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  1. #226
    14 Time Rita's Champion SUPERECWFAN1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    Hte problem is that it will be handled with Civil Suites not criminal trials.

    Dorner being crazy should not have given cops a hunting license on people in pick-up trucks
    I blame a fear or panic among some of the officers. Dorner fired on a police officer already...he doesn't care to kill ! That fear led to horrible mistakes as we saw. Ones where the cops will face likely action for what they did. You don't fire into innocent peoples vehicles and wound them without some action taken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hound of UIster View Post
    Did that shooter kill policemen or their relatives? I think that is the significant difference there. Once Dorner killed a cop's daughter, her fiance and another cop, there was no way that the police in California would have allowed him to give up peacefully. If he had done what you said, they would have undoubtedly go to extraordinary lengths to carry out an extrajudicial killing and cover it up as an accident or suicide.
    As someone posted earlier when people would claim this as proof , its never happened in the USA. I doubt it would have if Dorner had contacted a lawyer and worked a surrender out.
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  2. #227

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    Dorner being a lunatic has nothing to do with whether the LAPD is corrupt or trigger happy
    I dont know about that, but I will say..a surprising number of white gunmen that shoot cops are arrested and not killed.

    Using surveillance footage, officers traced him to room 209 of the inn where they found him with two others who also had outstanding warrants for their arrests.

    When police handcuffed one of his companions, Barnum started shooting at officers with a gun stolen from one of the homes he'd robbed.

    Police returned fire, striking Barnum in the shoulder. NOTE: even when fired upon the police shot to wound. Not yelling "burn the Muthaf****er down!"





    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-officer.html



    if you are a minority and you shoot at a cop. you can kiss your @$$ goodbye. heck Minorities get shot for moving an arm too fast during a police stop/

    I recall a story in which a black guy was shot 41 times for raising a bible off the passenger seat when a cop pulled him over.
    Last edited by RolandJP; 02-16-2013 at 11:55 PM.
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  3. #228
    Hardcover addict dupont2005's Avatar
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    The police don't shoot to wound and they don't shoot to kill. They shoot to stop. If a bullet strikes him in the shoulder and it stops him, there is no need to finish him off. If the bullet had struck him in the face and blew out the back of the head, which it very likely could have since the shoulder is incredibly close to the face and you obviously have no idea what a pistol fight is like, then that would have been okay too. Notice he did get shot by cops though, Dorner didn't. Also notice, he killed zero people, Dorner killed four. White people have been shot by cops for less.
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  4. #229

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    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post
    As someone posted earlier when people would claim this as proof , its never happened in the USA. I doubt it would have if Dorner had contacted a lawyer and worked a surrender out.
    I wouldn't say "never". in the 230+ year history of the US you could probably find examples. you might even find one within living memory. I'd be surprised if you could find two.
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  5. #230
    I love the 80s! spoon_jenkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dupont2005 View Post
    So what do you propose would have been the right thing to do, have the head of the Union fire someone who had not even been accused of a crime? That's not how unions work.
    The head of the union isn't responsible for firing anyone. Rather, the union is the advocate for the employee in disciplinary hearings run by management. Dorner's supposed reason for killing Ms. Quan, was that his union rep Captain Quan, didn't win his case. And the LAPD (like other employers of unionized employees) is certainly able to impose discipline on employees for misconduct or mistakes short of a crime. As I noted upthread, Briseno and Wind were fired despite being acquitted in both cases. The LAPD made its own determination under its own burden of proof.

    I'm not going to offer a definitive evaluation of Solano. I don't feel I have the knowledge to do that. But I read that some people thought his testimony was inaccurately favorable for his colleagues. I wouldn't be surprised if LAPD had a directive that one should radio to a higher-up if the superior officer on the scene is doing something inappropriate. Dorner got the facts wrong on Solano. That's clear. But totally independent of anything Dorner-related, the Solano situation probably offers room for debate by informed folks.
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  6. #231

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    Quote Originally Posted by dupont2005 View Post
    The police don't shoot to wound and they don't shoot to kill. They shoot to stop. If a bullet strikes him in the shoulder and it stops him, there is no need to finish him off. If the bullet had struck him in the face and blew out the back of the head, which it very likely could have since the shoulder is incredibly close to the face and you obviously have no idea what a pistol fight is like, then that would have been okay too. Notice he did get shot by cops though, Dorner didn't. Also notice, he killed zero people, Dorner killed four. White people have been shot by cops for less.
    Your naivety is quaint.

    By percentage points white cop killers go to jail. Minority cop killers got to cemetery. I cant believe you are even debating me on that one.


    And the cops didnt know if said cop shot in vest was gonna die or not. They shot his shoulder to wound.

    http://www.apa.org/monitor/mar01/jurorbias.aspx

    When race was a leading issue, the defendants were convicted at similar rates. When race was not at the forefront ( excluding when the defense asks jurors to look beyond race), 90 percent of the white jurors chose to convict the black defendant compared with a 70 percent conviction rate for the white defendant. When asked to gauge their confidence in their verdict, the mock jurors revealed they were more prone to harsh judgment of the black defendant when race was not of vital concern. Though the cases were identical, they determined that the defense's arguments on behalf of the white defendant were stronger.


    The results suggest a subtle and problematic inclination towards racism among white jurors that could potentially distort the judicial process. The researchers are also considering whether increasing the diversity of juror members could affect racial bias. "Individual jurors might be less likely to act on prejudicial beliefs when their fellow jurors are not all the same race as they are," Sommers says.

    Wrongful Convictions, Wrongful Bias
    http://www.aclu.org/blog/capital-pun...-wrongful-bias


    Nationwide, Black defendants are more likely than their white counterparts to be wrongfully convicted, and defendants charged with crimes against white victims are far more likely to be erroneously convicted than defendants charged with crimes involving nonwhite victims. Despite the fact that there are far more Black homicides with Black victims, an overwhelming 76 percent of all death row exonerees were wrongfully convicted of the murders of white victims.

    Levon "Bo" Jones spent 14 years on North Carolina's death row for a murder he did not commit, before being exonerated in 2008. Police sought to charge Jones, who is Black, with the murder of a white bootlegger named Leamon Grady, despite obvious flaws in the case and a far more compelling white suspect.

    The racially biased treatment of Jones did not end with the police. His own trial lawyers never took seriously the possibility that he was innocent, and thus never investigated the case. They failed, for example, to walk over to the district attorney's office to get the contradictory statements made by the witness or to investigate her credibility problems.
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  7. #232
    In the Evil Force of Evil Chiasm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RolandJP View Post
    They shot his shoulder to wound.
    This is quite simply one of the most naive and idiotic things I've ever read on the internet about police and given the nature of the internet thats really saying something.

    As anyone who has actually been in combat or a shooting, be it military or police or just as a citizen, can tell you, accuracy is sort of a problem in real life shootings. There is no such thing as shoot to wound except in Hollywood movies because its so damn hard to even hit the person at all. Most real world shootings turn into what is called "spray and pray" which means you just fire as much and as fast as you can and hope something hits. This is why so shots are fired in so many shootings. There was a police shooting about 50 miles from me a month ago and of 79 shots fired at the bad guy only three hit him and two of those were grazes.

    Furthermore as anyone who actually knows something besides Hollywood can tell you about being shot the reality is that shooting to wound would be assanine because even if you could hit with that kind of accuracy it wouldn't stop the bad guy. Shoot him in the shoulder - so what. It might not incapacitate that arm and even if it did he's got another hand that he can hold a gun in. Real life is that most people when shot are like the hero in the Hollywood movie who gets shot repeatedly and barely slows down. Real life is the LAPD cop who a number of years ago got shot in the heart and still she managed to chase her shooter over four blocks before subduing him. Real life is the vast number of people who don't even realize they've been shot until the fight is over.

    What would I know though, I've only been in two shootings (both of them were white guys by the way). Not like I have any real world experience on the matter.
    Last edited by Chiasm; 02-17-2013 at 02:35 PM.

  8. #233
    In the Evil Force of Evil Chiasm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post
    I don't doubt anyone is seriously gonna dismiss the LAPD's history of bad things just like they won't dismiss the New Orleans PD for its history. I do believe that a lot are basically saying , yes some dumb cops for the LAPD acted out of panic and fear over Dorner. They shot and wounded some innocent people and their vehicles and likely will face civil suits for that. But I won't the reaction of a few scared officers who over-reacted to the general reaction of the LAPD here who pleaded with Dorner to turn himself in for a week.
    I'm glad some here do understand.

    A few LAPD cops on guard duty at potential target houses panicked. That by no means they were out to kill Dorner at all costs. If he had surrendered he'd be in a jail cell right now. Instead though he murdered another cop on the last day and then engaged in a firefight with other officers which led to tear gas being shot at him which led to the fire which led to Dorner committing suicide.

  9. #234
    for the lulz 7thangel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dupont2005 View Post
    But if the world is filled with police, judges, defense attorneys, and juries just itching to see a black man fall, how could a good defense even matter? A massive conspiracy ranging from the top of the justice system all the way down to little old ladies that got called in to jury duty kept those cops out of prison because they were so happy a black guy got beat up, but they couldn't nail OJ because he had money?
    i see you keep using the word conspiracy when bias is more appropriate.

  10. #235
    Hardcover addict dupont2005's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RolandJP View Post
    Your naivety is quaint.
    You're right. Police don't fear for their lives, so when being shot at by a white guy they do everything they can to keep from hurting the guy, but they all hate black people so any excuse to end a black man's life is gravy. Also, they have precision mechanical aim, even under fire by a moving object, and always have a choice between shooting a gun out of someone's hand or just ending their life. They make that choice based on the color of the shooters skin of course. I've been so naive all my life!

    But then, if that were the case, couldn't one of these robocops just have shot Dorner with a fatal bullet as soon as the shootout started?

    You think it's racist when a black guy gets shot by police while shooting at police, but nobody cried racism when a white guy was shot by police while holding a baby instead of a gun, because he was acting like an idiot while a cop had his weapon drawn, and reasonable people know when you act like an idiot while a cop has his weapon drawn, you get shot.
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  11. #236
    Hardcover addict dupont2005's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7thangel View Post
    i see you keep using the word conspiracy when bias is more appropriate.
    They keep insinuating that both the defense and the prosecution, along with the jury and judge and internal affairs conspired together to let those police officers go free. I think conspiracy is the correct word.
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  12. #237
    In the Evil Force of Evil Chiasm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dupont2005 View Post
    You're right. Police don't fear for their lives, so when being shot at by a white guy they do everything they can to keep from hurting the guy, but they all hate black people so any excuse to end a black man's life is gravy. Also, they have precision mechanical aim, even under fire by a moving object, and always have a choice between shooting a gun out of someone's hand or just ending their life. They make that choice based on the color of the shooters skin of course. I've been so naive all my life!

    But then, if that were the case, couldn't one of these robocops just have shot Dorner with a fatal bullet as soon as the shootout started?

    You think it's racist when a black guy gets shot by police while shooting at police, but nobody cried racism when a white guy was shot by police while holding a baby instead of a gun, because he was acting like an idiot while a cop had his weapon drawn, and reasonable people know when you act like an idiot while a cop has his weapon drawn, you get shot.
    http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/arizona...by-in-his-arms
    You would be hard pressed to get many of the leaders in the black community to admit this but the reason blacks are shot a higher rate than their percentage in the population is because blacks commit crime at a much higher rate than their percentage of the population which brings them into contact far more with the police than their population should absent any other factors. Now before anyone screams "thats racist" stop and consider what else blacks have at a much higher rate than their percentage in the population. The answer is people in poverty. There is a very direct correlation between poverty and crime as poor people tend to commit crime at a far higher rate than non poor. There are societal reasons that have nothing to do with the police as to why such a high percentage of black people are poor but because its true it tends to lead to a high percentage of blacks being involved in crime. Blacks who are not in poverty don't commit crime at any higher or lesser rate than equally well off members of other races and likewise whites who are poor tend to commit crime at much higher levels than non poor whites. Its not race, its poverty.
    Last edited by Chiasm; 02-17-2013 at 04:04 PM.

  13. #238
    In the Evil Force of Evil Chiasm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dupont2005 View Post
    You're right. Police don't fear for their lives, so when being shot at by a white guy they do everything they can to keep from hurting the guy, but they all hate black people so any excuse to end a black man's life is gravy. Also, they have precision mechanical aim, even under fire by a moving object, and always have a choice between shooting a gun out of someone's hand or just ending their life. They make that choice based on the color of the shooters skin of course. I've been so naive all my life!

    But then, if that were the case, couldn't one of these robocops just have shot Dorner with a fatal bullet as soon as the shootout started?

    You think it's racist when a black guy gets shot by police while shooting at police, but nobody cried racism when a white guy was shot by police while holding a baby instead of a gun, because he was acting like an idiot while a cop had his weapon drawn, and reasonable people know when you act like an idiot while a cop has his weapon drawn, you get shot.
    http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/arizona...by-in-his-arms
    I know that in both of my shootings this was my basic thought process:

    "Oh f***, oh f***, oh f***, oh f*** . . . . . ."

    Everything else was pretty much done on muscle memory from training. I never conciously thought about drawing my gun, I just did it. I don't remember aiming, I just remember shooting. I remember a lot of terror and I remember not wanting to die. I could no more have shot to wound or even contemplated that notion let alone actually effectively do it. In my first shooting I fired two shots in about one second and one hit the guy in the front rib cage area and the other hit him in the back. Two shots in under a second (as stated by several civilian witnesses) yet he in that second spun. Yet some believe we actually could shoot to wound when things are happening that fast. BTW, for those who don't know its actually pretty common to have someone get shot in both the front and back. The bad guy sees you drawing your gun and decides to turn and run just as the cop fires the first shot which goes in the front. The bad guy is still turning and its impossible for the cop to perceive this before he had fired one, two, even three more shots.

  14. #239
    Elder Member mikekerrIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chiasm View Post
    This is quite simply one of the most naive and idiotic things I've ever read on the internet about police and given the nature of the internet thats really saying something.

    As anyone who has actually been in combat or a shooting, be it military or police or just as a citizen, can tell you, accuracy is sort of a problem in real life shootings. There is no such thing as shoot to wound except in Hollywood movies because its so damn hard to even hit the person at all. Most real world shootings turn into what is called "spray and pray" which means you just fire as much and as fast as you can and hope something hits. This is why so shots are fired in so many shootings. There was a police shooting about 50 miles from me a month ago and of 79 shots fired at the bad guy only three hit him and two of those were grazes.

    Furthermore as anyone who actually knows something besides Hollywood can tell you about being shot the reality is that shooting to wound would be assanine because even if you could hit with that kind of accuracy it wouldn't stop the bad guy. Shoot him in the shoulder - so what. It might not incapacitate that arm and even if it did he's got another hand that he can hold a gun in. Real life is that most people when shot are like the hero in the Hollywood movie who gets shot repeatedly and barely slows down. Real life is the LAPD cop who a number of years ago got shot in the heart and still she managed to chase her shooter over four blocks before subduing him. Real life is the vast number of people who don't even realize they've been shot until the fight is over.

    What would I know though, I've only been in two shootings (both of them were white guys by the way). Not like I have any real world experience on the matter.
    Shoot to wound is a thing that belongs in sloppy fiction and nowere else, Where can you shoot a human bein g outside of fingers and toe and not risk their death? Where can you hit someone with a bullet and stop them without it being very likely a fatal wound? You don't shoot at anyone unless risking their death is acceptable,
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  15. #240
    Veteran Member JaggedFel's Avatar
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    Most people go to jail for drug related offenses of which whites use more and our convicted far less.
    Mostly because cops don't go into predominately white neighborhoods looking for drugs like they do in minority neighborhoods.

    Who cares about shoot to wound. How many times are white males accidentally shot by the police for holding their wallets? I mean seriously most of the police brutality against white people occurs during protests.
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