch' of that is gone; I sort of didn't need to see the specifics of how everything played out (but then I'm one of those guys who is fine filling in the blanks himself on a lot of things).

Still easily in the top 3 things I read today though! (along with Legion of Superheroes and Wonder Woman).

Well, we're clearly are at a point where things are more likely to be resolved than introduced. Still, I felt the way these specifics were resolved was pretty fun, and took me by surprise a bit (I didn't expect Vyndktvx to talk to us). I especially liked the part where we came back to issue 0, because it felt for a few pages that we were not just readers, but more like audiences of a one man show or a magic trick (the guy was a magician after all), or even some kind of partner in crime , and it reflected the most the kind of things a narrator from a 50's horror comic would say. I thought that was pretty clever, especially considering that it's at this moment, where he's trying the most to sound like an omniscient narrator the way these figures were that we realize he's actually not, and he can't back up what he pretends to be. He's actually a subversion of these figures, who were in control of the story from beggining to end, while his story is pretty much escaping him.
Overall, I felt that explanations were needed, especially concerning the Legion stuff.