Why is Wonder Woman's Rogue's gallery considered one of the weaker ones?

[brettc1]

WW and her world hadnt evolved in the same way. Azz is masterfully updating the mythological part of the franchise but unfortunately the superheroic one hasnt been worked on yet. Aside from that downright horrible Cheetah JL story that is. Holy crap that was stupid.

I can't understand this.

No way Perez Cheetah is the same Catwoman wannabe the character had been. And his Dr Psycho , who had been nasty but cartoonish, was just disturbing. I mean in a good way - that little freak creeped me out right from the get go.

[Mr Prince]

I don't think the issue of Wonder Woman's villains lies in who they are per se, but rather how they're used (or misused) or the focus (or lack of focus) they get.

Superman suffers the same issues. Past Lex Luthor, and maybe Zod and Brainiac, there's not a ton of his villains in the zeitgeist.

They just haven't gotten the creative attention they deserve. Cheetah, Giganta, Dr. Psycho, Dr. Poison, Circe, Ares, Medusa, Dr. Cyber, Superwoman, the gods and others have alternately bizarre or terrifying at different times when published. They all have potential.

The issue to me is not intrinsically the character concepts themselves, but the thought, creativity and respect applied to them. It takes effort and passion and it's going to change over time. It's the nature of art and storytelling.

There was a time I never thought I'd care about Black Adam, Black Manta, Brainiac or Flash's Rogues, but things change.

[Mr Prince]

Perez' Cheetah and Dr. Psycho were horrifying-they fit Azz' tone.

It's a mistake to blame the JL story arch on Cheetah. The first 12-13 issues of that title, up to the Atlantis storyline, felt more like a bad cartoon than an interconnected character drama. It was pretty simplistic, but at least Cheetah was portrayed as powerful and could take on Superman and the entire League. It's also important to note that her motivation wasn't to destroy them, but to get captured and position herself in prison for the Secret Society. At least that's how I interpreted the story's epilogue.

The Cheetah will RISE! ;)

[Hound of UIster]

Perez' Cheetah and Dr. Psycho were horrifying-they fit Azz' tone.

Maybe if you made Dr. Psycho more mystical in natural.

Cheetah only works the best in a more down to earth and less fantastic or mythological setting.

[carabas]

Cheetah only works the best in a more down to earth and less fantastic or mythological setting.

Umm... You do know that she's basically evil Lara Croft that got transformed into a catperson by a god, and has more than enough speed and raw strength to give Superman a good fight?

[onecimo]

I don't think the issue of Wonder Woman's villains lies in who they are per se, but rather how they're used (or misused) or the focus (or lack of focus) they get.

Superman suffers the same issues. Past Lex Luthor, and maybe Zod and Brainiac, there's not a ton of his villains in the zeitgeist.

They just haven't gotten the creative attention they deserve. Cheetah, Giganta, Dr. Psycho, Dr. Poison, Circe, Ares, Medusa, Dr. Cyber, Superwoman, the gods and others have alternately bizarre or terrifying at different times when published. They all have potential.

The issue to me is not intrinsically the character concepts themselves, but the thought, creativity and respect applied to them. It takes effort and passion and it's going to change over time. It's the nature of art and storytelling.

There was a time I never thought I'd care about Black Adam, Black Manta, Brainiac or Flash's Rogues, but things change.

That is it!!! Really think about all her Rogue's, they are awesome!!!!!! Just think about how they can be used!!!!! :)

[HeroxMatt2.0]

So Geoff Johns needs to write Wonder Woman?

[AdamYJ]

So Geoff Johns needs to write Wonder Woman?

Well, it wouldn't be the first time someone tried to revamp the Wonder Villians. However, there's no guarantee that someone won't come along and undo it right afterward. For example, Phil Jiminez put in some decent work with them years ago. Granted, not everyone liked what he came up with. But he was working with the materials at hand. By that time, I believe Barbara Minerva had practically retired from being the Cheetah and the old Silver Swan had been reformed. So, he created new ones with different twists that not everyone liked. But he also brought back the same old Dr. Psycho, created the fun new "gentleman thief" version of Angle Man and reintroduced Villiany Inc. He didn't exactly give them single-issue spotlights like Geoff Johns, but he had them fit into his bigger overall story.

Then Greg Rucka comes along and it's like "Whoosh!" all of that's gone.

[MelDyer]

I don't think the issue of Wonder Woman's villains lies in who they are per se, but rather how they're used (or misused) or the focus (or lack of focus) they get...The issue to me is not intrinsically the character concepts themselves, but the thought, creativity and respect applied to them. It takes effort and passion and it's going to change over time. It's the nature of art and storytelling.

There was a time I never thought I'd care about Black Adam, Black Manta, Brainiac or Flash's Rogues, but things change.

Doctor Cyber, Osira, Nuclear, the Adjudicator, original Silver Swan, Bushmaster, Eviless, General Electric, Aegeus, Gudra the Valkyrie...all pre-Crisis Wonder-villains and all top-tier, crossover potential! So, why aren't the WW editors twisting writers arms to write stories about them? Why don't we ever see them...like, in the Wonder Woman comic?

Luke's Devastation, Rucka's Medousa and Loebs's White Magician could certainly be added to the list of post-Crisis stars. So, where in Hades are they?

[Auguste Dupin]

Well, to be honest, I just don't think her rogue gallery looks, on a fundamental level, as people that are in the same league as her.
I mean, let's take Cheetah, for instance. If we look at her on a graphical level, what we do we see? A were cheetah. Now, I don't know about you, but for me, a were cheetah is more like a good concept for a Spider-Man villain ("hey cool, maybe she could have a team up with Morbius the vampire, Spider-Man would have to use all his speed and his Spider sense to dodge their attacks"), not a perfect arch nemesis for a heroine with powers in the same league as Superman. Of course, you could tell that she does, but then you always have the risk that someone doesn't get the memo and think " I'll just use that cat villain against Catwoman because, hey, she looks like a cat". Now, nobody would make Darkseid fall because of one punch by Batman. And not just because people know him best, but because he doesn't look like someone who could get oner punched by Batman. Graphically, he's like made of living rock in fusion and shoot killing lasers from his eyes. That's a villain that looks like a heavy hitter that could go toe to toe with Superman.
Same issue with Giganta. A woman that can be really tall? Gimme a break, she has the same powers as Giant Man, that Marvel guy who wasn't as tough as Thor or as smart as Iron man and was pretty much useless.
Now, I know what you're gonna say "yeah, but Luthor, the Joker...". These guys are designed to look like masterminds (or at least, like "very crazy impredictable guy" for the Joker). They fight their achenemesis with their brain. Catwoman would totally one punch these two (and she probably did), but their design tells you that they're not dangerous because of their physical power, but despite of it. Plus, they have interesting relationships with their ennemies. Luthor believes himself to be a good guy, fighting to save the world from that alien that prevents them to reach the stars by themselves. The Joker has a love-hate relationship with Batman that had been explored in detail lots and lots of time. What does Cheetah have psychologically that makes us the perfect ennemy for Wonder Woman?

[AdamYJ]

Well, to be honest, I just don't think her rogue gallery looks, on a fundamental level, as people that are in the same league as her.
I mean, let's take Cheetah, for instance. If we look at her on a graphical level, what we do we see? A were cheetah. Now, I don't know about you, but for me, a were cheetah is more like a good concept for a Spider-Man villain ("hey cool, maybe she could have a team up with Morbius the vampire, Spider-Man would have to use all his speed and his Spider sense to dodge their attacks"), not a perfect arch nemesis for a heroine with powers in the same league as Superman. Of course, you could tell that she does, but then you always have the risk that someone doesn't get the memo and think " I'll just use that cat villain against Catwoman because, hey, she looks like a cat". Now, nobody would make Darkseid fall because of one punch by Batman. And not just because people know him best, but because he doesn't look like someone who could get oner punched by Batman. Graphically, he's like made of living rock in fusion and shoot killing lasers from his eyes. That's a villain that looks like a heavy hitter that could go toe to toe with Superman.
Same issue with Giganta. A woman that can be really tall? Gimme a break, she has the same powers as Giant Man, that Marvel guy who wasn't as tough as Thor or as smart as Iron man and was pretty much useless.
Now, I know what you're gonna say "yeah, but Luthor, the Joker...". These guys are designed to look like masterminds (or at least, like "very crazy impredictable guy" for the Joker). They fight their achenemesis with their brain. Catwoman would totally one punch these two (and she probably did), but their design tells you that they're not dangerous because of their physical power, but despite of it. Plus, they have interesting relationships with their ennemies. Luthor believes himself to be a good guy, fighting to save the world from that alien that prevents them to reach the stars by themselves. The Joker has a love-hate relationship with Batman that had been in detail lots and lots of time. What does Cheetah have psychologically that makes us the perfect ennemy for Wonder Woman?

Honestly, I don't know if the Spider-Man approach is quite right for a DC hero or heroine. DC villians are created more for gimmickry and color than anything. That's what's fun about them in my opinion. Luthor and Joker only became the way they are because writers made them that way. Luthor used to just be an arrogant scientist and Joker a killer with a grin plastered on his face. Whenever they try to create those types of villians for Wonder Woman, I tend to find them less than interesting. For example, Veronica Cale was supposed to be "Diana's Luthor" and I didn't really like her at all. I find I'm more interested in seeing a variety of villians. It's why I think the early Justice League of America had one of the best RGs around. They had alien conquerors like Despero and Kanjar Ro, sorcerers like Felix Faust, artificial men like Amazo and clever humans like Amos Fortune. The idea that a supervillian has to have some kind of "deep, psychological relationship" with the hero in order to be a good villian is something I'm a bit resistant to. It's okay in small doses, but I think it sometimes leads to an overthinking of superhero comics and a writing off of fun characters that bugs me.

Of course, I'm kind of a "retro hipster" when it comes to this stuff. I love digging up old, obscure characters and quickly tire of villians that are very popular (Joker, Luthor, Darkseid, Deathstroke, etc).

[carabas]

Well, to be honest, I just don't think her rogue gallery looks, on a fundamental level, as people that are in the same league as her.
I mean, let's take Cheetah, for instance. If we look at her on a graphical level, what we do we see? A were cheetah.

Only if you just look at the pictures...
And if you're just looking at the pictures, when I see a where-cheetah fighting soem woman in a bathing suit, I'm betting on the where-cheetah every single time.

Now, nobody would make Darkseid fall because of one punch by Batman.

cough*jeph loeb*cough

Now, I know what you're gonna say "yeah, but Luthor, the Joker...". These guys are designed to look like masterminds (or at least, like "very crazy impredictable guy" for the Joker).

The Joker looks like a clown or a playing card, not like a crazy-upredictable guy.

[MelDyer]

Well, to be honest, I just don't think her rogue gallery looks, on a fundamental level, as people that are in the same league as her.
I mean, let's take Cheetah, for instance. If we look at her on a graphical level, what we do we see? A were cheetah. Now, I don't know about you, but for me, a were cheetah is more like a good concept for a Spider-Man villain ("hey cool, maybe she could have a team up with Morbius the vampire, Spider-Man would have to use all his speed and his Spider sense to dodge their attacks"), not a perfect arch nemesis for a heroine with powers in the same league as Superman. Of course, you could tell that she does, but then you always have the risk that someone doesn't get the memo and think " I'll just use that cat villain against Catwoman because, hey, she looks like a cat...

I think what makes Cheetah such a natural archnemesis for Wondy is her motivation, more than her were-cheetah power. Cheetah, simply put, believes that the strong must ultimately prey on the weak ..and seeks to make the world more suited to her Darwinist beliefs, ..and that makes her pretty dangerous. Monstrous. Furthermore, it puts her in direct opposition to Wonder Woman, as a champion and symbol of freedom. The cheetah-power is just a physical manifestataion or expression of Barbara Minerva's personality, rather like a gun or blade...

Just as Superman writers use advanced technology and weaponry as an expression of Lex Luthor's ambitions.

I see Barbara Minerva, philosophically, as more of a fanatic, than Luthor ..and to the extreme that she actually sees people as food! The challenge for writers is to dramatically portray this aspect of Minerva's psyche in a story. I think that is what the JL story accomplished and fairly successfully.

[Hound of UIster]

Umm... You do know that she's basically evil Lara Croft that got transformed into a catperson by a god, and has more than enough speed and raw strength to give Superman a good fight?

Pretty much agreed about her being evil Lara Croft, which is why I say she works in a more down to earth and less mythological setting.

[Auguste Dupin]

Honestly, I don't know if the Spider-Man approach is quite right for a DC hero or heroine. DC villians are created more for gimmickry and color than anything. That's what's fun about them in my opinion. Luthor and Joker only became the way they are because writers made them that way. Luthor used to just be an arrogant scientist and Joker a killer with a grin plastered on his face. Whenever they try to create those types of villians for Wonder Woman, I tend to find them less than interesting. For example, Veronica Cale was supposed to be "Diana's Luthor" and I didn't really like her at all. I find I'm more interested in seeing a variety of villians. It's why I think the early Justice League of America had one of the best RGs around. They had alien conquerors like Despero and Kanjar Ro, sorcerers like Felix Faust, artificial men like Amazo and clever humans like Amos Fortune. The idea that a supervillian has to have some kind of "deep, psychological relationship" with the hero in order to be a good villian is something I'm a bit resistant to. It's okay in small doses, but I think it sometimes leads to an overthinking of superhero comics and a writing off of fun characters that bugs me.

Of course, I'm kind of a "retro hipster" when it comes to this stuff. I love digging up old, obscure characters and quickly tire of villians that are very popular (Joker, Luthor, Darkseid, Deathstroke, etc).

Well, one could argue that trying to have a villain being Diana's "insert another famous villain" name is doomed to fail by definition.
When Meldyer talked about how WW's villains were "just like" and named other villains, I couldn't help think "yeah, but why would I want to read about an expy of another villain? Why would I want to read about a villain trying to be like Dr Doom when I could read about.....Dr Doom?".
Like it or not, but if villains don't have any emotionnal/psychological reason to face that hero in particular, then they're not really part of her Rogue Galler. They're just unlucky enough to always stumble upon her when they commit a crime.
Besides, yes, Luthor and the Joker didn't start of immediately as who they are now. Still, Alan Moore didn't just wake up one day and say "hey, I'm going to take that lame clown villain Batman has and give him this great story that will turn him into an icon". He wrote that book because he saw potential.
Honestly, I always wondered when and how Cheetah became her achnemesis over Ares. I mean, there is some potential with him. He's the reason she left Paradise Island in the first place, he's a villain whose sole purpose is to create conflict (while she is more or less meant to resolve them in a pacific way), plus he's a god so he's likely to kick ass. And she wouldn't be "Diana's Luthor/Joker/Dr Doom", but his own thing.