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  1. #46
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    I can't understand this.

    No way Perez Cheetah is the same Catwoman wannabe the character had been. And his Dr Psycho , who had been nasty but cartoonish, was just disturbing. I mean in a good way - that little freak creeped me out right from the get go.
    Yeah but Perez was so long ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Prince View Post
    Perez' Cheetah and Dr. Psycho were horrifying-they fit Azz' tone.

    It's a mistake to blame the JL story arch on Cheetah. The first 12-13 issues of that title, up to the Atlantis storyline, felt more like a bad cartoon than an interconnected character drama. It was pretty simplistic, but at least Cheetah was portrayed as powerful and could take on Superman and the entire League. It's also important to note that her motivation wasn't to destroy them, but to get captured and position herself in prison for the Secret Society. At least that's how I interpreted the story's epilogue.

    The Cheetah will RISE! ;)
    I wasnt impressed by Cheetah's ability to fight the league. I was mostly bothered by her cliche origin, paper thin motivation and the ridiculous vampire bite.

  2. #47
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    Only if you just look at the pictures...
    And if you're just looking at the pictures, when I see a where-cheetah fighting soem woman in a bathing suit, I'm betting on the where-cheetah every single time.

    cough*jeph loeb*cough

    The Joker looks like a clown or a playing card, not like a crazy-upredictable guy.
    -Or at the concepts. And I wouldn't bet on the were-cheetah if she was facing a living golem who was granted incredible powers by the Gods (or a female Hercules).

    -Precisely my point. When a hack like Loeb writes Cheetah, she gets one punched by Batman so he can look awesome. When he writes Darkseid, Batman gets a lucky kick so he can look awesome. Even a hack like Loeb knows Batman can't knock Darkseid unconscious.

    -Clowns are a classic figure when it comes to crazy killers. There even exists a phobia of clown (never understood how and why, but still).That, and people who always smile are scary as hell. Even Victor Hugo knew that. Plus, the whole "opposition dark silent scary figure who fights for good/bright talkative funny figure who murders people for kicks" and all that.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  3. #48
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hound of UIster View Post
    Pretty much agreed about her being evil Lara Croft, which is why I say she works in a more down to earth and less mythological setting.
    Ehm... Have you ever played a Tomb Raider game?
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  4. #49
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    -Or at the concepts. And I wouldn't bet on the were-cheetah if she was facing a living golem who was granted incredible powers by the Gods (or a female Hercules).
    See, the concept of the post-Crisis Cheetah is a woman who has been granted incredible abilities by a god.

    -Precisely my point. When a hack like Loeb writes Cheetah, she gets one punched by Batman so he can look awesome. When he writes Darkseid, Batman gets a lucky kick so he can look awesome. Even a hack like Loeb knows Batman can't knock Darkseid unconscious.
    No, I meant Loeb had Batman punch Darkseid. And it hurt.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    paper thin motivation
    Did she have a motivation? I mean, besides the "I want to get put in prison as some sort of evil scheme" bit. What did the heroes think she was up to? It started out with Wonder Woman and Cheetah brawling in Central Park, but is there anything that would contradict the theory Cheetah could have been acting in justifiable self-defence when Johns' Jerk Diana attacked her for the crime of sitting on a bench reading?

  6. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveGus View Post
    Also, Circe and Ares aren't really Wonder Woman villains; they're public domain characters from Greek mythology. Many people know who they are; far fewer of them will associate either with Wonder Woman.
    Does that mean that Marvel's Thor isn't really a superhero and his villains are not really his villains?

  7. #52
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    See, the concept of the post-Crisis Cheetah is a woman who has been granted incredible abilities by a god.

    No, I meant Loeb had Batman punch Darkseid. And it hurt.
    -The incredible abilities of a were cheetah. I mean, I know she is a "super were cheetah", but is there anything in her appearance or her powers that tells you "she is much much worse than just a were cheetah"? No, she looks like Tigra. I'm not even sure Tigra would qualify as a Spider-Man villain.

    -In the Batman/ Superman story? Because in that story, while Batgod does manage to land a good punch, he ends being physically overpowered relatively easily (plus, didn't he have some battle armor at this point?). I do agree that the simple fact he landed a good punch work is ridiculous, but still, there is a world of difference between "Ho, I punched him in the face and he bled a little" and "I punched her and just ended up unconscious".
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  8. #53
    Darkseid's Lawyer MelDyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Well, one could argue that trying to have a villain being Diana's "insert another famous villain" name is doomed to fail by definition.
    When Meldyer talked about how WW's villains were "just like" and named other villains, I couldn't help think "yeah, but why would I want to read about an expy of another villain? Why would I want to read about a villain trying to be like Dr Doom when I could read about.....Dr Doom?"...Honestly, I always wondered when and how Cheetah became her achnemesis over Ares. I mean, there is some potential with him. He's the reason she left Paradise Island in the first place, he's a villain whose sole purpose is to create conflict (while she is more or less meant to resolve them in a pacific way), plus he's a god so he's likely to kick ass. And she wouldn't be "Diana's Luthor/Joker/Dr Doom", but his own thing.
    Cheetah is Wondy's most enduring archnemesis, largely because of the popular Super Friends cartoon of the 1970s, ..and I think she sticks around because of her bizarre costume and schtick. Cheetah's just strange. Strange-looking and sort of vulgar in her blood-thirstiness.

    Ares will never look quite right sitting at a table with Lex Luthor and the Joker in a crossover story and isn't likely to be used in a lot of other comics, ..like Batman, Green Lantern. At the end of the day, what are you really going to do with Ares? Seriously?

    I suppose Ares might become interesting, if a world - a narrative playpen, of sorts - was created around him. We saw the beginnings of that in the Marston days, when he had a court of grotesques - Conquest, Duke of Deception, Greed, etc - gathered around him on the planet Mars. I though that was brilliant, and I'm sorry more wasn't done with that idea! In case some of you don't remember, the original Silver Swan was to be an emissary to Ares, his champion ..and a mortal, superhuman answer to Wonder Woman. I'm really sorry that wasn't continued by George Perez, because it was a segue to fully realizing Marston's vision of Ares, as a dark force presiding over a court of mystically enhanced villains.

    A mystical demonic being, somewhere between Trigon of New Teen Titans and Superman's Darkseid.

    I much prefer Ares as 'the Emperor' to Silver Swan's or Conquest's Darth Vader, than as a generic supervillain. If Wonder Woman takes him on directly, as she occasionally did in the Forties, I suppose that's fine. I suppose I think Ares should be more mysterious than you seem to want to make him.

    I don't think Ares should be hanging out at the watercooler in the Hall of Doom or sitting between Lex Luthor and the Joker at some silly meeting. I also don't think he plays well in other comics, in stories with heroes other than Wonder Woman or magical, myth-oriented characters like her, ..which are few. Can you imagine Ares in a Superman or Batman, and just think of the poor devil, who tries to write that - Ares versus Batgirl? Should he ride an Arecycle, mayhap?

    But, if that's what you want, very well for you.

    Honestly, I just don't think Ares is that interesting, and I'd almost prefer we didn't see him visually represented, at all. He isn't that snappy a dresser, and he usually looks a little like something you'd see on a trip to some dreery museum in Washington. I just don't see him as Wondy's Number One Supervillain, because I think Ares should be beyond that, ..operating on another level. My God doesn't whiz by my condo on his rockert-scooter, so why should Wonder Woman's?

    Wonder Woman needs supervillains and supporting characters - break-out characters, like Darkseid or Catwoman - who play well or fit in stories, outside the Wonder Woman comic. I think her archenemy should be a mortal ..and preferably a woman. I think that character or characters should be memorably bizarre, classic comic book supervillains, with outlandish costumes and all.

    Just my druthers list. [Chew, chew, chew...]

    And I made a comparisons between select Wonder Woman supervillains and villains in other popular comics to make a point. I made the comparisons and invited you all to make those comparisons to illustrate the undeniable - that Wonder Woman has a rogues gallery as good as any other comic's and BETTER than most, ..but fails because there's no editorial push to get them out of the mothballs and into action in the WW comic. The supervillains I compared the WW rogues with have all benefitted from decades upon decades of visibility (movies, TV cartoons, etc) and development that just hasn't happened in the pages of Wonder Woman.

    I made the comparison to raise the question...why not here? Why not in Wonder Woman? I'm tired of hearing comic book creators and fans groan about what a lousy rogues gallery Wondy has, when so many of her fans KNOW that isn't true! Why do we keep repeating that crap, and why do we, too often, let it go unchallenged?

    I want to see somebody fight for this character. It should be the editors, ..but, I'm not sure they care. You see anyone at Superman giving away Lois Lane, or anyone at Batman letting Alfred Pennyworth get killed off in a Green Lantern story? That's happened and continues to happen at Wonder Woman.

    Just remember ..we can't keep bellyaching about supervillains created for Wonder Woman being disrespected in Batman, Justice League and other comics, when it's clear to everyone that the Wonder Woman comic disrespected them first.
    Last edited by MelDyer; 02-17-2013 at 09:13 AM. Reason: clarity, impact
    "I collect beings like him and cut them open--so I can hold in my hand what makes them tick."
    Cassandra on Orion of the New Gods (Wonder Woman #26)

  9. #54
    Veteran Member AdamYJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Well, one could argue that trying to have a villain being Diana's "insert another famous villain" name is doomed to fail by definition.
    When Meldyer talked about how WW's villains were "just like" and named other villains, I couldn't help think "yeah, but why would I want to read about an expy of another villain? Why would I want to read about a villain trying to be like Dr Doom when I could read about.....Dr Doom?".
    Like it or not, but if villains don't have any emotionnal/psychological reason to face that hero in particular, then they're not really part of her Rogue Galler. They're just unlucky enough to always stumble upon her when they commit a crime.
    Besides, yes, Luthor and the Joker didn't start of immediately as who they are now. Still, Alan Moore didn't just wake up one day and say "hey, I'm going to take that lame clown villain Batman has and give him this great story that will turn him into an icon". He wrote that book because he saw potential.
    Honestly, I always wondered when and how Cheetah became her achnemesis over Ares. I mean, there is some potential with him. He's the reason she left Paradise Island in the first place, he's a villain whose sole purpose is to create conflict (while she is more or less meant to resolve them in a pacific way), plus he's a god so he's likely to kick ass. And she wouldn't be "Diana's Luthor/Joker/Dr Doom", but his own thing.
    What I was trying to say was that a villian can be an interesting character in their own right without having to be some sort of reflection on the hero.

    Anyway, it's because Cheetah was a character Wonder Woman could claim as her own rather than Ares (then called "Mars") who belongs to the entire Greco-Roman pantheon. It's also because in her early days, Wonder Woman was just barely connected to Greek (or rather, Roman) mythology. It was her starting point originwise, but the main thrust of her stories in the early days was about fighting against Nazis and upholding the amazing power of womanhood (it was a Marston thing). Cheetah was a costumed character and one that was obviously a woman rather than many of her other early female adversaries who disguised themselves as men. That seemed an appropriatre villian for the world's foremost costumed heroine. Cheetah wasn't even her first archenemy. Early on, her most implacable foe was an uncostumed woman by the name of Baroness Paula von Gunther who worked as a Nazi spy master. However, like I said she was uncostumed and her character type had a shelf life. (One should probably note here that Batman's earliest arch-enemy was actually Prof. Hugo Strange and Superman's was the Ultra-Humanite).

    In the Silver Age, Diana didn't even really have an archenemy, though she did face the mobster version of Angle Man a few times and there were a couple guys like Paper Man and Mouse Man in there. It should also be noted that there was little focus on the mythological gods directly but at the same time the book sort of furtively became a fantasy book because it focused more often than not on the adventures of young Diana as Wonder Girl on Paradise Island and her misadventures alongside Manno the Mer-Boy.

    One of the big problems since Perez is that no one really wants to fully develop the regular old superhero side of the character. They redefine and reredefine her mythological connections (which, as I said, were initially just origin fuel) while making her location, enemies and supporting cast outside of Themyscira interchangable and ultimately forgettable.
    Story By Story- Story Circle of the Capital Region.

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  10. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Honestly, I always wondered when and how Cheetah became her achnemesis over Ares. I mean, there is some potential with him. He's the reason she left Paradise Island in the first place, he's a villain whose sole purpose is to create conflict (while she is more or less meant to resolve them in a pacific way), plus he's a god so he's likely to kick ass. And she wouldn't be "Diana's Luthor/Joker/Dr Doom", but his own thing.
    Superfriends.

    And in a world where men rule and there's very few female villains... I think it's great that Cheetah has stepped up as the iconic arch-enemy of WW (whether or not she's actually her nemesis, or Ares or Circe, is debatable). And it's laughable that people can't look past her cheetah motif but are perfectly willing to accept the Joker or Brainiac or Sinestro or Darkseid. Fans love to jump on the bandwagon though, and I'd bet 90% of the ones mocking Cheetah haven't read the great Perez origin issues of her (or for that matter, much of her at all beyond the Batman one-punch or the horrible Catwoman fights). Freaky. Deaky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    Yeah but Perez was so long ago.
    I wasnt impressed by Cheetah's ability to fight the league. I was mostly bothered by her cliche origin, paper thin motivation and the ridiculous vampire bite.
    As a Cheetah superfan, I agree. The second issue was definitely better than the first, but the whole cheetah bite thing was... ugh. I have no words for it.

    Fortunately, Cheetah's still going to play a role in 2013, so they have a chance to elevate her further into the spotlight, especially in a popular book like Justice League.
    "Kryptonite-laced nail polish. Isn't it too divine? Under all that steel, just a man."
    -- Cheetah, Batman: The Brave and the Bold

  11. #56
    Veteran Member AdamYJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MelDyer View Post
    Cheetah is Wondy's most enduring archnemesis, largely because of the popular Super Friends cartoon of the 1970s,
    It's a funny thing, Luthor only became Superman's archfoe because he appeared in the Atom Man vs Superman movie serials: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yRGJ7OntRM.

    Anyway, I'm not entirely sure comparing Wonder Woman's situation to Superman's or Batman's is quite the way to go, despite how much people want her to be on "that level".

    You see, lots of super-heroes have archenemies or characters that are close to it without so much deep thought being involved. Flash has Gorilla Grodd (or Zoom, or Capt. Cold. It depends). Green Lantern has Sinestro. Hawkman has Shadow Thief. Atom has Chronos. Aquaman has Black Manta. Firestorm has Killer Frost. Green Arrow has Count Vertigo. Nine times out of ten, these characters become a big deal just because they have memorable gimmicks or visuals or they're just the most ambitious.

    Such might be the case with Cheetah.
    Story By Story- Story Circle of the Capital Region.

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  12. #57
    Glitter and Gold AlfredIslas's Avatar
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    Maybe it's good that they don't focus too much on giving Wonder Woman her own Joker or Lex Luthor. Then we might not have to endure 1,000 Joker stories like the Batfans have to deal with.

  13. #58
    Darkseid's Lawyer MelDyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamYJ View Post
    ...Flash has Gorilla Grodd (or Zoom, or Capt. Cold. It depends). Green Lantern has Sinestro. Hawkman has Shadow Thief. Atom has Chronos. Aquaman has Black Manta. Firestorm has Killer Frost. Green Arrow has Count Vertigo. Nine times out of ten, these characters become a big deal just because they have memorable gimmicks or visuals or they're just the most ambitious.

    Such might be the case with Cheetah.
    What he said.
    "I collect beings like him and cut them open--so I can hold in my hand what makes them tick."
    Cassandra on Orion of the New Gods (Wonder Woman #26)

  14. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    Ehm... Have you ever played a Tomb Raider game?
    I have read the comics.

  15. #60

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    I think Wonder Woman has great villains. It's just they haven't received any real exposure to the public like batmans villains have. If they did they'd get the respect they deserve as her villains are awesome .

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