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  1. #151
    Senior Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vil_Dee View Post
    I get you. Before you could have said that the "he knows, but doesn't care" idea was due to Joker's need for a challenge. Joker knew he was Bruce, but chose not to use that information because there would be no challenge in killing Bruce Wayne, it would be anti-climatic and not worthy of him. Here the motivation for not caring is different. He just doesn't want to know. He doesn't want to think of Batman in that way, because then he'll start to think about himself in that way.
    The story doesn't actually allow you to make an assertion like that 'definitive', though. It could just as easily be interpreted that the Joker saw that Batman was disguised as Bruce Wayne, in which case the face he's being shown doesn't matter because it's not really 'him'. Batman was showing the Joker that he had his calling card, not 'Bruce Wayne'.


    Past stories never suggested that the thought of being confronted with his true identity would give Joker a hernia. Before you might have just thought he'd shrug it off or not even be able to recognize it. He talks about removing his face to prove that he is the same underneath, and yet he never actually takes his "mask" off.
    He had the face 'off' for a year and when he initially came back (before stealing it), and his initial actions weren't 'traditional Joker'. Once the face was back in place he 'returned' to his previously established MO but with added 'twists' (the frowns instead of the smiles, targeting the 'would-be poisoned' before unleashing the poison). The face was put back in place in order to reaffirm that it was 'him', because although the actions were all his he still needed recognition from the 'king', the 'family', the 'court' and the 'people'.


    The story also gave an alternative superstitious reason for why Bats doesn't kill the Joker. Snyder's been building up Gotham in to being this breathing, alive, (evil?) city, so Bats having this weird thought about the city creating this perfect adversary to challenge and torment him, fits in with Snyder's myth building, and other past stories (ie. Gotham seems to be a really good place to summon demons).
    There have been allusions to this way of thinking on several occasions prior to Snyder taking the helm.

    I also think this story, more than any other, really showed how in tune Batman and Joker are. I mean, who didn't think Bats was totally off his rocker when he insisted that Joker couldn't have been in the batcave and didn't know their identities? We all thought he was one arrogant, naive, dumbaSS SOB. It was like CoO all over again. But he turned out to be totally right!! The owl dudes, he didn't know sh't, but Joker, he knew, he kneeeeewww. ANd I think the fact that he knows Joker so well really creeps the Batclan out, and is another source of alienation for them besides Bruce's lies and mistrust.
    This is where the story fell flat for me - Bruce's reasoning for not telling them how he knew what he knew actually (to me) establishes that he doubted the veracity of his own conclusions. He didn't even bother taking a moment to explain to the others what he did to make sure that the Joker hadn't been in the cave. Instead, he shows them a supersized version of the card and tells them, basically, 'the little calling card bugged me so I made a big one as a reminder...'.

    All it would have taken was a few moments - a few moments to explain what had happened and how he knew the Joker had to have let go. The hardest bit, of course, would have been to tell them that he tried to announce himself to the Joker but, as I said above, that could easily have been passed off as 'disguised as Bruce Wayne', much like he is sometimes 'disguised as Matches Mallone'.

    Of course, the reassurance they would have had through Bruce telling them would have meant that they weren't all panicky and 'omigosh, he knows who I really am' when they were confronting him, and the intended narrative would have fallen apart...


    And you know this story showed that Joker actually learned something from past events and adapted. He didn't just start hating the batfamily. He killed them, he maimed them. They were still there. They even got bigger. So instead of an assault on the city walls, he snuck in on the Trojan horse and let the whole thing crumble from within.
    And yet, 'it' was still standing. His attempt and driving them to kill themselves failed, and although Snyder forced a situation where they all shunned Bruce (in reality, they're shunning Alfred - poor guy), the walls are merely battered and smoky rather than 'rubble'.

  2. #152
    just does things Vil_Dee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    The story doesn't actually allow you to make an assertion like that 'definitive', though. It could just as easily be interpreted that the Joker saw that Batman was disguised as Bruce Wayne, in which case the face he's being shown doesn't matter because it's not really 'him'. Batman was showing the Joker that he had his calling card, not 'Bruce Wayne'.
    If he could recognize Bruce Wayne as a disguise that Batman was wearing he wouldn't ignore him, he'd be like "what's with the stupid getup, Bats?"

    And really why else would he be worried that Bats knows who he is? Is he afraid someone is going to use that knowledge to kill his meemaw?


    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    He had the face 'off' for a year and when he initially came back (before stealing it), and his initial actions weren't 'traditional Joker'. Once the face was back in place he 'returned' to his previously established MO but with added 'twists' (the frowns instead of the smiles, targeting the 'would-be poisoned' before unleashing the poison). The face was put back in place in order to reaffirm that it was 'him', because although the actions were all his he still needed recognition from the 'king', the 'family', the 'court' and the 'people'.
    He never revealed the face underneath to Bats or the Batfamily. While faceless, he remained in the shadows stalking them and planning. He put the face back on when he was ready to confront them.


    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    There have been allusions to this way of thinking on several occasions prior to Snyder taking the helm.
    You mean about the city being alive? Yes, but Bats didn't use that as a reason to not kill the Joker before. And since Snyder has been using that idea about Gotham, Bats statement didn't come out of nowhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    This is where the story fell flat for me - Bruce's reasoning for not telling them how he knew what he knew actually (to me) establishes that he doubted the veracity of his own conclusions. He didn't even bother taking a moment to explain to the others what he did to make sure that the Joker hadn't been in the cave. Instead, he shows them a supersized version of the card and tells them, basically, 'the little calling card bugged me so I made a big one as a reminder...'.

    All it would have taken was a few moments - a few moments to explain what had happened and how he knew the Joker had to have let go. The hardest bit, of course, would have been to tell them that he tried to announce himself to the Joker but, as I said above, that could easily have been passed off as 'disguised as Bruce Wayne', much like he is sometimes 'disguised as Matches Mallone'.

    Of course, the reassurance they would have had through Bruce telling them would have meant that they weren't all panicky and 'omigosh, he knows who I really am' when they were confronting him, and the intended narrative would have fallen apart...
    He didn't tell them because a). He's a control freak b). He's worried that they won't believe him and go after Joker and possibly get themselves killed c). He'd have to admit to doing something as reckless and nutty as visiting Joker's cell as Bruce Wayne and giving him back the Joker card he left in the cave (right after taking Dicky in, no less), with no real idea of how he would react, and probably just that information alone would have them never speak to him again. d). Admitting you know someone like JOker that well kind of makes you look like a creepy weirdo yourself. Bats has flaws, you know.


    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    And yet, 'it' was still standing. His attempt and driving them to kill themselves failed, and although Snyder forced a situation where they all shunned Bruce (in reality, they're shunning Alfred - poor guy), the walls are merely battered and smoky rather than 'rubble'.

    I believe that was always his intention for them to shun him and destroy the family that way. Or why would he have bothered planting the seeds for future hilarity with Jason and Tim, if he expected them to die there?

  3. #153
    Senior Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vil_Dee View Post
    If he could recognize Bruce Wayne as a disguise that Batman was wearing he wouldn't ignore him, he'd be like "what's with the stupid getup, Bats?"
    Like he did in Death in the Family? You've put forward a reaction, but it's not necessarily the reaction.

    And really why else would he be worried that Bats knows who he is? Is he afraid someone is going to use that knowledge to kill his meemaw?
    Because it would mean that beneath his skin isn't 'more grin', that the identity he has affirmed for himself this past year isn't 'absolute'.


    He never revealed the face underneath to Bats or the Batfamily. While faceless, he remained in the shadows stalking them and planning. He put the face back on when he was ready to confront them.
    He never had to - he revealed himself and the 'uncovered layer' through his actions. Putting the face back on was a confirming to those at the 'reunion' that 'yes, this is the guy you knew - different but the same', and by wearing the 'traditional clothes' in the final issue 'the jester' was back.


    You mean about the city being alive?
    No, about something worse taking the Joker's place.

    Yes, but Bats didn't use that as a reason to not kill the Joker before. And since Snyder has been using that idea about Gotham, Bats statement didn't come out of nowhere.
    See above.



    He didn't tell them because...
    Restating the 'reasons' doesn't make it less of a failing overall. It works for you, didn't work for me.



    I believe that was always his intention for them to shun him and destroy the family that way. Or why would he have bothered planting the seeds for future hilarity with Jason and Tim, if he expected them to die there?
    So he had no intention to have them kill each other? He knew they would fight through the gas and huddle?

  4. #154
    just does things Vil_Dee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    Like he did in Death in the Family? You've put forward a reaction, but it's not necessarily the reaction.
    That just shows that Snyder gave a new take on it, because it is contrary to that moment in Death in the Family. And since there was a reboot any past event can be altered.

    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    Because it would mean that beneath his skin isn't 'more grin', that the identity he has affirmed for himself this past year isn't 'absolute'.
    He's not afraid of other past versions of the Joker, he's afraid of his identity when he wasn't the Joker otherwise he wouldn't be reminiscing about his past capers and sticking laughing fish on the people mural.


    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    He never had to - he revealed himself and the 'uncovered layer' through his actions. Putting the face back on was a confirming to those at the 'reunion' that 'yes, this is the guy you knew - different but the same', and by wearing the 'traditional clothes' in the final issue 'the jester' was back.
    If he never had to, why cut his face off to start. He could have said the same thing about him and Batman always being the same person while the others were just posers. Why cut it off then if you're not going to show what's under there?


    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    No, about something worse taking the Joker's place.
    I've read a lot of JOker stories and never seen this, so if you can tell me the past story where Batman says he doesn't kill the Joker because he's afraid gotham will send him something worse, that would be great.

    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    So he had no intention to have them kill each other? He knew they would fight through the gas and huddle?
    Ok, so he tampered with Jason's helmet and doused Tim in crazy juice so that they could both die before either of those things could bear fruit.
    His plan was a fake out! misdirection! Hence the "Ha" at the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    Restating the 'reasons' doesn't make it less of a failing overall. It works for you, didn't work for me.
    Ok, well I was replying to someone who it did work for and you felt the need to reply to mine, so it would be nice for future reference not to waste my time.

  5. #155
    Senior Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vil_Dee View Post
    That just shows that Snyder gave a new take on it, because it is contrary to that moment in Death in the Family. And since there was a reboot any past event can be altered.
    And is open to interpretation - you read it your way and I have my way.


    He's not afraid of other past versions of the Joker, he's afraid of his identity when he wasn't the Joker otherwise he wouldn't be reminiscing about his past capers and sticking laughing fish on the people mural.
    I wasn't referring to the past versions of the Joker, but his past. The removal of the face was to establish that he is the Joker through and through, but if his 'true identity' is known then the Joker (any version) ceases to be 'real'.


    If he never had to, why cut his face off to start. He could have said the same thing about him and Batman always being the same person while the others were just posers. Why cut it off then if you're not going to show what's under there?
    Would it have been as forceful? As convincing? (Sure, it failed, but it 'seemed' to have its moment).

    As for why it wasn't shown, you'll have to ask Snyder.



    I've read a lot of JOker stories and never seen this, so if you can tell me the past story where Batman says he doesn't kill the Joker because he's afraid gotham will send him something worse, that would be great.
    I think it was over in Legends. I'll have a dig around when I have a chance.


    Ok, so he tampered with Jason's helmet and doused Tim in crazy juice so that they could both die before either of those things could bear fruit.
    Contingencies. *shrug*

    His plan was a fake out! misdirection! Hence the "Ha" at the end.
    I didn't like the computer telling Bruce that, he should have known (in my opinion). Sure, it may have meant some 'homework' for some readers, but I think the 'Ha' (in quotes) coming from Bruce would have worked better.


    Ok, well I was replying to someone who it did work for and you felt the need to reply to mine, so it would be nice for future reference not to waste my time.
    Isn't that the point of an 'open forum'? I suppose you could put a 'adkal, don't reply to this' if you want to...

    And when I replied to you I outlined why it didn't work for me, your response was to restate...so you were wasting your own time...

  6. #156
    just does things Vil_Dee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    And is open to interpretation - you read it your way and I have my way.
    You realize, either way you interpret it, mine or yours, it's still different then what has come before, right? No one has suggested that Joker, knowing Bruce is Batman, willfully ignores him because he considers it "Bats in a disguise" and so that's technically a time out as far as their game is concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    I wasn't referring to the past versions of the Joker, but his past. The removal of the face was to establish that he is the Joker through and through, but if his 'true identity' is known then the Joker (any version) ceases to be 'real'.
    He could easily say that his former identity is long dead, so it is irrelevant what he was before, but he doesn't want to be thought of as a regular person ever even in past tense. He keeps contending that him and Batman are different than everybody else, they're special. Them turning out to be just regular people who had something happen to them and basically turned into freaks, doesn't wash with him. It would ruin the fantasy.


    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    I think it was over in Legends. I'll have a dig around when I have a chance.
    You mean the one with Aquaman?


    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    Contingencies. *shrug*
    You said he failed and yet Dicky is leaving far away from Gotham, Toddy wasn't happy with Bats to start with and now he looks like Ghost Rider. Tim looks like he's gonna lose his mind. Batgirl looks like she's about to turn into female Punisher. And Damian. . .well, you know. Doesn't look like everyone came out with just a few scratches.





    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    Isn't that the point of an 'open forum'? I suppose you could put a 'adkal, don't reply to this' if you want to...

    And when I replied to you I outlined why it didn't work for me, your response was to restate...so you were wasting your own time...
    The point is to discuss. It's not a discussion if one person is going on full analysis mode and the other is basically "Well, that's your opinion." I know it's my opinion!
    It's my opinion, and I gave examples to support my opinion. I'm not responding to everything with "That's your opinion", "That's your interpretation", "That's how you see it", "That's how you read it". I'm not here for that. I can have a more stimulating conversation talking to myself.

  7. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by YMCMB View Post
    This isn't a revelation at all. The vast majority of Batfamily fans have understood this since at least Death in the Family, Snyder just went ahead and spelled it out for all the dumbies that couldn't figure it out for themselves.
    I'd have to disagree. I think the Joker has always expressed that it didn't MATTER who was under the mask, but he's never let on that he didn't care. He said it didn't matter to him and it doesn't; the Bat is just a symbol that he wants to destroy. But, that he wants to destroy that symbol so much that he doesn't even care who's underneath is a further revelation into Joker's psyche.

  8. #158
    "I Am Nothing." Trilipush's Avatar
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    Or maybe Joker needs to NOT care because that would possibly broach the subject of his own secret identity. The"'grin' behind the grin" is a defense mechanism on the Joker's part since the truth of his own identity will destroy him. The fact that Bruce Wayne/Batman plays at masks might have goaded the Joker to play along. Joker "loves" Batman because he needs to play this vicious game of bats and clowns in order to keep himself sane... of a sort.
    Last edited by Trilipush; 02-21-2013 at 08:06 PM.

  9. #159
    Renegade of Funk HessTheMess's Avatar
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    I thought Death of the Family was great overall, but the "falling out" between the Bat Family seemed a little forced in the end. During the entire arc I was expecting that either Tim or Alfred wouldn't make it out alive, but I'm glad they did.

  10. #160

    Default Batman SPOILER!

    Just reread all the Death of the Family storyline and have decided to re add it to my pull list! Only thing I was hoping in issue 17 was that at least one of the "family" had truly had their face peeled off. Just really would have added a wrinkle into the Batman Family. Just a thought.

  11. #161
    I'm a male DebkoX's Avatar
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    Maybe but who?
    “The only thing standing between you and your goal is the bullshit story you keep telling yourself as to why you can't achieve it.”

  12. #162
    The Great Curator Mr. Mastermind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DECOMICFAN View Post
    Just reread all the Death of the Family storyline and have decided to re add it to my pull list! Only thing I was hoping in issue 17 was that at least one of the "family" had truly had their face peeled off. Just really would have added a wrinkle into the Batman Family. Just a thought.
    Read Red Hood and the Outlaws #17.

  13. #163
    Senior Member Phelpzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Not_Troller View Post
    Read Red Hood and the Outlaws #17.
    Seconded!!

  14. #164
    B.P.R.D Agent lex1126's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phelpzy View Post
    Seconded!!
    thirded!!! lol

  15. #165
    New Member HeroComplex's Avatar
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    Batman and family didn't think it was wise to check out all personal items that had been handled by the Joker...? Especially things that come in direct contact with skin? Ridiculous.

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