All Star or Kingdom Come?

[Dr. Hurt]

Regardless of DC One Million, I treat All-Star as the end. It functions as it's own work and I find the idea of One Million as a sequel unnecessary in that it somewhat tarnishes part of what made the ending to All-Star work (well, work for others anyway). I mean, I don't consider The Kingdom or Thy Kingdom Come as part of the Kingdom Come universe or do I acknowledge The Dark Knight Strikes Again being a sequel to The Dark Knight Returns. That might just be me cherry picking endings, but DC was never big on continuity.

1) Comics never end.
2) Morrison is an optimist.

For both these reasons he didn't kill Superman or Batman for real. He explored what would happen if they ever died, like people's reactions, the villains, the friends, the lovers and successors and when he was finished he brought them back. This way I didnt lose Bruce, but at the same time it was glorious to see Dick and Damian pick up from where he left off and continue his legacy. Damian's dystopian future is also very interesting to read about.

In the same way, Superman died of space cancer and we saw how he dealt with it, with Lois, Lex and his other unfinished business like Kandor.

Um, Captain Marvel isn't a child. And strictly speaking, Superman did win the fight seeing as he had his hands firmly wrapped around Billy Batson, not Marvel's, face at the end.

And why so many people get excited at seeing Superman fight a villain who essentially a spherical ball of fire is beyond me. I understand why many people like certain elements of All-Star that I don't, but Solaris is one that actually baffles me. He's a boring villain whose presence in the story only serves to detract away from Luthor (who I find to be the most interesting character in All-Star) and ultimately is a mere convenience to shove Superman in the sun at the end.

Eh, Solaris isnt that interesting a villain, but I think he has a great design and there's this silver age silliness about him that works well and makes him awesome.

[Buried Alien]

And we bash Byrne because his writing is complete shit and he's a rascist.

I've long known about Byrne being something of a jerk, but "racist" is news to me.

As for his writing, his SUPERMAN was a mixed bag, but his work on FANTASTIC FOUR during the 1980s was great.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Coyote2010]

International diplomacy is based upon the principle of preventing Mutually Assured Destruction, so doesn't it makes sense that that would be the basis for the relationship between the two sides after the conflict ended?

It makes sense when superpower nations behave that way, but it's a very somber take on the Superman legend. In the end he is not a paragon of human aspiration, he is just another player in real politik. That type of serious, deconstructed take on Superman seems more suited to Batman and the Dark Knight Returns. I think it is a testament to Superman that not only can his myth carry a dark ending to his story like Kingdom Come, but unlike Batman, it can be as sunny as possible. Solaris is a fine villain I love the fact that it is truly alien and bizarre. It's not another alien form that just happens to look like human.

Kingdom Come, this is definitely a story that I wrestle with as a Superman fan because it violates so many of my notions about the character. It's also a story I've grown to appreciate more because of internet debate and the perspective of others. I definitely think this is fitting end to Post Crisis Superman.

Still, like Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, I find All Star Superman a more fitting end to "a perfect man who came from the sky and did only good."

[Hound of UIster]

I've long known about Byrne being something of a jerk, but "racist" is news to me.

He is a product of his times, but yes he is also a racist.

"Hispanic and Latino women with blond hair look like hookers to me, no matter how clean or "cute" they are. Somehow those skin tones that look so good with dark, dark hair just don't work for me with lighter shades." (2005)

[Ntikrst]

I'm not saying it's simple in the story was mundane or boring writing (All-Star is many things but boring it is not). But Superman fixing and sun and creating a universe simple conclusions in that they are both done without explanation and merely ways of getting from point A to C while ignoring what the hell happened at point B. I can almost forgive his creation of the universe because I did find that issue to be very interesting, but fixing the sun by creating an artificial heart came across as a very simple solution, especially given it makes absolutely no sense.

And I find the idea of Quintum creating a new Superman to be insulting. As if a clone or test-tube Superman or whatever you want to call it can match up. Once again, it felt like a simple way of saying, everything will be okay.


I always did find this to be an interesting fan theory, but didn't Morrison himself say this wasn't his intention?\


Regardless of DC One Million, I treat All-Star as the end. It functions as it's own work and I find the idea of One Million as a sequel unnecessary in that it somewhat tarnishes part of what made the ending to All-Star work (well, work for others anyway). I mean, I don't consider The Kingdom or Thy Kingdom Come as part of the Kingdom Come universe or do I acknowledge The Dark Knight Strikes Again being a sequel to The Dark Knight Returns. That might just be me cherry picking endings, but DC was never big on continuity.

Um, Captain Marvel isn't a child. And strictly speaking, Superman did win the fight seeing as he had his hands firmly wrapped around Billy Batson, not Marvel's, face at the end.

And why so many people get excited at seeing Superman fight a villain who essentially a spherical ball of fire is beyond me. I understand why many people like certain elements of All-Star that I don't, but Solaris is one that actually baffles me. He's a boring villain whose Solaris' presence in the story detracts away from Luthor (who I find to be the most interesting character in All-Star) and in the end is a mere convenience to shove Superman in the sun at the end.

The simplicity you speak of disappoints me the most about All-Star Superman. It's all so incredibly convenient how those moments contribute to Superman's success so much so that at certain points it seems like the plot is advancing itself regardless of Superman's actions because everything works out for him, just so.

All-Star Superman starts out smarter than everyone else so he solves the Ultra-Sphinx riddle handily and he's stronger than everyone else so he easily humiliates Samson and Atlas. Sure, it's a side effect of the power boost that's killing him but it's still boring to watch him overcome with ease.

Then everything gets simpler for Superman after that the closer he gets to the end.

-Black K makes him bad? No problem. The worse Superman acted, the weaker he became until he passed out.
-Parasite On a Rampage? No problem. He'll be engulfed by his own greed because Superman's power overloads him.
-Chronovore on the Loose? No problem. The Superman Squad cleans up the mess without him and Superman gets a second chance to say bye to Pa.
-Bizarro World Attacks? No Problem. Superman punches it in the nose once, the invaders die and then it retreats into the Underverse with it's tail between its legs.
-Escape from Bizarro World? No Problem. When Superman's about to succumb to the increased gravity, Zibarro ignore the pleas of his people and passes on the one and only opportunity to escape a place where he's completely despised because at the last minute he realizes he might be lonely on Earth even with all his Super-Powers and gives up his spot on the escape rocket for Superman.
-Identity Crisis? No Problem. It's the Silver Age, nobody cares that Clark and Superman have both been MIA for two months.
-Tyrants from Krypton? No problem. Before they release the Phantom Zone prisoners or Liberate Kandor, these two Superior combatants with military training almost die of kryptonite poisoning because they conveniently passed through a radioactive cloud in space on their way to Earth.
-Solaris Triumphant? No Problem. Superman created a universe to give him the heads up so he's had lots of prep time.
-Luthor Victorious? No Problem. Superman doesn't have to stay dead, and since his Gravity Gun is handy, why not come back to life and take Luthor's Super Powers away? Luthor has Superman on the ropes in the end but wastes his remaining time monologuing and being overwhelmed by his Super-Senses.

Worst of all, Superman does not throw one punch at SuperLex. All-Star Superman won't go mano a mano with Luthor until he disables Luthor's powers and reverts him to normal. Then Overcharged Superman gladly uses his powers and abilities to beat a mortal man senseless.

-Broken Sun? No Problem. The manner in which Luthor poisoned him allows Superman to convert to energy in order to repair the poisoned Sun. Good thing the Sun has a Blue phase before it "self-destructs" because if it just stayed Red, Superman would die on Earth with everybody else.

I don't know what's worse, All-Star Superman's Super-Convenient-ism or his Stupid Enemies. If Luthor and Solaris really wanted to kill Superman, why didn't they just lure him to the Sun in issue #1 by attacking Quintim's ship, then shift the Sun to Red while Luthor's drone disables the craft? Sure ok, a one-shot Superman Dies issue is no fun, but even at the end why did Solaris "call out" Superman? Why not just continue to conceal his presence after he turned the Sun red? Same with Luthor, he's free, he's got Super Juice and all his gadgets, why is he in such a hurry to confront Superman who is dying and deprived of his power source? Why doesn't SuperLex help Solaris battle Superman and the Superbots? Luthor mentions that Superman loses his powers under Red sunlight but Luthor doesn't seem concerned at all about Red sunlight himself, so why doesn't he go help his partner in crime and get his hands dirty? Then the obvious strategy would be have SuperLex destroy Superman's Solarsuit; he'd lose his powers and then the two of them could finish Superman off under Solaris' Red sun.

Nonsensical Comic books like All-Star Superman are the reason why the genre and the medium at large are looked down upon by the outside world, IMnsHO. It's the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to rape, casual sex and mindless gore but it makes Super Hero comic books look just as bad.

[Coyote2010]

The simplicity you speak of disappoints me the most about All-Star Superman. It's all so incredibly convenient how those moments contribute to Superman's success so much so that at certain points it seems like the plot is advancing itself regardless of Superman's actions because everything works out for him, just so.

All-Star Superman starts out smarter than everyone else so he solves the Ultra-Sphinx riddle handily and he's stronger than everyone else so he easily humiliates Samson and Atlas. Sure, it's a side effect of the power boost that's killing him but it's still boring to watch him overcome with ease.

Then everything gets simpler for Superman after that the closer he gets to the end.

-Black K makes him bad? No problem. The worse Superman acted, the weaker he became until he passed out.
-Parasite On a Rampage? No problem. He'll be engulfed by his own greed because Superman's power overloads him.
-Chronovore on the Loose? No problem. The Superman Squad cleans up the mess without him and Superman gets a second chance to say bye to Pa.
-Bizarro World Attacks? No Problem. Superman punches it in the nose once, the invaders die and then it retreats into the Underverse with it's tail between its legs.
-Escape from Bizarro World? No Problem. When Superman's about to succumb to the increased gravity, Zibarro ignore the pleas of his people and passes on the one and only opportunity to escape a place where he's completely despised because at the last minute he realizes he might be lonely on Earth even with all his Super-Powers and gives up his spot on the escape rocket for Superman.
-Identity Crisis? No Problem. It's the Silver Age, nobody cares that Clark and Superman have both been MIA for two months.
-Tyrants from Krypton? No problem. Before they release the Phantom Zone prisoners or Liberate Kandor, these two Superior combatants with military training almost die of kryptonite poisoning because they conveniently passed through a radioactive cloud in space on their way to Earth.
-Solaris Triumphant? No Problem. Superman created a universe to give him the heads up so he's had lots of prep time.
-Luthor Victorious? No Problem. Superman doesn't have to stay dead, and since his Gravity Gun is handy, why not come back to life and take Luthor's Super Powers away? Luthor has Superman on the ropes in the end but wastes his remaining time monologuing and being overwhelmed by his Super-Senses.

Worst of all, Superman does not throw one punch at SuperLex. All-Star Superman won't go mano a mano with Luthor until he disables Luthor's powers and reverts him to normal. Then Overcharged Superman gladly uses his powers and abilities to beat a mortal man senseless.

-Broken Sun? No Problem. The manner in which Luthor poisoned him allows Superman to convert to energy in order to repair the poisoned Sun. Good thing the Sun has a Blue phase before it "self-destructs" because if it just stayed Red, Superman would die on Earth with everybody else.

I don't know what's worse, All-Star Superman's Super-Convenient-ism or his Stupid Enemies. If Luthor and Solaris really wanted to kill Superman, why didn't they just lure him to the Sun in issue #1 by attacking Quintim's ship, then shift the Sun to Red while Luthor's drone disables the craft? Sure ok, a one-shot Superman Dies issue is no fun, but even at the end why did Solaris "call out" Superman? Why not just continue to conceal his presence after he turned the Sun red? Same with Luthor, he's free, he's got Super Juice and all his gadgets, why is he in such a hurry to confront Superman who is dying and deprived of his power source? Why doesn't SuperLex help Solaris battle Superman and the Superbots? Luthor mentions that Superman loses his powers under Red sunlight but Luthor doesn't seem concerned at all about Red sunlight himself, so why doesn't he go help his partner in crime and go get his hands dirty? Then the obvious strategy would be have SuperLex destroy Superman's Solarsuit; he'd lose his powers and the two of them could finish him off under Solaris' Red sun.

I see this as more summary than criticism and I don't find any inherent simplicity of these scenarios. I guess Kingdom Come could be credited for completley removing his kryptonite radiation weaknesses, but I don't think that makes it a superior Superman story.

[abhilegend]

The simplicity you speak of disappoints me the most about All-Star Superman. It's all so incredibly convenient how those moments contribute to Superman's success so much so that at certain points it seems like the plot is advancing itself regardless of Superman's actions because everything works out for him, just so.

All-Star Superman starts out smarter than everyone else so he solves the Ultra-Sphinx riddle handily and he's stronger than everyone else so he easily humiliates Samson and Atlas. Sure, it's a side effect of the power boost that's killing him but it's still boring to watch him overcome with ease.

Then everything gets simpler for Superman after that the closer he gets to the end.

-Black K makes him bad? No problem. The worse Superman acted, the weaker he became until he passed out.
-Parasite On a Rampage? No problem. He'll be engulfed by his own greed because Superman's power overloads him.
-Chronovore on the Loose? No problem. The Superman Squad cleans up the mess without him and Superman gets a second chance to say bye to Pa.
-Bizarro World Attacks? No Problem. Superman punches it in the nose once, the invaders die and then it retreats into the Underverse with it's tail between its legs.
-Escape from Bizarro World? No Problem. When Superman's about to succumb to the increased gravity, Zibarro ignore the pleas of his people and passes on the one and only opportunity to escape a place where he's completely despised because at the last minute he realizes he might be lonely on Earth even with all his Super-Powers and gives up his spot on the escape rocket for Superman.
-Identity Crisis? No Problem. It's the Silver Age, nobody cares that Clark and Superman have both been MIA for two months.
-Tyrants from Krypton? No problem. Before they release the Phantom Zone prisoners or Liberate Kandor, these two Superior combatants with military training almost die of kryptonite poisoning because they conveniently passed through a radioactive cloud in space on their way to Earth.
-Solaris Triumphant? No Problem. Superman created a universe to give him the heads up so he's had lots of prep time.
-Luthor Victorious? No Problem. Superman doesn't have to stay dead, and since his Gravity Gun is handy, why not come back to life and take Luthor's Super Powers away? Luthor has Superman on the ropes in the end but wastes his remaining time monologuing and being overwhelmed by his Super-Senses.

Worst of all, Superman does not throw one punch at SuperLex. All-Star Superman won't go mano a mano with Luthor until he disables Luthor's powers and reverts him to normal. Then Overcharged Superman gladly uses his powers and abilities to beat a mortal man senseless.

-Broken Sun? No Problem. The manner in which Luthor poisoned him allows Superman to convert to energy in order to repair the poisoned Sun. Good thing the Sun has a Blue phase before it "self-destructs" because if it just stayed Red, Superman would die on Earth with everybody else.

I don't know what's worse, All-Star Superman's Super-Convenient-ism or his Stupid Enemies. If Luthor and Solaris really wanted to kill Superman, why didn't they just lure him to the Sun in issue #1 by attacking Quintim's ship, then shift the Sun to Red while Luthor's drone disables the craft? Sure ok, a one-shot Superman Dies issue is no fun, but even at the end why did Solaris "call out" Superman? Why not just continue to conceal his presence after he turned the Sun red? Same with Luthor, he's free, he's got Super Juice and all his gadgets, why is he in such a hurry to confront Superman who is dying and deprived of his power source? Why doesn't SuperLex help Solaris battle Superman and the Superbots? Luthor mentions that Superman loses his powers under Red sunlight but Luthor doesn't seem concerned at all about Red sunlight himself, so why doesn't he go help his partner in crime and get his hands dirty? Then the obvious strategy would be have SuperLex destroy Superman's Solarsuit; he'd lose his powers and then the two of them could finish Superman off under Solaris' Red sun.

Nonsensical Comic books like All-Star Superman are the reason why the genre and the medium at large are looked down upon by the outside world, IMnsHO. It's the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to rape, casual sex and mindless gore but it makes Super Hero comic books look just as bad.

I don't think I've ever seen a more inane POV. People look down at comic books due to book like All star superman? You gotta be freaking kidding me!

[Mr. Holmes]

I don't think I've ever seen a more inane POV. People look down at comic books due to book like All star superman? You gotta be freaking kidding me!

From my experience, All Star has gotten people into comics. But a lot of that is because of the movie.

[Aquacatlungfish]

If anything, Kingdom Come is an example of why the comic medium has gotten to such a bad state. Poeple who don't like superheroes or the concept of superheroes won't read superheroes, people who do like superheroes will want to read about superheroes. Kingdom Come is an example of trying to pander to both. It's trying to be serious and dark whilst featuring ridiculous characters like Superman and Wonder Woman. People who dislike superheroes will still dislike it whilst people who do like superheroes will probably be disheartened by a Superman who does nothing heroic at all. All Star has a fanbase and goes with it. Kingdom Come does not. Sure KC is adressing how dark the genre has gotten but that just makes it hypocritical.

[Tar22]

The simplicity you speak of disappoints me the most about All-Star Superman. It's all so incredibly convenient how those moments contribute to Superman's success so much so that at certain points it seems like the plot is advancing itself regardless of Superman's actions because everything works out for him, just so.

All-Star Superman starts out smarter than everyone else so he solves the Ultra-Sphinx riddle handily and he's stronger than everyone else so he easily humiliates Samson and Atlas. Sure, it's a side effect of the power boost that's killing him but it's still boring to watch him overcome with ease.

Then everything gets simpler for Superman after that the closer he gets to the end.

-Black K makes him bad? No problem. The worse Superman acted, the weaker he became until he passed out.
-Parasite On a Rampage? No problem. He'll be engulfed by his own greed because Superman's power overloads him.
-Chronovore on the Loose? No problem. The Superman Squad cleans up the mess without him and Superman gets a second chance to say bye to Pa.
-Bizarro World Attacks? No Problem. Superman punches it in the nose once, the invaders die and then it retreats into the Underverse with it's tail between its legs.
-Escape from Bizarro World? No Problem. When Superman's about to succumb to the increased gravity, Zibarro ignore the pleas of his people and passes on the one and only opportunity to escape a place where he's completely despised because at the last minute he realizes he might be lonely on Earth even with all his Super-Powers and gives up his spot on the escape rocket for Superman.
-Identity Crisis? No Problem. It's the Silver Age, nobody cares that Clark and Superman have both been MIA for two months.
-Tyrants from Krypton? No problem. Before they release the Phantom Zone prisoners or Liberate Kandor, these two Superior combatants with military training almost die of kryptonite poisoning because they conveniently passed through a radioactive cloud in space on their way to Earth.
-Solaris Triumphant? No Problem. Superman created a universe to give him the heads up so he's had lots of prep time.
-Luthor Victorious? No Problem. Superman doesn't have to stay dead, and since his Gravity Gun is handy, why not come back to life and take Luthor's Super Powers away? Luthor has Superman on the ropes in the end but wastes his remaining time monologuing and being overwhelmed by his Super-Senses.

Worst of all, Superman does not throw one punch at SuperLex. All-Star Superman won't go mano a mano with Luthor until he disables Luthor's powers and reverts him to normal. Then Overcharged Superman gladly uses his powers and abilities to beat a mortal man senseless.

-Broken Sun? No Problem. The manner in which Luthor poisoned him allows Superman to convert to energy in order to repair the poisoned Sun. Good thing the Sun has a Blue phase before it "self-destructs" because if it just stayed Red, Superman would die on Earth with everybody else.

I don't know what's worse, All-Star Superman's Super-Convenient-ism or his Stupid Enemies. If Luthor and Solaris really wanted to kill Superman, why didn't they just lure him to the Sun in issue #1 by attacking Quintim's ship, then shift the Sun to Red while Luthor's drone disables the craft? Sure ok, a one-shot Superman Dies issue is no fun, but even at the end why did Solaris "call out" Superman? Why not just continue to conceal his presence after he turned the Sun red? Same with Luthor, he's free, he's got Super Juice and all his gadgets, why is he in such a hurry to confront Superman who is dying and deprived of his power source? Why doesn't SuperLex help Solaris battle Superman and the Superbots? Luthor mentions that Superman loses his powers under Red sunlight but Luthor doesn't seem concerned at all about Red sunlight himself, so why doesn't he go help his partner in crime and get his hands dirty? Then the obvious strategy would be have SuperLex destroy Superman's Solarsuit; he'd lose his powers and then the two of them could finish Superman off under Solaris' Red sun.

Nonsensical Comic books like All-Star Superman are the reason why the genre and the medium at large are looked down upon by the outside world, IMnsHO. It's the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to rape, casual sex and mindless gore but it makes Super Hero comic books look just as bad.

The real challenges Superman faced in All Star Superman were the ones that superpowers or convenience can't fix.

- His intellect and strength saved Lois from Samson, Atlas, and the Ultra Sphinx, but he can't stop his impending death.
- He saved Lex's life in the prison, but he couldn't save his soul.
- The Chronovore was captured, but he couldn't change the past.

And issue 10 is the best.

[passer-by]

He is a product of his times, but yes he is also a racist.

"Hispanic and Latino women with blond hair look like hookers to me, no matter how clean or "cute" they are. Somehow those skin tones that look so good with dark, dark hair just don't work for me with lighter shades." (2005)

Iirc, he said that about the casting of Jessica Alba as Sue Storm in the FF film(s).
I wouldn't use these words, but I also think it was a huge miscasting.

[Auguste Dupin]

Iirc, he said that about the casting of Jessica Alba as Sue Storm in the FF film(s).
I wouldn't use these words, but I also think it was a huge miscasting.

I'd say there's a line between saying that Jessica Alba looks like shit as Sue Storm, and saying that all Hispanic and Latino women with blonde hair look like hookers (if anything, a line of good taste, without even considering the racist and sexist implications of what he's saying).

[greatmetropolitan]

Kingdom Come was well written. The Superman it depicted gave up when things got tough. He came back only after disaster struck that he couldn't ignore, acted as judge and jury and imprisoned people he didn't like in an honest to god Gulag. Then in the most cliched pairing in the word, he got together with Wonder Woman. All this went with pretty art, but art that I'm not a particular fan of.

Whatever Happened massacred Superman's friends, stripped him of his powers, called him arrogant and killed a dog.

All-Star Superman told you there's always a way, you're stronger than you think. There was a kiss on the moon and the promise of life.

All-Star annihilates the opposition for me. It felt like Superman, for everyone, not someone trying to write the Superman grown ups will find palatable.

[vend-el]

I agree with clownprince. All-Star didn't capture me as much as Kingdom Come. That said I'm not a huge fan of any of Morrison's work. I personally feels he tries to hard to make things complicated when sometimes you can find brilliance in simplicity. Is his run on Action really going to be an 18 issue story about mr.mxyzptlk?

[Predabot]

I'm going to throw my hat in with Kingdom Come. Despite it being or maybe because it's also a Universe tale I like that ending better. All Star was good, but Superman being stuck in the sun making a machine isn't exactly the ending I was hoping for.

The ending isn't quite what it seemed. If you knew what the most ardent fans know, then you know that the ending, is but a beginning...

Morrison's implication, is that Superman is a story without end, he cannot die, for he is the dream, the culmination of all the ideas of heroism that humanity has held troughout history, the hope we all share.

If you read it with everything else that Morrison has written on Superman, ( prior to new-52) then you know that in 1000 years... Superman will emerge from the sun, transformed into a golden god-like being - and then begins the greatest era in human history! Then we all become Supermen, so in the year 895 000, every single being on Earth is Super-human, in that age, we will all join Superman in the Sun.

He's the Man of Tomorrow! Literally, my friend, LITERALLY!