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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by manduck37 View Post
    That all depends really. Is what OSC standing up for really in any danger? Does it need protecting? There is a fine line between standing up for what you believe in and bullying someone to believe what you do. Tradional marriage isn't in any danger. No one is threatening to change it in any way or take it away from us. So what needs defending? OSC and everyone he's ever known are perfectly free to have a "tradional marriage". They can fully enjoy all aspects of marriage and no one is seeking to change that. I've found that most groups who try to force their beliefs on you take a stance of "defending" us from some non-existent problem. Like the KKK trying to protect white women from the beastial black man or some such nonsense. No one asked them to defend marriage. Marriage isn't in any danger. It's just a scare tactic to get people to think like they do.
    I think debates should have a "no KKK rule" alongside the "no Hitler" rule.............

    Everyone with any belief in anything want other people to think like they do. That's just the nature of thinking you're in the right.

    Any organised group, whether it's right or left in sensibility, tries to force its point of view on others. That's the whole point of debate. If there's no debate, and no two groups on either side, nothing would ever get decided on!

  2. #107
    Junior Member toddx77's Avatar
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    I am going to buy it. I have many reasons actually with the first and legit reasons being I am enjoying the other digital firsts DC is putting out and I like Superman. Other, probably selfish reasons are I know it is going to make a lot of political people mad and I love to make political people mad. I know it is kind of a sick thing to do, but I do not like political people (politicals as i call them) because they have kind of screwed me over in life and have caused me problems. That's why I voted for McCain in 2008. I needed the extra credit in school and I just wanted to tell people I didn't vote for Obama, the popular chosen one, but instead the other guy lol. Also the fact everyone is making a big deal out of it has made me want to see what the book is all about in the first place.

    As for Cards extreme views, ya they may be messed up, but in the end I don't think it matters much. Ya I know people don't want their money to go to a guy who wants to force his view of marriage on everyone and make it the law, but by that logic you shouldn't buy anything from anyone you don't agree with. All politics is that, forcing your beliefs on people and making it law. Not everyone believes abortion, raising taxes, border control, war, etc but the politicians force their beliefs on us. Look at New York and its ban on big soda cups. That was Bloomberg forcing his beliefs on the people of New York. Card is not a politician but to me it is the same thing. The only difference is I don't think there is reason to really fear Card and NOM because most people do not seem to have a problem with gays and gay marriage as much as they used to. Honestly people like Card and NOM just comes off as just a bunch of religious nuts who no one is going to take seriously and many of the people who support them are dying of old age and many new people who support gay marriage are younger so just give it a few years.

  3. #108
    Senior Member manduck37's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by idlewildered View Post
    I think debates should have a "no KKK rule" alongside the "no Hitler" rule.............

    Everyone with any belief in anything want other people to think like they do. That's just the nature of thinking you're in the right.

    Any organised group, whether it's right or left in sensibility, tries to force its point of view on others. That's the whole point of debate. If there's no debate, and no two groups on either side, nothing would ever get decided on!
    Just using an actual example from history with A Birth of a Nation. That was a propaganda film for the KKK showing how they would "save us". KKK references may be a bit overused, but in this case it applied to the argument I was making about the "defending" point of view. It's not really in the spirit of debate. It's in the spirit of manipulation. Debate isn't about forcing views, it's discussion. In the case of NOM, they weren't engaging in debate. They didn't hear any opposing arguments and counter with their points. They simply took action to impose their views. I don't recall anyone from NOM asking me my opinion. I don't recall anyone from NOM offering up a debate for opposing viewpoints. That's the point. No discussion, no debate, just action. That's something I have a problem with.

    Does everyone who thinks they are right want others to think as they do. Sure, that's the nature of thinking you're right. However, everyone learns at some point in their life that they are wrong about something. That's the nature of learning. We can go from thinking we're right to learning we aren't and changing to improve. We can do that with dicussion, not just springing into action without asking anyone. Perhaps if we could discuss with NOM that gay marriage isn't a threat to their views of tradional marriage, we could avoid this whole mess. I don't see any memeber of NOM willing to discuss it though.

    As an aside, I just want to thank you for being polite with your posts. I realize this is an emotional subject with a lot hard opinions. I've found your responses to be respectful and well thought out. Considering how heated this discussion has been, I just wanted to point out that your efforts are appreciated. So in the spirit of good debate, thanks.

  4. #109
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    Im buying it to be a troll XD

  5. #110
    Professional Scalliwag thehod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by idlewildered View Post
    I think debates should have a "no KKK rule" alongside the "no Hitler" rule.............

    Everyone with any belief in anything want other people to think like they do. That's just the nature of thinking you're in the right.

    Any organised group, whether it's right or left in sensibility, tries to force its point of view on others. That's the whole point of debate. If there's no debate, and no two groups on either side, nothing would ever get decided on!
    Except NOM use misinformation and lies in order to influence public opinion. That's partly the issue people have with them. There is literally no justifiable reason for limiting rights for gays, so they use spurious data and outright falsehoods to "debate" their point and present their case. And as a result real people suffer real hardship and discrimination.
    The Hod: Novelist, raconteur and celebrated sexual athlete.

  6. #111
    Petite Canaille OldSchoolfan's Avatar
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    Default Ummm...you still don't see the inconsistancy?

    Quote Originally Posted by thehod View Post
    And as a result real people suffer real hardship and discrimination.
    You mean guys like Orson Scott Card, who can't write a Superman comic without being villified by people who don't agree with him?
    If the shoe fits: "a crankly old man standing just on the edge of a crowd gathered for a concert and stamping his feet yelling at the crowd to stop having fun, that they don't know what fun is."

  7. #112
    Senior Member Apathy Lad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSchoolfan View Post
    You mean guys like Orson Scott Card, who can't write a Superman comic without being villified by people who don't agree with him?
    I assume he was referring to all the LGBT men and women who are treated like second class citizens because of people like Orson Scott Card.
    "but the 616 is set in America."

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  8. #113

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    (Deep breathe)

    I think I've decided to read the comics by Card, out of curiosity more than anything else. I confess I am intrigued to see what kind of story he will tell. Maybe I'm even more intrigued because of the recent controversy (maybe there really is no such thing as bad publicity ...)

    As I said earlier, I do not agree with his politics. Then I considered this: I don't agree with Frank Miller's politics but I still enjoy reading his comics; I don't agree with Walt Disney's politics but I still enjoy watching his cartoons; I also don't agree with FT Marinetti's politics but I enjoy reading his poetry and manifestos.

    I guess there will always be artists (and people in general) who have controversial (and, yes, sometimes outright prejudiced views of the world) and one can often feel somewhat torn when faced with certain dilemmas ... (gotta stop myself from rambling)

    All I know, is I have a genuine passion for art (whether it be comics, literature, film, music, etc) and I try my best not to allow my own politics to corrupt my enjoyment of art.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehod View Post
    Except NOM use misinformation and lies in order to influence public opinion. That's partly the issue people have with them. There is literally no justifiable reason for limiting rights for gays, so they use spurious data and outright falsehoods to "debate" their point and present their case. And as a result real people suffer real hardship and discrimination.
    Let them. The benefit of organisations using falsehoods to make their point is that ultimately these things will be seen through.

    From what I've read over the last few weeks, being unaware of NOM properly, I thought it worth reading up if I was going to debate this at all, I can see that they're getting hammered left, right and centre in the courts when they've gone that route. I certainly wouldn't say by any stretch of the imagination that NOM are winning at this point.

    The problem with an organisation like that is that the people with them/listening to them are most likely coming from a religious standpoint. They don't care about data, they don't care about falsehoods. They believe wholeheartedly because of their faith. Before I get jumped on, I'm not suggesting all people with faith are like that.

    It remains just the other side of a debate, which they will ultimately lose. Western society continues to evolve and embrace the new idea, it will happen for the LGBT community too in time. They need more people fighting their cause, and it's awesome to see how passionate people on here are, if everyone posting was actively involved it would be unbelievable!

    People like Card and his ilk are relics of the past and they will lose over time, but I just can't bring myself to boycott because they don't think the way I do.

  10. #115
    Petite Canaille OldSchoolfan's Avatar
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    Default Again with the inconsistency....

    Quote Originally Posted by Apathy Lad View Post
    I assume he was referring to all the LGBT men and women who are treated like second class citizens because of people like Orson Scott Card.
    So the solution is to show the same level of intolerance?
    If the shoe fits: "a crankly old man standing just on the edge of a crowd gathered for a concert and stamping his feet yelling at the crowd to stop having fun, that they don't know what fun is."

  11. #116
    Elder Member Froggy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kymeric View Post
    Im buying it to be a troll XD
    What's the point of trolling IRL?
    they label me a villain cause of how I express my feelings

  12. #117
    All Caste Warrior JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    I'll be buying it in print when it comes out and would have done so in any case. I've been enjoying the other digital first series that I've been reading and I'm hoping to enjoy this one as well. As much as I've been enjoying the N52 titles I'm reading it makes a nice change to have some titles that aren't set in the N52.
    Characters come and go, revamped and revisited. But as long as you enjoyed them, remember them and continue to appreciate them, then that character, your hero or heroine, will always exist.

  13. #118
    Veteran Member The Beast Of Yucca Flats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Froggy View Post
    What's the point of trolling IRL?
    What's the point of it here?

    Have you at any time been a member of......?
    You really, really need to get over yourself.
    Last edited by The Beast Of Yucca Flats; 02-21-2013 at 11:23 AM.

  14. #119
    Elder Member The Batman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldSchoolfan View Post
    So the solution is to show the same level of intolerance?

    Is it intolerance to speak against an unjust act?

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidgrantlloyd View Post
    As I said earlier, I do not agree with his politics. Then I considered this: I don't agree with Frank Miller's politics but I still enjoy reading his comics; I don't agree with Walt Disney's politics but I still enjoy watching his cartoons; I also don't agree with FT Marinetti's politics but I enjoy reading his poetry and manifestos.
    Marinetti and Disney are dead and Miller isn't on a board to make his politics to become facts. The reason why people protest this is because he's trying to ban gay marriage and adoption not because he says dumb stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldSchoolfan View Post
    So the solution is to show the same level of intolerance?
    We are not showing the same level of intolerance and showing intolerance towards Hitler worked out pretty well.

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