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  1. #16
    Junior Member batalia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewart48 View Post
    Superhero Comics stretch the imaginations of the impossible beyond belief. When a favorite character passes on, we often wait for their inevitable return in anticipation or anger. The return of our favorite characters often happen due to circumstances that would cause our eyes to roll further than we ever thought possible into the back of our heads, but superhero comics create a world where we full embrace absurdity of the situation. Clearly death is not an obstacle, but there are some things characters may never overcome.

    I love nearly everything about batman and the dynamics in his relationships and love interests are no exception. I love his relationship with Catwoman and I have loved in years long past his relationship with Talia. I loved this dynamic a bit more than the dynamic with Catwoman. I love redemption stories, I love stories where people overcome the life that was given to them, and someone like Talia overcoming her upbringing to do good always rang with me, it was a huge underdog story, and working with the disenfranchised I found it incredibly appealing because it put on a much larger scale, as superhuman comics often do, the struggles of going against your upbringing. Many in the realworld sometimes find this impossible, but Talia’s story always had a glimmer of hope. The events of Batman Inc of completely removed that hope, and have made Talia an irredeemable character and it tears me up inside because I loved the dynamic so much between her and Bruce.

    Talia offered a dynamic that Catwoman didn’t have; while the modern Catwoman has been a thief with a conscience, Talia was the loyal daughter of an international Terrorist an upbringing that does not bode well if your placing bets on humanitarian of the year. Despite coming from two different moral backgrounds there was a genuine affection and respect that went beyond attraction between the two. Batman saw good in Talia and while Talia played up her role as a villain she also played up to her ability to do good.

    There is an innate underlying tension between the two though that I loved about the relationship that is not found in Batman’s relationship with Catwoman, with catwoman her loyalties are to herself and batman, with Talia they were torn between Batman and her Father. A dynamic that can be found in real relationships throughout history, just rarely with the fate of millions in the balance. The tension could only last for so long for readers as Talia would too often help Batman and Betray her father. While Talia had a history of following her father’s orders she has also aided the JLA in stopping her father and helped Superman take down Lex Luther while she was running Lexcorp on top of helping bats in the past. The status quo needs to change so here comes Death and the Maidens.

    I always looked at Death and the Maidens as an unfinished story. At the end of it Batman loses, on all counts. Talia is brainwashed by her sister, kills her father, and renounces her Love for Batman with Batman tragically never knowing she was brainwashed. This story still left me with a lot of hope for Batman and Talia’s dynamic to spark up again, but as Nyssa’s story is played out its never addressed again.
    I had hopes when Grant Morrison came on to Batman and we were introduced to Damien Wayne. Many of the atrocious acts Talia committed throughout much of Grant’s early run could still be attributed to Death of the Maidens in my mind but the events that have transpired in the latest volume of Batman Inc have dashed that idea. Talia has brainwashed a child army and cold heartedly killed people with no real reason other than to hurt batman and destroy him. Also Morrison’s life history of Talia never referenced Death of the Maidens and Implied she was always as insane or evil as her father. This is evil on a level that was never seen prior to Death and the Maidens with the character. I remember in a JLA story where Talia became upset with her father that he used her in an assassination plot, this is a long way from that Talia.

    I called this a funeral of A Bruch/Talia Shipper because it pains me that after Morrison’s run we can never look at Talia as a redeemable character and now so soon after a reboot could never see her as a viable love interest again. Yes we have Damien Wayne who I believe will survive, but I can’t help but think of the potential of future stories where Damien would have been tempted between two parent’s that loved him or a story where Talia could be a romantic figure again with Damien still in the picture, but sadly those stories can’t happen because I cannot say I am a fan of the Bruce/Talia relationship when she is at Hitler levels of Evil and we can’t blame it on the Brainwashing.

    What happened to the Bruce/Talia Dynamic is worse than death for someone who was a fan of that dynamic. Dead comicbook characters come back, but a relationship with batman cannot recover from mass murder, trying to kill your son, cloning Batman’s son and using said clone to kill Batman, and Brainwash children into killing cops. This is worse than death. Dead characters come back, this is something this dynamic can’t recover from and for me it stinks. Because what Morrison has done is told me the entire character was a psycho that planned on ruling the world all along and I can’t even read past stories with fondness

    As a whole when it comes to Batman continuity this story makes little sense from Talia’s character perspective but in the confines of Grant Morrison’s history it works. With the exception of Hammering how evil Talia is, it is a well written story. But I can’t enjoy it because of the hope I had we would see another Batman Talia Romance in the Future and now it will never happen. Talia isn’t as popular as Magneto to be able to recover from something like this.

    I miss the days where comics had hope for a brighter future. This series is ending where even if Damien Wayne lives there is no Happy ending, because the villain is a woman who was one of Batman’s great love interest and Damien’s mother. The story ends with a kid being rejected by his mom and the reveal she had always been evil and it really sucks for me this comic no matter what ends on a bad note, with no chance for redemption part of what drew me so much to the Talia Dynamic in the first place.

    I’ve always been fascinated with the side characters because we know batman will survive, and I always had hope Talia would rebound from Death and the maidens but I can’t continue to be a shipper for a relationship with hitler because there is no chance of redemption, this is worse than a character death, Death means their is hope for a return in comics, but is that true when a character becomes Hitler? Writers and Editors can write about a man who can fly, resurrection, mortals beating Gods, and Batman ultimately defeating Leviathan; but the idea that anyone can be redeemed and overcome evil in their hearts? That is something no writer or editor feels they can do or fans will allow. I haven’t read my last batman comic, but I have read my last issue of batman inc because hope is missing in this comic, why read a story when hope is lost and I have to accept Batman and Damien had lost from the beginning.

    I hope there could be a comicbook way to explain away what happened with Talia and would like to see a great Batman/Talia Love dynamic in the future, but in regards of that happening in the pages of main bat books, I might as well believe the Red Skull will fight to end genocide and prejudice and that feels pretty sick. I can't root for Hitler Just no way. You Suck DC this is way worse than a character death, no one can survive a rebranding like this.
    I agree with you on Talia. What Morrison is doing to the character sucks but I disagree with you that it can't be changed. Morrison's Talia is not written in stone. This is the comic world where recon happens all the time. DC can and should recon Morrison's Talia in the not too distance future. My views on Talia is not going to change based on Morrison mischaracterization of her. I love Talia. I see her as a complex character. The dynamic potential between Ras, her, Batman and Damian are amazing to me and I was hoping Morrison would play on that. I see them as dark (Ras), dark grey (Talia), light grey (Damian) and white (Batman). Hopefully, someone in DC will see the potential and the rich story that can come from that. In the mean time, I have my head canon of them.

  2. #17
    Elder Member Jeff Brady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stk View Post
    I'd love to attend a mass funeral for ALL "shippers".
    And for anyone who uses the term without irony.
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  3. #18

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    I always liked Talia like everyone said when she was the wildcard. It is no fun if she is evil, I still remember Tomasi's Run? of Nightwing where she had some interaction with the Bat Family without you know kind of being psycho...well some what.

    She'll be back. Although I preferred Silver St.Cloud and Julie Madison as a romantic foil to Bats, Talia is a better character and yeah I don't like how Morrison has written her. Anyway it's comics she will be back.

  4. #19
    Mattress Tester T Hedge Coke's Avatar
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    The idea that Talia is guilty and evil simply by being complicit and benefitting from her father's massive crime empire is, to me, being disingenuous. Since she's been running her own show - which has been going on far longer than Morrison's storyline - she's been absolutely guilty. This idea that she was a wayward child caught up in the troubles of others is stupid. She's a grown woman. She's highly educated. She has many many opportunities in life. And she's continually indulged in the benefits and perks of murder, slavery, torture, kidnapping, terrorism, theft, and coercion by force.

    Yes, we're seeing more heroic characters, now, finally stop giving her the benefit of the doubt, but she abused that benefit before, why should they continue to presume she has some secret "good" motive or continue to act as if she's some sort of woman-child they want to protect and lay?

  5. #20
    Senior Member darkseidpwns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgiannantoni05 View Post
    I really respect this, that you can separate the story in Grant's context from your opinion on her drastic change in character.

    I sympathize some. Only, I mean only, Grant Morrison could have sold me on this direction for Talia.


    The only other thing I'd say is that Grant isn't exactly alone in the darkening of Talia Al Ghul. See Chuck Dixon. If you read Bane of the Demon and certain other 90s/00s stories, Talia had League members commit suicide. Talia helped her father in Legacy, which killed untold many. Villains United. She had racked up some dark credits.

    Here are some Talia quotes/actions from Dixon's Bane of the Demon (prelude to Legacy):
    -Talia, after leading a murderous raid, smiling to LoA member: "His second wish was that all within this building be slain. Every living thing within these walls."
    -Bane remarks that all the LoA members could not board the heli to escape, Talia: "We were all not meant to escape! For the glory of my father! For the will of the immortal! [5 League members leap off the building to their death]
    Dont forget "father he spoke to me in a familiar way,KILL HIM".

  6. #21
    Senior Member ceroxide's Avatar
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    I'm a "shipper" sort to speak of and as much as I love Batman I don't really think he would go for Talia. Now I agree with you Batman & Talia are by far the best possible outcome for a interesting love interest but the truth is when it comes to Batman, we should ALL ship Batman & Gotham City, honestly the only reason any of these girls manage to get close to him is because they continue to operate in Gotham and Bruce is head over heels crazy in love with the damn city!

    which also helps with the whole, "Batman beats up mentally challenged patients" well... true but Batman himself is in love with an artificial object/idea so he's as crazy as the rest of 'em

  7. #22
    Senior Member jgiannantoni05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkseidpwns View Post
    Dont forget "father he spoke to me in a familiar way,KILL HIM".
    Yea, it really can be argued Chuck Dixon made Talia irredeemable, and that Morrison stayed consistent with that.

    I still favor Selina as Bruce's main love interest. (though not this ruined new 52 Catwoman)

    So, with all of that as my context, I can see where Damian is and should be "final straw" in the perhaps overdue end to the Bruce/Talia on again/off again.
    DC discarded their history, and now has none. DC will always be in the shadows of their past work.

  8. #23
    Glitter and Gold AlfredIslas's Avatar
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    Personally, I've heard a lot of praise for Batman Incorporated by Grant Morrison and I just don't get it. Don't even have to be a fan of Talia or even read any comic outside of Batman Incorporated to know that her character has be assassinated. It's a shame :-/

  9. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by vampiric_cannibal View Post
    Never go to the X-Boards. They will tear you up and spit you out for not supporting anything but Rogneto. Rogneto sucks and everyone knows it.
    What the hell are you talking about and how is it relevant to Batman/Talia?

    Quote Originally Posted by sidekick77 View Post
    Well OP, all I can say is this: Hal Jordan was insane, a mass murderer, and a villain. Until the day he suddenly wasn't. There may be hope yet for you.
    I concur. I'm not really a fan of them together tbh, but this is comics. There's no way that Talia/Batman are done.
    You're superior to pryde in my eyes -tlp

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  10. #25
    Blue Boba ABH-1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stk View Post
    Yeah, I like Morrison's Batman, but hate his Talia.
    This. I was just re-reading Son of the Demon, recently, and was reminded how much I used to really like Talia.
    DC: Action Comics - Detective Comics - Batman and... - Batman - Justice League
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  11. #26
    Senior Member stewart48's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Hedge Coke View Post
    The idea that Talia is guilty and evil simply by being complicit and benefitting from her father's massive crime empire is, to me, being disingenuous. Since she's been running her own show - which has been going on far longer than Morrison's storyline - she's been absolutely guilty. This idea that she was a wayward child caught up in the troubles of others is stupid. She's a grown woman. She's highly educated. She has many many opportunities in life. And she's continually indulged in the benefits and perks of murder, slavery, torture, kidnapping, terrorism, theft, and coercion by force.

    Yes, we're seeing more heroic characters, now, finally stop giving her the benefit of the doubt, but she abused that benefit before, why should they continue to presume she has some secret "good" motive or continue to act as if she's some sort of woman-child they want to protect and lay?
    The potential of the dynamic though was there was enough ambiguity to where you could see her turning on Batman or her Father, and the idea that she could possibly turn towards or away from evil. Also the fact that Batman had such strong Moral convictions where Talia was a darker shade of grey than catwoman was always intriguing. The fact that she would even follow through on betraying her father and his ideals teased there was a possibility for the character to move away from Ra's. It was not about her being an angel or a demon, but about the more complicated relationship.

    Morrison laid out a backstory that sets up a complex character history, that then morphs into an evil for the sake of evil character who is just a spoiled brat. The dynamic between the characters just becomes black and white because the ultimate goal of the story is not to advance character for either batman or Talia, it just sets up another Rube Goldberg scenario to win. Even for Damien all these character dynamics seem pretty black and white. He's developed a moral appittude he knows he finds out his mother considers him replaceable, he is replaced. Morrison can set up interesting twist to how this Rube Goldberg plot leads to batman's win, but at the end of the story your left with a generic evil villain. Writers can play up the mother aspect but how believable is that conflict given all thats happened. Wouldn't be surprised it Talia dies at the end of this, with some tear jerking Damien moment about his mother dying even though she was evil.
    BAD TOUCHSCREEN TYPER

  12. #27
    Senior Member stewart48's Avatar
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    Nail in the Coffin.

    Its a great story, but Ra's and Talia should be taken off the board until the next reboot in 20 years. I love the classic triangle of Ra's, Talia, and Batman, but no way can you make a character redeemable all the blatant killings with no real motivation other than a woman scorned and thirst for power, and after listening to her son plead for and end to the madness while dying, doesn't matter how many tears she sheds at the end.

    With only a few issues left to go, not sure I'm going to enjoy whats left, just too burned out on tragic stories where essentially batman loses. Even in saving gotham he has lost.
    BAD TOUCHSCREEN TYPER

  13. #28
    Senior Member jgiannantoni05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stewart48 View Post
    Nail in the Coffin.

    Its a great story, but Ra's and Talia should be taken off the board until the next reboot in 20 years. I love the classic triangle of Ra's, Talia, and Batman, but no way can you make a character redeemable all the blatant killings with no real motivation other than a woman scorned and thirst for power, and after listening to her son plead for and end to the madness while dying, doesn't matter how many tears she sheds at the end.
    On Ra's & Talia should be taken off the board, I disagree. Ra's has to always stay a major villain. Talia...she is a bit similar to Ra's now, so she can bear to see less appearances perhaps, unless a clever writer can carve her a new niche different than Ra's' niche.

    On Talia's redeemability, yes, she's not redeemable anymore. That part is over for her. But I still will say & say again that Dixon already put her there back in the 90s with Bane of Demon/Contagion/Legacy. I loved the classic triangle, we got many good and great stories out of it, but writers increasingly took Talia to dark directions and progressed her character for better or worse (and now look how Nolan used her).
    DC discarded their history, and now has none. DC will always be in the shadows of their past work.

  14. #29
    Mattress Tester T Hedge Coke's Avatar
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    As far as that will she/won't she?: We had how many decades of those stories? While she just got progressively evil and spitting in the face of good every time it didn't immediately benefit her more than crime and cruelty? Before Morrison even got to her? How much "will she?" rope are we, as readers, or Batman as a person, supposed to give Talia before we acknowledge she's just going to hang someone with it?

  15. #30
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    There are still some options available if a writer wanted to redeem her, after all it is a storyline containing brainwashing and clones.

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