Red Hood & The Outlaws #17 Preview/Discussion

[DurararaFTW]

Damian is a ten year old and Bruce IS trying to get him to stop killing people. He doesn't even let Damian carry a sword, much less a gun. And Catwoman's stealing and Red Hood's killing isn't exactly on the same level.

he has been pretty unfair to Jason in the past for his actions.

Like I said, if there was a time when Batman was willing to say something about Jason's methods, establishing that it is in fact a problem for him, that he is now trying to work past, then that's something. There isn't, there's just this. The only flashback we do get is the initial Red Hood incident when Jason was full on villain, and in the nu52, would totally have shot Bruce dead if not for Nightwing's last second intervention.

[JasonTodd428]

Damian is more willing to kill, but his go-to weapon isn't a gun, nor does he start each fight with, "Who do I kill first?". Red Hood does. Damian, at least, still considers Bruce a mentor, and is willing to change his behavior to fit his father's ideals...there's plenty of times Damian has had opportunity for justifiable homicide, but forgoes it due to the influence of his mentor, where killing is now the exception. With Jason, he frequently goes straight from "justifiable" to "done".

Damian's justification for killing was to protect his father from harm by removing those that threatened his life and Jason's is to protect other innocent people from harm by removing those that prey on the innocent. I don't see there is much difference there at all other than their methods and chosen weapons. If Bruce is going to acknowledge that his own son has a right use extreme force or even kill then he has to also acknowledge that Jason has that same right. Bottom line is that both characters are killers no matter their methods and Bruce cannot continue to just pat Damian on the wrist while simultaneously decrying Jason's actions.

[Mr. Holmes]

Damian is a ten year old and Bruce IS trying to get him to stop killing people. He doesn't even let Damian carry a sword, much less a gun. And Catwoman's stealing and Red Hood's killing isn't exactly on the same level.

It's not on the same level because people have created this conception that Catwoman stealing isn't really a bad thing at all anymore.

Jason now kills along the lines of pulp heroes like the Shadow or the Spider. It's more realistic than Batman's absolute no-kill rule.

[JasonTodd428]

Like I said, if there was a time when Batman was willing to say something about Jason's methods, establishing that it is in fact a problem for him, that he is now trying to work past, then that's something. There isn't, there's just this. The only flashback we do get is the initial Red Hood incident when Jason was full on villain, and in the nu52, would totally have shot Bruce dead if not for Nightwing's last second intervention.

I don't think there is "just this" at all. For myself, I look at the way Bruce is handling Damian, who is a character who is very similar in a lot of ways to Jason, and I have to wonder if Bruce himself isn't thinking about how he mishandled things with Jason in the past, even up to the recent past that was shown in that flashback. I suppose this might be the reason why his acceptance of Jason now doesn't strike me as strange or as coming out of left field. I also disagree with you that Jason was going to shoot Bruce. He paused a moment before being knocked back by Nightwing so we really have no idea what he would have done there.

[JasonTodd428]

It's not on the same level because people have created this conception that Catwoman stealing isn't really a bad thing at all anymore.

Jason now kills along the lines of pulp heroes like the Shadow or the Spider. It's more realistic than Batman's absolute no-kill rule.

Plus he's merely killing "bad guys" and not innocents. He could have killed all those townfolk who saw what he had done to the Untitled but instead he ran because they were innocent bystanders who'd been tricked by her and even though they came after him to kill him.

[Quinnhop]

Lobdell ruined Jason Todd.

[DurararaFTW]

I don't think there is "just this" at all. For myself, I look at the way Bruce is handling Damian, who is a character who is very similar in a lot of ways to Jason, and I have to wonder if Bruce himself isn't thinking about how he mishandled things with Jason in the past, even up to the recent past that was shown in that flashback.

By the past, you meant, before he died? Sorry, I misunderstood you then.

[JasonTodd428]

By the past, you meant, before he died? Sorry, I misunderstood you then.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry, for the confusion there.

[lex1126]

Tynion has been described everywhere as Snyder's protégé, but I've never seen anyone saying that he had a close working relationship with Lobdell.

i second this. Tynion was Snyder's student in college, and was brought into dc on Synder's request to co-write the batman backups.. thats where he rose through the ranks to write talon and now red hood.

His writing style is very much similar to Snyder - it always begin with a descriptive narration of sorts, before bringing it to the panel scene..

[lex1126]

Damian is a ten year old and Bruce IS trying to get him to stop killing people. He doesn't even let Damian carry a sword, much less a gun.

i actually like the look of damian robin with a sword and hood. it distincts himself from the other boy wonders, much like tim drake's staff.

[Bookem Danno]

I liked this issue. Finally done with the Death of the Family crossover! Something to celebrate. Seriously I've been craving more info on the previous relationship Nightwing had with Kori, Roy, and possibly any other Pre-Flashpoint Titans. Lobdell hinted that there was a team before the Outlaws led by Dick Grayson.
Loved the interaction between Roy and Damian! Damian deflecting the football as if it was an attack had me laughing.

This issue was okay. Some of the dialogue seemed force - Jason said 'REALLY' as if it were a quirk all along. Appropriate closure and followup to DOTF wheret the other titles abruptly move on - that's what made Joker's final laugh here - all the more effective. It ain't really over but I'm okay with this direction. LAME security to get the booby trap in the mansion though. ANOTHER Outlaws team? That seems wrong to retcon in - escpecially with DG in spite of DG having new52 alt-history. The football bit was really fun - but you can't dwell on the logic of the kid's naevity there.

It's also then convenient that he gives a pass to Damian, no?

There is really great speculation on this forum as to why it might make sense - too bad there wasn't actual words on the paper with a bit of exposition on that.

Satisfying in some ways.

Too bad there was no info on Nightwing's canon details with Kori's "perfect chest" right outside. She is a lead character in this book so that scene deserved at least a factoid.

They should have set this before Inc, not after. At least these circumstances explain how the crazy Red Hood became Wingman.

Also, if the rumors of Inc #8 are true...then this issue will make no sense.

I didn't follow that footnote but then Inc. is not my favourite title so probably best if its not dwelled on and the footnote be appreciated for what it is.

I hate how everyone is depicted as "changed" or "scarred" because of what happened in Death of the Family when nothing actually happened that would warrant such drama. Especially when Jason says that he knows what Damian is going through and how he must feel when nothing happened to him. And of course Dick brooding in the shadows about not trusting anyone again.. what? It seems like everything is based off Bruce not telling everyone that the Joker kind of but not really knows about their secret and was almost in the Batcave when it's like so what.. not as big of a deal as they're trying to make it.

What happens in DOTF should stay in DOTF. ;-)

Damian on the other hand, hunted down a pearl lost in the sewer 20 years earlier.

Never did get an answer to my question how a metal detector could detect pearls.

Their title of "Outlaws" has so far been reflected in absolutely nothing.

A sad fact. Really.

[HXHAlex]

Just read this issue. I had no idea about the joker thing. Very cool. We all thought the story was over with Batman 17, and then BAM you're hit with this.... What does it mean for Jason?