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  1. #271
    Blue Boba ABH-1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adam.walters View Post
    Not supporting the guy, but hating a guy for having different beliefs is kind of like hating a guy for having different beliefs.
    I think there is something to be said for the genesis of this hate, though.

    If OSC hates gays, then I can hate him for feeling that way. If he didn't hate gays, then I'd have zero reason to hate him. I'm not trying to stop him from voicing his opinion, but I can voice my opinion of his to those that would do business with him. Once again, he has the right to believe what he believes, and each of us have the right to our opinion on that very belief.

    I know some have taken exception to the word "hate" being used in this thread, but when OSC is saying that a group of people don't deserve the same rights as straight people, well, I don't know how that can be anything but hate.
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  2. #272
    Senior Member gwydion's Avatar
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    You know, this is a very old issue. There's still debate as to whether for example Wagner operas should be performed in Israel. And Mel Gibson probably has lost some fans. As for me and Card, it isn't an issue. I've never read anything he's written, though I've heard about some of it and heard it described as brilliant, (the novels). I also don't currently read any of the Superman titles.

    That said, I echo the thought that as long as he keeps his political views out of his writing, I'm good. I try to avoid political and social screeds in comics, no matter what they are.
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  3. #273
    Imagination and Bravery Double 0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eradicator View Post
    It actually makes tons of sense if you had eyes to see and ears to hear, but I'm not surprised that it didn't make sense to you.

    All those people you listed: Steinem, MLK, Milk, Mandela, etc - did any of those people criticize themselves to the degree that they fought against prejudice? Despite the positive effects they may or may not have created in their respective societies, they did not address the core problems facing the human condition.

    MLK is a good example - he was somewhat of a moral hypocrite, if you actually read into his life. Now, that does not mean he wasn't a good man, but despite his heroic efforts and the good things he helped to bring about, this country still has a race problem (even if we have a black President - look at how the Republicans have treated him). You can legislate laws through state power to coerce people into thinking differently, but that doesn't mean people will automatically being to think differently. That must come from within.

    What America has done is sweep a lot of problems under the rug thinking that they have been solved, when they really haven't, and increasingly, we're going to see the after effects of that.

    Ok, beyond the vast amount of BS that's going around in this thread, I need to address the MLK example. MLK's goal was to improve the lives of all people, primarily African Americans. And he helped make significant progress, but he also shifted towards another goal. He noticed that the unequal distribution of wealth was also a big issue, and sought to fight it.

    That, the poor people's campaign, is what got MLK jr. killed. And if you think James Earl Ray did it, then you missed a pretty important civil case.


    Point is, if you really think that if MLK jr. hadn't been a womanizer (which only really came to light because the FBI was going after him), he would have fixed the "race problem", then you are completely misinformed and/or an idiot. For various sociological, economical, and just plain logical reasons.
    Last edited by Double 0; 02-11-2013 at 10:10 AM.
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  4. #274
    Kryptonian Fascist Eradicator's Avatar
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    That, the poor people's campaign, is what got MLK jr. killed. And if you think James Earl Ray did it, then you missed a pretty important civil case.
    I don't think Earl Ray did it, and I know that the poor issue is why he got killed.


    Point is, if you really think that if MLK jr. hadn't been a womanizer (which only really came to light because the FBI was going after him), he would have fixed the "race problem", then you are completely misinformed and/or an idiot. For various sociological, economical, and just plain logical reasons.
    What a way to twist the argument. I didn't say that he would have solved the race problem if he fixed himself - I was trying to make a different point entirely.
    Last edited by Eradicator; 02-11-2013 at 10:19 AM.

  5. #275
    Imagination and Bravery Double 0's Avatar
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    Oh right, the "core problems" facing the human condition.

    Please, tell us what they are, since all those social activists failed to acknowledge it. Clearly you know something they don't.


    Though you knowing these core problems for some reason still has you believing that non-heterosexuals should be treated as lesser and/or morally lacking. Color me skeptical.
    Last edited by Double 0; 02-11-2013 at 10:21 AM.
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  6. #276
    They call me Mr. Pip! the4thpip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post


    Point is, if you really think that if MLK jr. hadn't been a womanizer (which only really came to light because the FBI was going after him), he would have fixed the "race problem", then you are completely misinformed and/or an idiot.
    My guess is "and".
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  7. #277

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    Instant boycott for me.

  8. #278
    They call me Mr. Pip! the4thpip's Avatar
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    If you have not seen this, Hillary Clinton gave a speech on LGBT rights last year that really made it clear how you can respect religions and still demand equal rights. It is well worth watching from beginning to end, though it is longish:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MudnsExyV78
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  9. #279
    evil maybe, genius no stk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eradicator View Post
    Like I mentioned before, this is a clash of worldviews, of paradigms. For me, this is not a rights issue, because marriage can only be between a man and a woman. Anything else is an abberration. However, that opinion is passe and is widely see as bigoted - that to me, is the real insanity.
    Your sentiment echos those of many other dinosaurs in decades past, whose views we now take for granted as being OBVIOUSLY wrong. Going back even as recently as the 1950s and 1960s, you could find a great many people saying the exact same thing about issues that would hopefully make your skin crawl today. Things we recognize as clearly self-evident now, but had many people of the time as twisted and confused as some are today about this.

  10. #280
    Senior Member chastmastr's Avatar
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    You know, people of various beliefs can still believe something is wrong--or even believe that a union is not a valid marriage in the sight of God--without trying to make it illegal for those who don't follow those beliefs.

    At least by the official theology of the Roman Catholic Church, and some other churches/religions, if one gets a divorce and then gets remarried, the second marriage is not a real marriage in the sight of God. Yet we don't hear (at least these days) about people trying to make divorce or remarriage illegal even if they believe that, even if their own church would not perform the ceremony for a couple that includes a divorced person.

    As C.S. Lewis said, "Before leaving the question of divorce, I should like to distinguish two things which are very often confused. The Christian conception of marriage is one : the other is the quite different question -- how far Christians, if they are voters or Members of Parliament, ought to try to force their views of marriage on the rest of the community by embodying them in the divorce laws. A great many people seem to think that if you are a Christian yourself you should try to make divorce difficult for every one. I do not think that. At least I know I should be very angry if the Mohammedans tried to prevent the rest of us from drinking wine."

    I think this principle could very properly be applied to gay marriage or any other union between consenting adults. At least that's how I view it.

  11. #281
    Senior Member chastmastr's Avatar
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    (duplicate post)

  12. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eradicator View Post
    Talk about hypocrisy here. A lot of posts in this thread have pissed me off, and this one takes the cake. I'm going to be quite frank and open here.

    I am willing to bet if that you, hypothetically, polled all of New York, and other states that have allowed gay marriage, the majority of the population would still be against it. And let's not even mention the rest of the country.
    In 2009, 53% of New Yorkers supported marriage equality, while 39% opposed. This had risen to 58% support, with 36% opposed, by 2011.

    Nationwide, support is at 49% in favour, 40% opposed (as of October 2012), up from 39 percent in favor and 52 percent opposed in 2008.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eradicator View Post
    And yet, gay marriage and acceptance of homosexual behavior HAS BEEN SHOVED DOWN our throats.
    Really? You've been forced to attend the weddings of same-sex couples? You've been made to watch gay people have sex? No. Absolute hogwash. Nobody is making you do a damn thing. Nobody is shoving anything "down your throat" (which is always an interesting choice of wording from people who supposedly hate the idea of gay sex so much).

    Quote Originally Posted by Eradicator View Post
    Gays are like what, 2% of the population
    Between five and ten percent I believe is the most commonly agreed-upon figure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eradicator View Post
    and yet, their way and their lifestyle has become more or less an accepted fact of life, when many people are still not comfortable with it.
    Why do you need to be comfortable with how other people live their lives in order for them to be able to do so? Nobody needs your, my, or anybody else's permission to be who they are, and to be happy in their lives. If seeing other people happy upsets you so much, too damn bad for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eradicator View Post
    There is an agenda at work, and I'm not the only one who thinks that way. Now its in movies, comics, everywhere you look, and it all happened a little too fast.
    Yes, there is an agenda. An agenda to get people like you to leave other people alone so they can live their lives in peace, with full equality under the law. Ooh, sinister! Scary!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eradicator View Post
    Legitimate grievances and concerns are all silenced, and people are just branded left and right as "hate-mongers", when nothing could be further from the truth.
    What is a legitimate concern against people having full equality under the law? Why do people have a grievance about being asked not to discriminate against their fellow human being?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eradicator View Post
    I think homosexuality is wrong. PERIOD.
    Nobody's asking you to participate. You don't like it, don't do it. It's not my thing either, but I'm not going to go around knocking donuts out of your hand just because I'm on a diet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eradicator View Post
    Gay is not the new black, it never has been and it never will be. This is not about rights, this is about right and wrong.
    Yes. It's wrong to deny people equality under the law because of their sexual orientation, just as much as it's wrong to deny them those rights because of skin colour, ethnic background, religion (or lack thereof), or anything else that sets them apart from some imaginary "mainstream".

    Quote Originally Posted by Eradicator View Post
    That may sound old fashioned to many of you, but its because we are losing those old fashioned values that our country is going down the tubes. The gay marriage issue is a symptom of a much larger problem, a problem that permeates gender relations, race relations, our politics, religion/state - I call it the "virus" of political correctness.
    Here we go...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eradicator View Post
    Now, none of this means that I hate gays. I had gay co-workers who knew my opinion on the subject, and we got along fine.
    Because they knew their damn place and didn't try to shove anything down your throat, right? Yeah, I'm sure they tolerated your bigotry through gritted teeth so as not to make waves, because we all know who would've come out on the losing end of that kind of workplace drama.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eradicator View Post
    I honestly don't care what people do behind closed doors
    Really? You seem to have given it an awful lot of though, to have come to the conclusion that it's WRONG WRONG WRONG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eradicator View Post
    but that does not mean I have to accept a certain lifestyle as legitimate.
    Other people's "lifestyles" are...how shall I put this...

    NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eradicator View Post
    I have a right to my opinion, and you can feel free to call me an asshole, a bigot, far rightist (even though I don't even vote Republican!), or whatever have you. But it pisses me off that now, on a regular basis, I have to put up with name calling from hypocritical liberals and gay rights defenders for expressing a very common and legitimate opinion. People can't say anything anymore without some damn lobby coming after them or someone screaming the word bigot. I am sick of it. I am sick and tired of the narcissistic, insecure group of brats that my generation (the "millenials") has become, and quite frankly, this PC bubble that we're enclosing ourselves in is eventually going to burst, and when that happens, IT WON'T BE PRETTY.

    As I said before, Card has a right to his opinion, and people just need to shut the hell up. You don't like the man? Don't buy his work! It's simple as that, but don't stoop low to the point where you try to create petitions and all this other trash to get the man removed from his assignment. THAT is the tactic used by certain groups in this country that is really driving me up a wall, and THAT is intolerance.

    I think all views and opinions, regardless of content, should be allowed. We live in a free society and at least once in your life, you're going to get offended. DEAL WITH IT.
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  13. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Montana View Post
    What rights is that organization trying to remove?

    That is where this argument on gay marraige sticks in my craw. The right to marraige has never been denied. It simply isn't something that a gay person would avail themselves of as they have no interest in the opposite sex. The right however still exists.

    Problem is, it doesn't carry the same weight to argue for a broadening of the definition of marraige to include homosexual couples. Which is what it is.

    But some prefer to take the persecuted tactic and try and make it a civil rights issue, which is the part that gets under my skin. The tactic mind you, not the point that is being advocated. Just strikes me as being disingenuous.
    Are you actually using the "A gay man has the right to marry any woman he wants" argument to try and show that gay people aren't really being discriminated against when it comes to marriage? Are you really doing that?


    Seriously?
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  14. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Montana View Post
    Now your moving the goalposts.

    I asked what rights that organization is calling for to be removed since you argued THAT point.
    The right of same-sex couples in New York State to be married, for one.
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  15. #285
    Veteran Member The Beast Of Yucca Flats's Avatar
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    Card, Eradicator, and the rest of their ilk must lead demonstrably burdened & tragic lives, being on the receiving end of all that oppression.

    'Course, it doesn't require them to, say, do any of that pesky aforementioned 'fixing themselves' shit (cuz thats hard stuff you guys), so hey, they got that going for 'em.
    Last edited by The Beast Of Yucca Flats; 02-11-2013 at 12:53 PM.

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