All Star or Kingdom Come?

[clownprince01]

Two things here:

1. Since DC One Million came out first and I already loved it, I did not think it was unnecessary and accepted it as part of the overall story immediately. Especially since DC1M is already obliquely referenced within All-Star itself anyway.

2. Since I am one of the people for whom All-Star's ending did work and you are not, I think I'm a better judge of what tarnishes what. DC One Million tarnishes nothing.

Speaking of baffling...

That was a somewhat oblique reference to the way I, like others, like to piece my own canon together for certain characters and that means treating some stories as the definitive origin or others as an ending. But you know, to each his own.

[Mr. Holmes]

Clown, I have to say, I appreciate having a dissenting view on All Star (that isn't trolling like Nitkrst's posts), even if I don't necessarily agree.

[Buried Alien]

I liked the (super)human drama in KINGDOM COME more, and felt that by the time I'd reached its uplifting ending, I'd really earned it.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[stk]

That was a somewhat oblique reference to the way I, like others, like to piece my own canon together for certain characters and that means treating some stories as the definitive origin or others as an ending. But you know, to each his own.

Yeah, that's cool... we all do that to some extent. I just thought it was funny that usually people seem to complain about DC being too big on continuity, not the other way around.

[abhilegend]

Um, Captain Marvel isn't a child.

He is not? I didn't know about it untill you reminded me./sarcasm

And strictly speaking, Superman did win the fight seeing as he had his hands firmly wrapped around Billy Batson, not Marvel's, face at the end.

After cap beat the shit out of him and he was on his knees, cap stopped and gave him time to recover. Superman didn't won that fight, cap lost that fight by his own foolishness. Honestly that was Alex Ross just giving middle finger to superman fans and he just finished it in Justice.

And why so many people get excited at seeing Superman fight a villain who essentially a spherical ball of fire is beyond me.

That spherical ball of fire just killed a sun-eater, something entire LOSH and in case of Final Night whole Earth's superheroes couldn't do anything. He's the ultimate enemy of superman, he twists the very source of superman's powers. He's a tyrant sun, while superman gets his powers from a sun. What's not to loveabout him?:p

I understand why many people like certain elements of All-Star that I don't, but Solaris is one that actually baffles me. He's a boring villain whose presence in the story only serves to detract away from Luthor (who I find to be the most interesting character in All-Star) and ultimately is a mere convenience to shove Superman in the sun at the end.

I don't blame you for finding Solaris boring but excuse me and others if they find superman beating him to an inch of his life more interesting than Alex Ross showing how much of a badass Captain Marvel is compared to a wussy superman in Kingdom Come.

[clownprince01]

Clown, I have to say, I appreciate having a dissenting view on All Star (that isn't trolling like Nitkrst's posts), even if I don't necessarily agree.

Right back at you. Nice having a Morrison fan who can have a reasoned debate instead of merely spouting fanatical praise. My God, rational debates and mutual respect on an internet forum. What has the world come to?

He is not? I didn't know about it untill you reminded me./sarcasm After cap beat the shit out of him and he was on his knees, cap stopped and gave him time to recover. Superman didn't won that fight, cap lost that fight by his own foolishness. Honestly that was Alex Ross just giving middle finger to superman fans and he just finished it in Justice.

You're the one who said he was a child, not me. And technically that's still winning the fight. And I don't think Superman was really trying kill him or maim him or anything. He spends most of the fight trying to reason with Marvel. Seriously though, most of this does come across as hero worship. Superman wasn't suppose to be able to solve all the problems, he wasn't suppose to win every fight. There was no easy way out, there were only tough decisions. And ultimately, isn't Superman redeeming Marvel better than him beating the crap out of him? And while you think about this, I'll remind you that in the story, Billy Batson is an abused child with severe mental problems resulting from years of brainwashing. It wouldn't be a good look for Superman, even if Billy, as Marvel, was the second most powerful being on the Earth.

And FYI, Alex Ross is a massive Superman fan. He's said more than once he has Superman to thank for his entire career. Writing Superman as imperfect isn't an insult to the character.

That spherical ball of fire just killed a sun-eater, something entire LOSH and in case of Final Night whole Earth's superheroes couldn't do anything. He's the ultimate enemy of superman, he twists the very source of superman's powers. He's a tyrant sun, while superman gets his powers from a sun. What's not to loveabout him?:p

I don't blame you for finding Solaris boring but excuse me and others if they find superman beating him to an inch of his life more interesting than Alex Ross showing how much of a badass Captain Marvel is compared to a wussy superman in Kingdom Come.

I get the idea behind him, but you need more than an idea or concept to make something interesting. The fight did nothing for me. He just punched a giant flaming ball again and again. Ultimately, I found the build up to the Luthor showdown much more interesting and felt the Solaris fight was just intrusive was ultimately, merely a way to shove Superman in the sun at the end. And by the way, I will say that like all of Luthor's scenes in All-Star, I did enjoy their final fight. Although I actually found the movie adaptation of All-Star had a slightly better resolution in that after the fight, Luthor slumped down to his knees and accepted that Superman was right as opposed to getting knocked out in that "take him away boys" type resolution.

[abhilegend]

You're the one who said he was a child, not me.

Yes I did and that was just a humorous way to describe captain marvel.

And technically that's still winning the fight.

No, it isn't. Superman grabbed the mouth of billy batson while he was a human.

And I don't think Superman was really trying kill him or maim him or anything.

He was firing HV on cap's face, I think he was trying his best to stop cap but couldn't. Alex Ross described that fight as "Superman realizing he isn't the alpha dog anymore".

He spends most of the fight trying to reason with Marvel.

While firing HV on his face, way to reason superman!!!

Seriously though, most of this does come across as hero worship.

I don't want superman to get curbstomped written by a silver age fanatic who thinks DC not making Captain marvel the top dog is them destroying his character.

Superman wasn't suppose to be able to solve all the problems, he wasn't suppose to win every fight.

He didn't win ANY fight.

There was no easy way out, there were only tough decisions.

So, the tough decision superman made was getting the crap beaten out of him. What a tough decision!!!!!!

And ultimately, isn't Superman redeeming Marvel better than him beating the crap out of him?

No, it isn't.

And while you think about this, I'll remind you that in the story, Billy Batson is an abused child with severe mental problems resulting from years of brainwashing. It wouldn't be a good look for Superman, even if Billy, as Marvel, was the second most powerful being on the Earth.

He could've at least looked equal to cap like most of their fights. Cap was the most powerful hero on earth. KC superman accepted that in JSA, "The mightiest of us all".

And FYI, Alex Ross is a massive Superman fan. He's said more than once he has Superman to thank for his entire career.

I don't know which world you live in but everyone who has read his work know he's a captain marvel fanboy through and through.

Writing Superman as imperfect isn't an insult to the character.

Nobody is saying that. Writing superman as a emo, direction-less, weak willed wuss is an insult though like most of post-crisis stories. I want to read superman not some random, generic marvel superhero wearing superman's costume.

I get the idea behind him, but you need more than an idea or concept to make something interesting. The fight did nothing for me.

That's all that's needed to be said. I don't blame you for your tastes. You shouldn't do that to mine.

[nightrider]

All Star Superman, without a doubt.

[clownprince01]

Not sure I agree with those points and I'm not sure you grasped my meaning about the whole Superman not winning every fight and making tough decisions (I was speaking more broadly about the story, not just the fight). Anyhow, I don't want to talk about this for too much longer or else we'll just be going around in circles but for now...

No, it isn't. Superman grabbed the mouth of billy batson while he was a human.

Marvel got the upper hand in the fight by using the lightning as an offensive weapon to hurt Superman as oppose to it's usual purpose. Superman was fast enough the last time to hold Marvel in place so that the lightning hit them both thus turning Marvel back into a mortal. I'd say that's a pretty definitive win. Some may say that's the equivalent of winning a match because the other guy tore his ACL but I say that's Superman exploiting Marvel's weakness/cockiness.

Superman won, redeemed Marvel and from the devastation, facilitated a lasting peace.

I don't know which world you live in but everyone who has read his work know he's a captain marvel fanboy through and through. Nobody is saying that. Writing superman as a emo, direction-less, weak willed wuss is an insult though like most of post-crisis stories. I want to read superman not some random, generic marvel superhero wearing superman's costume.

It's well known that Ross is a Superman fan first and foremost; just read his art books (which is a must own for any fan of Ross by the way). He's a Captain Marvel fan too, but you just look at his work to see where his heart really lies.

I view his depiction of Superman in Kingdom Come as flawed but certainly not an "emo, direction-less, weak willed wuss". If anything, he goes through most of the story ruling with an iron fist. He's not perfect, he's been damaged by all the hurt and death in his life. And it makes for great drama to see him overcome his demons and become a true and inspiration leader once more in the end. It's fine that All-Star is written as a love letter to the character. But I felt the drama and suspense suffered.

That's all that's needed to be said. I don't blame you for your tastes. You shouldn't do that to mine.

Sorry if you thought I was attacking you, but I just honestly don't see the appeal of Solaris beyond his concept and what he stands for. I just found the whole Solaris segment intrusive and a convenience to bring about the ending Morrison wanted. But like I said, while I don't like All-Star, I was impressed by some parts, particularly how he portrayed Luthor.

You dislike Kingdom Come, I dislike All-Star. To each his own.

[Coyote2010]

I think the internal logic of All Star Superman is just fine. The Superman from the end of issue 12 clearly visits Superman in Smallville. Mapping his DNA, repairing the Sun, those aren't just plot devices, those ideas are established as the series unfolds. He begins creating his own Super Formula in issue 2. Repairing the Sun, why not? He sees the fabric of the Universe, that's what redeems Lex, why wouldn't he be able to pull off repairing the Sun? I don't see a jump from point A to C. I see these ideas referenced internally throughout the series.

They make as much sense as after an attack on the UN, the world forgives Superman. Don't try that in real life. Despite a second nuclear disaster and his disregard for human law in much of the series, why would the world forgive Superman? Unless might does make right and they have to because they can't stop him, that undermines the book's central premise. In a book that strives for realism, that is just as fanciful as anything in All Star Superman.

As far as Superman vs. Captain Marvel, Marvel clearly shows he is faster and stronger than Superman. I think that's fine, but he does lose the fight. Superman's goal is to redeem Marvel and defeat Luthor by ridding Batson of his influence, Superman does both. That to me is the big Kingom Come victory.

[Ntikrst]

I think the internal logic of All Star Superman is just fine. The Superman from the end of issue 12 clearly visits Superman in Smallville. Mapping his DNA, repairing the Sun, those aren't just plot devices, those ideas are established as the series unfolds. He begins creating his own Super Formula in issue 2. Repairing the Sun, why not? He sees the fabric of the Universe, that's what redeems Lex, why wouldn't he be able to pull off repairing the Sun? I don't see a jump from point A to C. I see these ideas referenced internally throughout the series.

They make as much sense as after an attack on the UN, the world forgives Superman. Don't try that in real life. Despite a second nuclear disaster and his disregard for human law in much of the series, why would the world forgive Superman? Unless might does make right and they have to because they can't stop him, that undermines the book's central premise. In a book that strives for realism, that is just as fanciful as anything in All Star Superman.

As far as Superman vs. Captain Marvel, Marvel clearly shows he is faster and stronger than Superman. I think that's fine, but he does lose the fight. Superman's goal is to redeem Marvel and defeat Luthor by ridding Batson of his influence, Superman does both. That to me is the big Kingom Come victory.

International diplomacy is based upon the principle of preventing Mutually Assured Destruction, so doesn't it makes sense that that would be the basis for the relationship between the two sides after the conflict ended?

[abhilegend]

Not sure I agree with those points and I'm not sure you grasped my meaning about the whole Superman not winning every fight and making tough decisions (I was speaking more broadly about the story, not just the fight). Anyhow, I don't want to talk about this for too much longer or else we'll just be going around in circles but for now...

Ok.

Marvel got the upper hand in the fight by using the lightning as an offensive weapon to hurt Superman as oppose to it's usual purpose. Superman was fast enough the last time to hold Marvel in place so that the lightning hit them both thus turning Marvel back into a mortal.

That's not what happened. Cap got reckless, gave superman a moment to recover, shouted shazam and then superman somehow grabbed cap and made him stand in the front of the lightning by surprise.




Cap was just taken by surprise.

I'd say that's a pretty definitive win. Some may say that's the equivalent of winning a match because the other guy tore his ACL but I say that's Superman exploiting Marvel's weakness/cockiness.

That's it. Superman got his ass kicked and then cap tossed him aside like garbage when he flew after the bomb.

Superman won, redeemed Marvel and from the devastation, facilitated a lasting peace.

That's hardly a win, he had to be calmed down and "They lived happily ever after" is just a weak ending without any sort of explanation to how an act of genocide was so easily forgotten.

It's well known that Ross is a Superman fan first and foremost; just read his art books (which is a must own for any fan of Ross by the way). He's a Captain Marvel fan too, but you just look at his work to see where his heart really lies.

O really? He is a massive Captain marvel fanboy. I don't know where you got this info that he's a superman fan first. Just look at how he writes cap upstage superman at every turn be it KC, Justice or Thy Kingdom Come. Its not even a question.

I view his depiction of Superman in Kingdom Come as flawed but certainly not an "emo, direction-less, weak willed wuss".

I do.

If anything, he goes through most of the story ruling with an iron fist.

Him making a few villains lock up in Gulag doesn't makes him ruling with an iron fist. Him quitting his superhero life because people liked the killer of the monster who killed his wife makes him an emo.

He's not perfect, he's been damaged by all the hurt and death in his life.

He's a straight up loser. I don't want to read spider-man in my superman comic, thank you very much.

And it makes for great drama to see him overcome his demons and become a true and inspiration leader once more in the end.

LOLWUT? Inspirational leader? Where?

It's fine that All-Star is written as a love letter to the character. But I felt the drama and suspense suffered.

Yeah, its not like he was gradually dying or something right? KC superman was rejected by people, that's called hardship and he is like "Woe is me" but dying? That's just small potatoes compared to Superman being rejected by a poll./sarcasm. If that would've happened to KC superman, he'd probably end up crying on batman's shoulders.

Sorry if you thought I was attacking you, but I just honestly don't see the appeal of Solaris beyond his concept and what he stands for.

Not at all. Its all in good fun.

You dislike Kingdom Come, I dislike All-Star. To each his own.

I don't dislike Kingdom Come, I dislike KC superman. There's a difference in both.

[Ntikrst]

Clown, I have to say, I appreciate having a dissenting view on All Star (that isn't trolling like Nitkrst's posts), even if I don't necessarily agree.

How are my posts on All-Star trolling, other than they strongly disagree with yours? I may be passionate about my views but imagine if one of your favorite characters was written in the style of your least favorite interpretations and then it happens again and everywhere you go there's this outspoken clique who will follow you around and personally attack you for expressing any criticisms about the merit of the work.

A lot of you guys badmouth Byrne's run at every turn and you don't see me belly-aching about your views. Just sayin...

[Ntikrst]

double post

[Aquacatlungfish]

How are my posts on All-Star trolling, other than they strongly disagree with yours? I may be passionate about my views but imagine if one of your favorite characters was written in the style of your least favorite interpretations and then it happens again and everywhere you go there's this outspoken clique who will follow you around and personally attack you for expressing any criticisms about the merit of the work.

A lot of you guys badmouth Byrne's run at every turn and you don't see me belly-aching about your views. Just sayin...

You went on a "New 52 Superman Like Thread" and then bashed Morrison and his work, I would indeed say you are a troll. Disliking All Star is not the reason people consider you a troll or an intellectual inferior, it's the wya you express yourself that gives other people that impression.

And we bash Byrne because his writing is complete shit and he's a rascist.