"Jack Kirby Jabs at Stan Lee" & More Meta-Messages

**CBR News** · 02-10-2013, 07:58 AM

Comic book writers often use their characters to comment on the work of their peers. CSBG collects these "meta-messages," including Jack Kirby's thinly veiled satire of Stan Lee and Roy Thomas in "Fourth World."

Full article here.

**Darrell D.** · 02-10-2013, 08:52 AM

Kirby's Funky Flashman and HouseRoy was hilarious and dead on target.

**Spike-X** · 02-10-2013, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Darrell D.

Kirby's Funky Flashman and HouseRoy was hilarious and dead on target.

I'd read about them in passing, but never realised it was quite so vicious. Damn, Jack, tell us how you really feel!

**Froggy** · 02-10-2013, 03:10 PM

when I read those mr miracle issues in the JKFW omnibus, I was wondering what Roy did to get Jack to come at him like that

**Spike-X** · 02-10-2013, 05:08 PM

After reading Marvel: The Inside Story, I can't help but think that, while Kirby absolutely had every right to hold a grudge against Marvel the company, and certain individuals within the company, it seems as if he got somewhat carried away with it at times. Claims of being the sole creator of Spider-Man, for instance, don't seem to have any basis in fact whatsoever. Possibly he had others in his ear getting him even more stirred up than he already was? Goodness knows I've have that happen to me enough, about much more trivial things.

**Paradox** · 02-10-2013, 09:57 PM

Froggy has me speculating:

when I read those mr miracle issues in the JKFW omnibus, I was wondering what Roy did to get Jack to come at him like that

Possibly nothing more than being a "company man", which it seems like Roy very much was at the time. That fits in with the "house boy" characterization, as well.

**Shikidum** · 02-11-2013, 01:38 AM

Timthy Zahn did domething like this with acharacter called Jor'j Cardas.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jorj_Car%27das

Click image for larger version.

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**Darrell D.** · 02-11-2013, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by Spike-X

After reading Marvel: The Inside Story, I can't help but think that, while Kirby absolutely had every right to hold a grudge against Marvel the company, and certain individuals within the company, it seems as if he got somewhat carried away with it at times. Claims of being the sole creator of Spider-Man, for instance, don't seem to have any basis in fact whatsoever. Possibly he had others in his ear getting him even more stirred up than he already was? Goodness knows I've have that happen to me enough, about much more trivial things.

Jack started making the 'spider-man' claims later in life, when he was fairly sick about having to fight for just a modicum of respect from Marvel, and not to mention his artwork.
He made some inflammatory statements, but I will give him a pass, considering the non stop barrage of bullshit carnival huckster statements that Stan got away with..and still does to this day.

**king mob** · 02-11-2013, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Spike-X

After reading Marvel: The Inside Story, I can't help but think that, while Kirby absolutely had every right to hold a grudge against Marvel the company, and certain individuals within the company, it seems as if he got somewhat carried away with it at times. Claims of being the sole creator of Spider-Man, for instance, don't seem to have any basis in fact whatsoever. Possibly he had others in his ear getting him even more stirred up than he already was? Goodness knows I've have that happen to me enough, about much more trivial things.

There's evidence he was involved with Spiderman but Kirby never really seemed to get the character, but yes, I think by the point he was claiming being sole creator he was so fucked off watching other people benefit from his work while he slogged away that he just threw out some spurious claims.

**Paradox** · 02-11-2013, 11:25 AM

As far as I know, Kirby's only involvement was a rejected design (basically knocking off his Fly) and a cover.

**Gothos** · 02-11-2013, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Paradox

As far as I know, Kirby's only involvement was a rejected design (basically knocking off his Fly) and a cover.

One account says that he completed a page or two of artwork, but they've not survived. Jim Shooter claimed somewhere to have seen the page(s), but I wouldn't trust much of anything he said.

**Paradox** · 02-11-2013, 08:03 PM

Even if he did, they were rejected as well. You don't get creator credits for stuff that wasn't used.

**Darrell D.** · 02-12-2013, 05:27 AM

Originally Posted by Paradox

Even if he did, they were rejected as well. You don't get creator credits for stuff that wasn't used.

Unlike Stan, who got creator credits for shit he didn't create.
Like I said, I give Jack a pass on it.

**Gothos** · 02-12-2013, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by Paradox

Even if he did, they were rejected as well. You don't get creator credits for stuff that wasn't used.

No creator credits, no. However, the history of his participation was used as a legal point in the recent case in which Kirby's heirs claimed that he was the original creator of the Spider-Man concept. The court eventually sided with Stan's version of events, however.

I tend to think that lawyer Toberoff weakened his case by claiming Spider-Man for Kirby. Maybe the verdict would've been no different had he stuck with full-fledged Lee-Kirby collaborative efforts, but I think it would have carried greater appeal. However, I'm aware that some argued that Kirby contributed "intellectual property" to the Spider-Man idea, though there are some indications that it may have been a recycling of a concept Kirby himself did not originate.