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  1. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by SayOcean View Post
    Does anyone on this board know what sarcasm is?
    Is it the Avengers being titled as 'heroes'?

  2. #47
    Hex Magic Nemesis@'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by listererik View Post
    The dream is important, because although probably not ever attainable, it is something to strive for. It's a goal that keeps people on a certain path, even if the goal is unattainable, the steps that you take on the path are what is important. Basically, it's the journey, not the destination.

    Also, we're talking about the MU here, and humanity readily accepts Thor, Spider Man, Iron Man, etc, and they can all do some crazy stuff that could destroy cities, as well. So in a real world setting, people could be freaked out by mutants with the abilities to destroy cities, but this isn't the real world, because other people who can do the exact same thing are loved and adored by mankind in general in the fictional setting that is the MU. So if humanity is fearful of mutants, they should fear the Avengers as well. But they don't, and that's where the irrational part comes in. Mutants are hated for their powers because they were born with them, and are eventually a replacement for humans from an evolutionary standpoint, while Avengers and other heroes are loved simply because they attained their powers through other means? It makes no sense.
    Are not you the wrong idea but the example was half bad.

    At various times the Avengers were considered dangerous and monitored. Thor was abused for years by priests who considered an abomination pagan. Spider-Man for many years and perhaps today was criticized by JJJ and consequently by the readers of the newspaper. Iron Man armors lost several times because the government wanted to take dangerous or thought to herself.

    Well, only those examples cited.
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  3. #48
    Junior Member listererik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DATNIGG View Post
    well the thing about the avengers is, their celebrity's

    There sponsored by the government, There led by Captain america Americas first hero & hero of world war 2, a millionaire playboy in an iron suit, and a God thats been worshiped for years and is noted in mythology... and all they do is save people save the world, the cops listen to them, sheild works with them, the media reports stuff on em all the time, they live in a gaint tower in NY of course the people love them....

    most mutants are just regular people with freak powers, they don't dress up as heros there just regular people with crazy powers... they aren't celebs they aren't popular their just regular freaks.... now combine that with there weird, random powers & their weird random appearances.... you can easily see why they except the avengers but not mutants...

    if you see a cop with a gun you think nothing of it but if you see a 13 year old with an ak 47 just walking around its odd.... same with the marvel

    your a famous or certified freak? cool... your a regular freak? Sentential time
    Here's the problem with that argument, though. The X-Men's stated mission is to protect a world that fears and hates them. Key word being Protect. How is that any different than the Avengers?

    Here's the thing, too. Spider Man wasn't always an Avenger (and most of NYC loves him aside from JJJ). Neither was Daredevil, Luke Cage, etc., until recently. The government seems to "like" these people because they are normal, and what is a government besides a representation of its people (at least in a democracy it's supposed to be)? So basically, by electing the government they do, the people of the MU are basically complicit with building robots to destroy mutants for the simple reason that they have a power that might or might not be used in a harmful way.

    Also, I don't agree with the Cop/kid with an AK analogy. Many people don't trust Cops (ask anyone of a different color how they feel about most police in the U.S.), and even when people do trust them and like them, they appreciate them for the job they do. The X-Men, in this case, are out to do the same exact job. They are not young kids with AK's-they are mutants who train to do the exact same job as a police officer does. Also, their goal is to take in mutants to help them to control their powers. So if you are a mutant in the MU, you do have an option in the JG school, and before that, Xavier's institute. I mean, if I were a human living in the MU, I would actually be very happy that there was a place where mutants could go to learn about the responsibilities inherent with being born the way they were, not supportive of a government that simply looks to kill them and turn the rest into extremists.

    So yeah, my Avengers analogy still stands. Also, remember the Avengers have Hulk, and that guy goes nuts every 2 seconds, and Wanda, who is a bat-crap crazy lunatic who could probably wipe out humanity if she felt like it. So just because something is supported by the government, while something else is not, doesn't mean that I would view them differently, and I would assume that it's this way with some of the more progressive humans in the MU as well. So yeah, I basically think that Xavier's dream can not work because of humans in the MU, not mutants. Just like some idiots in the U.S. view non-white people as inferior and would rather have them killed/expelled back to their country of origin, so to do some humans in the MU hate mutants.
    Last edited by listererik; 02-10-2013 at 10:53 PM.
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  4. #49
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    SO now the Avengers are persecuted and hated too.....Damn Avengers I knew you were Thirsty, but leave SOMETHING for the X-men to have

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Mengsk View Post
    Is it the Avengers being titled as 'heroes'?
    Good example, good example.
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  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_Jerusalem View Post
    Sigh.
    10char.
    THIS!
    "I don't know how to please you Lord, but I think the fact I try to please you, pleases you."

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by listererik View Post
    The dream is important, because although probably not ever attainable, it is something to strive for. It's a goal that keeps people on a certain path, even if the goal is unattainable, the steps that you take on the path are what is important. Basically, it's the journey, not the destination.

    Also, we're talking about the MU here, and humanity readily accepts Thor, Spider Man, Iron Man, etc, and they can all do some crazy stuff that could destroy cities, as well. So in a real world setting, people could be freaked out by mutants with the abilities to destroy cities, but this isn't the real world, because other people who can do the exact same thing are loved and adored by mankind in general in the fictional setting that is the MU. So if humanity is fearful of mutants, they should fear the Avengers as well. But they don't, and that's where the irrational part comes in. Mutants are hated for their powers because they were born with them, and are eventually a replacement for humans from an evolutionary standpoint, while Avengers and other heroes are loved simply because they attained their powers through other means? It makes no sense.
    That's one of the major problems with the X-men existing in the shared Marvel Universe.

  8. #53

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    This is an interesting question to ask and a hard one to answer. I don't think either mutants or humans are responsible for killing Xavier's dream because I don't think the dream is dead. If it were, then both Cyclops and Wolverine wouldn't still be fighting for it. The dream itself was pretty redundant for most of the post M-Day era of X-men because living in peace really didn't mean much when the species was going extinct. But now that this is no longer the case, I think the dream is still alive again. And it even resonates to some humans, as indicated in All New X-men. But I think both sides have done the dream a disservice with their actions. Cable's attacks in Cable and X-Force certainly don't help the cause and throwing sentinels at mutants doesn't help either. So in a ways both sides are responsible, but despite their actions I think the dream is still alive on some levels.
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  9. #54
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    I think a major problem with the 'dream' is that, long-term, its impossible to believe there will be absolute harmony between humans and mutants ever. At most, you can have a situation where governments stop officially discriminating against mutants and sanctioning the incarceration/elimination of mutants, and where mutants are allowed to access their civil liberties and be treated as people by the law. But even in such a situation, there would be tensions, and you would inevitably have extremists on both sides periodically sparking off trouble. And then, there are the unavoidable accidents and disasters that occur due to mutants losing control of their powers...even if the authorities are now 'fair' and 'mutant-friendly', at most the mutant responsible would be legally exonerated. That does NOTHING to stem the flood of anti-mutant hysteria that would inevitably follow...and honestly, up to a point, the terrified anti-mutant activists would have a justification for their cause.

    People have always had trouble accepting someone who is off a different color, a different race or religion...or even one with a different ideology. Would humanity at large accept people who are, scientifically speaking, 'superior' to them in one way or the other? And to what extent would mutants allow themselves to be confined to the laws and practices of a society dominated by people who, scientifically speaking, and perception-wise, may be considered 'inferior' to them?

  10. #55
    Senior Member Maestro's Avatar
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    I say Cyclops killed the dream. It is 100% Cyclops' fault!!

  11. #56
    Go take a chill pill ProfeZZor X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maestro View Post
    I say Cyclops killed the dream. It is 100% Cyclops' fault!!
    Then what do the X-Men stand for, if they can't all agree on one man's dream? ...What is their purpose and drive?

    To ensure the survival of their kind? They've already been doing that for years. I just think the method to their madness is just getting lost in translation.

  12. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by listererik View Post
    Here's the problem with that argument, though. The X-Men's stated mission is to protect a world that fears and hates them. Key word being Protect. How is that any different than the Avengers?

    Here's the thing, too. Spider Man wasn't always an Avenger (and most of NYC loves him aside from JJJ). Neither was Daredevil, Luke Cage, etc., until recently. The government seems to "like" these people because they are normal, and what is a government besides a representation of its people (at least in a democracy it's supposed to be)? So basically, by electing the government they do, the people of the MU are basically complicit with building robots to destroy mutants for the simple reason that they have a power that might or might not be used in a harmful way.

    Also, I don't agree with the Cop/kid with an AK analogy. Many people don't trust Cops (ask anyone of a different color how they feel about most police in the U.S.), and even when people do trust them and like them, they appreciate them for the job they do. The X-Men, in this case, are out to do the same exact job. They are not young kids with AK's-they are mutants who train to do the exact same job as a police officer does. Also, their goal is to take in mutants to help them to control their powers. So if you are a mutant in the MU, you do have an option in the JG school, and before that, Xavier's institute. I mean, if I were a human living in the MU, I would actually be very happy that there was a place where mutants could go to learn about the responsibilities inherent with being born the way they were, not supportive of a government that simply looks to kill them and turn the rest into extremists.

    So yeah, my Avengers analogy still stands. Also, remember the Avengers have Hulk, and that guy goes nuts every 2 seconds, and Wanda, who is a bat-crap crazy lunatic who could probably wipe out humanity if she felt like it. So just because something is supported by the government, while something else is not, doesn't mean that I would view them differently, and I would assume that it's this way with some of the more progressive humans in the MU as well. So yeah, I basically think that Xavier's dream can not work because of humans in the MU, not mutants. Just like some idiots in the U.S. view non-white people as inferior and would rather have them killed/expelled back to their country of origin, so to do some humans in the MU hate mutants.

    Spiderman had to work to make NY love him because for a long time they hated him and thought of him as a menace, the spiderslayers, ect, I don't think the government cared for anyone of these vigilantes outside of Cap... they gave ironman crap about his suit and weapons as well, but the only thing that has changed since then is that most of these heros aren't vigilantes anymore their in giant teams over seen by the government thus seen as less of threat and more of an asset.

    Most of these people are scientists, Lab experiments gone wrong, but mutants are a race a race of people that in their teens spontaneously pop up with weird/Odd or God like powers.... you can control superhumans cause if you have 6 superhumans thats all theirs gonna be unless you have another failed lab experiment or one of them has a kid, but mutants come from humans... that means anytime anywhere a dangerous mutant Teen could just awaken their is no way to control that.... and the government be it in Marvel U or in real life wants control... its isnt always representation of its people cause mind you, even in real life the general public is oblivious to the things & decisions it makes every day & hides from them. the average person just trusts that its higher ups are doing the right thing.

    I just used the analogy to point something out ( and being from a different color myself Im not crazy about cops either) however you have to look at this from the general public's eyes most of them probably aren't that informed and are simply going off of what they see and how others feel. every other day you see some powered person blowing something up or fighting with each other down town & then you see propaganda about the mutant menace on tv and you don't personally know a mutant what would you believe? when the avengers are seen most of the time their shown in a heroic light & where as the X men even though they do as much good as them aren't publicized in the same manner this has an effect on the average uninformed person.


    And the Avengers are slowly starting to get hate as well, that stunt that Wonderman & Osborn pulled on live tv made sure of that. and people are skeptical of AvX they think it was a conspiracy. and to my knowledge no one knows what wanda did outside of the powered people


    Quote Originally Posted by Maestro View Post
    I say Cyclops killed the dream. It is 100% Cyclops' fault!!
    So.... its Cyclops's fault that people can't be in perfect harmony with each other?

    Tell me.... how would Professor X have made this dream come true without mass mind manipulation?

    Cause lets face it even when he was alive people weren't even close to holding hands with mutants & being in perfect harmony. as I said before humans cant even live in perfect harmony without fighting over some difference they have let alone another race
    Last edited by DATNIGG; 02-11-2013 at 07:45 AM.

  13. #58
    Senior Member Drax1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by imperial90 View Post
    Wow, somebody seriously needs to go back and read Messiah Complex, that detonation was in a potential future decades down the line, not something that happened at her birth. She was already an adult when it occurred in that future. Everyone in that town died because the Purifiers killed everyone there, Hope did literally nothing other then cry like the baby she was. The Purifiers showed up because Bastion told them about her potential future as the Mutant Messiah, it was a pre-emptive strike not a retaliatory one.

    I made no comment on the argument as a whole, just that Hope's birth doesn't fit your argument like, AT ALL. That was good old fashioned hate, prejudice and fear of the future at work.
    Yeah, I messed up on that one. Thank you for correcting me.

  14. #59
    Senior Member Norj's Avatar
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    This is the path mutant kind should take.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norj View Post
    [IMG]Gus Grimm[/IMG]
    This is the path mutant kind should take.
    It's the path X-Factor took.
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