-Precisely my point. When a hack like Loeb writes Cheetah, she gets one punched by Batman so he can look awesome. When he writes Darkseid, Batman gets a lucky kick so he can look awesome. Even a hack like Loeb knows Batman can't knock Darkseid unconscious.
-Clowns are a classic figure when it comes to crazy killers. There even exists a phobia of clown (never understood how and why, but still).That, and people who always smile are scary as hell. Even Victor Hugo knew that. Plus, the whole "opposition dark silent scary figure who fights for good/bright talkative funny figure who murders people for kicks" and all that.
"I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."
No, I meant Loeb had Batman punch Darkseid. And it hurt.-Precisely my point. When a hack like Loeb writes Cheetah, she gets one punched by Batman so he can look awesome. When he writes Darkseid, Batman gets a lucky kick so he can look awesome. Even a hack like Loeb knows Batman can't knock Darkseid unconscious.
'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."
-In the Batman/ Superman story? Because in that story, while Batgod does manage to land a good punch, he ends being physically overpowered relatively easily (plus, didn't he have some battle armor at this point?). I do agree that the simple fact he landed a good punch work is ridiculous, but still, there is a world of difference between "Ho, I punched him in the face and he bled a little" and "I punched her and just ended up unconscious".
"I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."
Ares will never look quite right sitting at a table with Lex Luthor and the Joker in a crossover story and isn't likely to be used in a lot of other comics, ..like Batman, Green Lantern. At the end of the day, what are you really going to do with Ares? Seriously?
I suppose Ares might become interesting, if a world - a narrative playpen, of sorts - was created around him. We saw the beginnings of that in the Marston days, when he had a court of grotesques - Conquest, Duke of Deception, Greed, etc - gathered around him on the planet Mars. I though that was brilliant, and I'm sorry more wasn't done with that idea! In case some of you don't remember, the original Silver Swan was to be an emissary to Ares, his champion ..and a mortal, superhuman answer to Wonder Woman. I'm really sorry that wasn't continued by George Perez, because it was a segue to fully realizing Marston's vision of Ares, as a dark force presiding over a court of mystically enhanced villains.
A mystical demonic being, somewhere between Trigon of New Teen Titans and Superman's Darkseid.
I much prefer Ares as 'the Emperor' to Silver Swan's or Conquest's Darth Vader, than as a generic supervillain. If Wonder Woman takes him on directly, as she occasionally did in the Forties, I suppose that's fine. I suppose I think Ares should be more mysterious than you seem to want to make him.
I don't think Ares should be hanging out at the watercooler in the Hall of Doom or sitting between Lex Luthor and the Joker at some silly meeting. I also don't think he plays well in other comics, in stories with heroes other than Wonder Woman or magical, myth-oriented characters like her, ..which are few. Can you imagine Ares in a Superman or Batman, and just think of the poor devil, who tries to write that - Ares versus Batgirl? Should he ride an Arecycle, mayhap?
But, if that's what you want, very well for you.
Honestly, I just don't think Ares is that interesting, and I'd almost prefer we didn't see him visually represented, at all. He isn't that snappy a dresser, and he usually looks a little like something you'd see on a trip to some dreery museum in Washington. I just don't see him as Wondy's Number One Supervillain, because I think Ares should be beyond that, ..operating on another level. My God doesn't whiz by my condo on his rockert-scooter, so why should Wonder Woman's?
Wonder Woman needs supervillains and supporting characters - break-out characters, like Darkseid or Catwoman - who play well or fit in stories, outside the Wonder Woman comic. I think her archenemy should be a mortal ..and preferably a woman. I think that character or characters should be memorably bizarre, classic comic book supervillains, with outlandish costumes and all.
Just my druthers list. [Chew, chew, chew...]
And I made a comparisons between select Wonder Woman supervillains and villains in other popular comics to make a point. I made the comparisons and invited you all to make those comparisons to illustrate the undeniable - that Wonder Woman has a rogues gallery as good as any other comic's and BETTER than most, ..but fails because there's no editorial push to get them out of the mothballs and into action in the WW comic. The supervillains I compared the WW rogues with have all benefitted from decades upon decades of visibility (movies, TV cartoons, etc) and development that just hasn't happened in the pages of Wonder Woman.
I made the comparison to raise the question...why not here? Why not in Wonder Woman? I'm tired of hearing comic book creators and fans groan about what a lousy rogues gallery Wondy has, when so many of her fans KNOW that isn't true! Why do we keep repeating that crap, and why do we, too often, let it go unchallenged?
I want to see somebody fight for this character. It should be the editors, ..but, I'm not sure they care. You see anyone at Superman giving away Lois Lane, or anyone at Batman letting Alfred Pennyworth get killed off in a Green Lantern story? That's happened and continues to happen at Wonder Woman.
Just remember ..we can't keep bellyaching about supervillains created for Wonder Woman being disrespected in Batman, Justice League and other comics, when it's clear to everyone that the Wonder Woman comic disrespected them first.
Last edited by MelDyer; 02-17-2013 at 09:13 AM. Reason: clarity, impact
"I collect beings like him and cut them open--so I can hold in my hand what makes them tick."
Cassandra on Orion of the New Gods (Wonder Woman #26)
Anyway, it's because Cheetah was a character Wonder Woman could claim as her own rather than Ares (then called "Mars") who belongs to the entire Greco-Roman pantheon. It's also because in her early days, Wonder Woman was just barely connected to Greek (or rather, Roman) mythology. It was her starting point originwise, but the main thrust of her stories in the early days was about fighting against Nazis and upholding the amazing power of womanhood (it was a Marston thing). Cheetah was a costumed character and one that was obviously a woman rather than many of her other early female adversaries who disguised themselves as men. That seemed an appropriatre villian for the world's foremost costumed heroine. Cheetah wasn't even her first archenemy. Early on, her most implacable foe was an uncostumed woman by the name of Baroness Paula von Gunther who worked as a Nazi spy master. However, like I said she was uncostumed and her character type had a shelf life. (One should probably note here that Batman's earliest arch-enemy was actually Prof. Hugo Strange and Superman's was the Ultra-Humanite).
In the Silver Age, Diana didn't even really have an archenemy, though she did face the mobster version of Angle Man a few times and there were a couple guys like Paper Man and Mouse Man in there. It should also be noted that there was little focus on the mythological gods directly but at the same time the book sort of furtively became a fantasy book because it focused more often than not on the adventures of young Diana as Wonder Girl on Paradise Island and her misadventures alongside Manno the Mer-Boy.
One of the big problems since Perez is that no one really wants to fully develop the regular old superhero side of the character. They redefine and reredefine her mythological connections (which, as I said, were initially just origin fuel) while making her location, enemies and supporting cast outside of Themyscira interchangable and ultimately forgettable.
And in a world where men rule and there's very few female villains... I think it's great that Cheetah has stepped up as the iconic arch-enemy of WW (whether or not she's actually her nemesis, or Ares or Circe, is debatable). And it's laughable that people can't look past her cheetah motif but are perfectly willing to accept the Joker or Brainiac or Sinestro or Darkseid. Fans love to jump on the bandwagon though, and I'd bet 90% of the ones mocking Cheetah haven't read the great Perez origin issues of her (or for that matter, much of her at all beyond the Batman one-punch or the horrible Catwoman fights). Freaky. Deaky.
Fortunately, Cheetah's still going to play a role in 2013, so they have a chance to elevate her further into the spotlight, especially in a popular book like Justice League.
"Kryptonite-laced nail polish. Isn't it too divine? Under all that steel, just a man."
-- Cheetah, Batman: The Brave and the Bold
Anyway, I'm not entirely sure comparing Wonder Woman's situation to Superman's or Batman's is quite the way to go, despite how much people want her to be on "that level".
You see, lots of super-heroes have archenemies or characters that are close to it without so much deep thought being involved. Flash has Gorilla Grodd (or Zoom, or Capt. Cold. It depends). Green Lantern has Sinestro. Hawkman has Shadow Thief. Atom has Chronos. Aquaman has Black Manta. Firestorm has Killer Frost. Green Arrow has Count Vertigo. Nine times out of ten, these characters become a big deal just because they have memorable gimmicks or visuals or they're just the most ambitious.
Such might be the case with Cheetah.
Maybe it's good that they don't focus too much on giving Wonder Woman her own Joker or Lex Luthor. Then we might not have to endure 1,000 Joker stories like the Batfans have to deal with.
I think Wonder Woman has great villains. It's just they haven't received any real exposure to the public like batmans villains have. If they did they'd get the respect they deserve as her villains are awesome .