Just for fun- Superman vs. Dr. Manhattan

[Sharpandpointies]

Glad to assist! :)

[Surtur]

To avoid the circularity of the discussion -

As it has always been played here (including with regards to Dr. Manhattan), if there's nothing someone can do while regenerating/reforming/whatever, that's grounds for incapacitating them. If ALL they can do is 'heal up', then it's no different from me getting sixteen broken ribs and getting shuffled off to the hospital for a lengthly stay - I'm down for the duration.

So that clears that up, so I guess it now depends on if we say Supes could destroy his body. How strong does one have to be to physically destroy someone whose best durability feats are being bullet proof and missile proof(at least I think he was shown to be that durable).

[Sol M]

It's just that their duration is much, much shorter. But if it's over ten seconds or so, and they can't do anything else but reform/regen during that time, it's a loss.

What's a reasonable range of time where we can consider someone to have recovered before being ten counted?

I mean, if it takes 14 seconds to recover instead of 10, I'm sure it's not going to make much of a difference, but what about a whole minute? It's much longer than 10 seconds, yet it's not an unreasonably long time, IMO.

Or is it up to subjective interpretation/case by case basis?

I ask because unlike in real life where 10 seconds is a span of time where you can only do so many things, it's much more subjective in fiction where a whole minute can seem like not much time to a character while even 2 seconds can seem like hours for another.

[Sharpandpointies]

What's a reasonable range of time where we can consider someone to have recovered before being ten counted?

I mean, if it takes 14 seconds to recover instead of 10, I'm sure it's not going to make much of a difference, but what about a whole minute? It's much longer than 10 seconds, yet it's not an unreasonably long time, IMO.

Or is it up to subjective interpretation/case by case basis?

My personal feeling is that it's pretty subjective and vague. It comes down to 'can you put the person down for a reasonable length of time?' rather than 'Ten seconds exactly, if by feats it's only nine, no go!'.

I mean, By The Rules, yeah, someone who takes exactly 12 seconds to reform and start working again, every single time, is screwed. But that's going by the letter of the rule, not the spirit (the spirit being 'if dude always only takes 12 seconds to come back, that's pretty much his 'come-back power', and the other guy probably can't really consider it a win), and if that's the margin of victory, it's probably better to start looking for a new way for the other guy to win or just say 'yeah, probably too close to call'.

But that's my personal opinion. Rumbles Rules go with a 10-Count.

[Powerboy]

Discuss.

IF DM had prep/ precog and could launch a preemptive strike, then it would come down to something like the toughest thing he has ever exploded/ disintegrated vs. Superman's durability. Maybe he could then take out movie Superman.

BUT, moot point. Whether movie or comic, Superman blitzes him into oblivion. He regenerates but not fast enough to beat a ten count.

[Surtur]

then it would come down to something like the toughest thing he has ever exploded/ disintegrated vs. Superman's durability. Maybe he could then take out movie Superman.

If this is the case the guy has zero hope of doing a thing to movie Supes. Since I think he exploded like..Rorshach and tanks and stuff? One of these reason Doc isn't good for rumbles is because there aren't any other superhumans in his world. Sure they have humans who are quite strong compared to the real world..but that is about it.

[Powerboy]

My personal feeling is that it's pretty subjective and vague. It comes down to 'can you put the person down for a reasonable length of time?' rather than 'Ten seconds exactly, if by feats it's only nine, no go!'.

I mean, By The Rules, yeah, someone who takes exactly 12 seconds to reform and start working again, every single time, is screwed. But that's going by the letter of the rule, not the spirit (the spirit being 'if dude always only takes 12 seconds to come back, that's pretty much his 'come-back power', and the other guy probably can't really consider it a win), and if that's the margin of victory, it's probably better to start looking for a new way for the other guy to win or just say 'yeah, probably too close to call'.

But that's my personal opinion. Rumbles Rules go with a 10-Count.

Hmm, by that logic, I'm not sure if ten counting Manhattan is viable because its clear he isn't destroyed for a significant period of time albeit probably more than ten actual seconds. By the letter, he's out. By the spirit, in a "real fight", he just keeps coming back somewhere again and again until he manages an attack. But I reiterate, I'm not sure he has anything that will effect Superman.

[Powerboy]

If this is the case the guy has zero hope of doing a thing to movie Supes. Since I think he exploded like..Rorshach and tanks and stuff?

I was just taking it as a given that his ability to explode things or whatever we call it has the no-limits fallacy applied to it ie. he can't just be assumed to effect things beyond anything he has ever been shown to be able to effect. So I guess it also depends on Superman's displays of resistance to such attacks. If they are considered something equivalent to transmutation, Superman would be in trouble IF Manhattan ever got to do anything.

[Surtur]

I was just taking it as a given that his ability to explode things or whatever we call it has the no-limits fallacy applied to it ie. he can't just be assumed to effect things beyond anything he has ever been shown to be able to effect. So I guess it also depends on Superman's displays of resistance to such attacks. If they are considered something equivalent to transmutation, Superman would be in trouble IF Manhattan ever got to do anything.

I'd honestly thought he..excited the molecules in Rorshach or some nonsense. It's hard to say if it is something where durability would be a factor since with his powers he probably could of achieved the "you explode" effect a variety of different ways. Question though..do we assume Doc could reform an infinite amount of times? Granted he never seems to get tired in the movie, but again the problem is he never had to really cut loose. Can energy beings even feel fatigue?

[Powerboy]

I'd honestly thought he..excited the molecules in Rorshach or some nonsense. It's hard to say if it is something where durability would be a factor since with his powers he probably could of achieved the "you explode" effect a variety of different ways. Question though..do we assume Doc could reform an infinite amount of times?

Hmmmmm. I'd say yes only because, next thing, we'd be counting up how many times Superman has ever used his heat vision in one situation and arguing that whatever the max he used it in one fight is the most he could possibly use it in one fight. Maybe the no-limits thing should apply but I'd want some reason to believe there was a limit on number of uses. But that's just me.

[Surtur]

Hmmmmm. I'd say yes only because, next thing, we'd be counting up how many times Superman has ever used his heat vision in one situation and arguing that whatever the max he used it in one fight is the most he could possibly use it in one fight. Maybe the no-limits thing should apply but I'd want some reason to believe there was a limit on number of uses. But that's just me.

Hmm yeah I'm on the fence on it myself. Even if he could be put to the point where he can't do it I'm not sure Supes could accomplish it within his own lifetime since I don't think movie Supes had the whole "immortal under a yellow star" thing.