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  1. #16
    Reborn Samurai Len Ikari145's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Soul # 7 View Post
    I really don't think that Ichigo is devoid of charisma. He's a nice guy who will go out of his way to protect his friends no questions asked. Whereas lots of other characters fight for this or that cause that can tend to be kind morally dubious Ichigo fights for one reason only: to protect and save people. There's no gray view of the world to him, no laws that can dictate his actions, no question about whether it's right or wrong. It's just what he does and there's a kind of purity with that kind of instinct that draws people to take his side in conflict. Hell, it's why I like the guy so much.

    A-freaking-Men. While Ichigo isn't a leader(or tries to be for that matter), he tends to inspire people due to his honest desire to protect the people he loves or just people he believes are deserving of help, regardless of affiliation or law. I can't say someone like that isn't charismatic.

  2. #17
    Cruel and Unusual Sound Silence's Avatar
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    He's also a total babe magnet, we can't forget that.

  3. #18
    Swedish Shinigami Dark Soul # 7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sound Silence View Post
    He's also a total babe magnet, we can't forget that.
    Gotta respect a man with true kavorka.

  4. #19
    Lest We Forget The Dog's Avatar
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    Well, maybe Hashirama is like "Red-Haired" Shanks. A loud, wacky guy who drinks like a fish and lives life like it's a neverending party... Until shit gets real. Then he turns on a personality that can stop a war between two world-class superpowers because he told them to or else he'd get involved.
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  5. #20
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    What you're identifying (from a technical writing perspective) is both a character stereotype as well as examples of characters lacking depth.

    If someone is the "quiet, stoic badass" that's a stereotype. And while they get a bad rap, stereotypes are useful in characterization because they allow us to quickly define a character and their role in the plot.

    A good writer, however, never lets a significant character rest on a stereotype. Ideally, you want to take a stereotype and then break it as soon as the plot allows. The quiet, stoic badass likes to play practical jokes, or he completely changes personality around family, or he secretly collects fine china.

    Even that is only a single level down. It works for minor-but-reoccurring characters, but it's not nearly enough for main characters or even secondaries. For that, you want to dig at least another level deeper. The quiet, stoic badass collects fine china, because he actually uses it as an ingredient in some powerful magic.

    If characters continue to appear in your story but they never dig beyond the first level of a stereotype, then they're often going to be perceived as two-dimensional and boring at best, and at worst (if you pick certain stereotypes) they can be actually offensive.
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  6. #21
    The Could-Have-Been King Ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inkthinker View Post
    If someone is the "quiet, stoic badass" that's a stereotype. And while they get a bad rap, stereotypes are useful in characterization because they allow us to quickly define a character and their role in the plot.
    As I understand, it's only called a stereotype when it's a bad thing. If it's a good thing, it's an archetype.
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  7. #22
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    My own view is that a powerful character has a right to act however the hell he wants. If anyone has a problem with that, he blasts them.

    Power!!!

    Now joking aside,
    Quote Originally Posted by The Transient Guest View Post
    Could it be the training? That kinda power can't be handed out without grit, work and determination and apparently somewhere along the line working hard makes you somber?
    Work hard / play hard I always thought was the idiom.

    Could it be the life they lived? If they are that powerful then it's obvious they've seen combat. Death. Pain. Maybe even Aizen as well and that is gonna change you. Eventually the world has to beat you down and then you shouldn't be silly anymore.
    I could go either way on these. I mean yeah there are circumstance that can make you more serious and somber. Because you have worked hard, because you have gone through a lot, because you have seen a lot. That stuff can change you.

    Personally though, I find it far more impressive to see someone that doesn't let all that stuff stop him from being goofy.

    Could it be the idea that power is only used well in the hands of the serious? I can see how the average person wouldn't want someone irresponsible to be able to blow up a building with his hands. But why does having a little zest for life make you irresponsible?
    There is the erroneous idea that 'maturity' automatically means 'stop having fun guys', and that a serious person is automatically more reliable than one who jokes a lot, but that's not really the case. See, the complete version of Dog's C.S. Lewis quote for something far more eloquent than what I would be able to write on my own.

    Hell, part of effective leadership in my eyes is being charismatic and Hashtag is pretty damn charismatic to me. It took me two page to decide I'd follow his orders.

    I keep thinkin bout that old saying "Your men might kill for you, but mine would die for me."

    People would kill because Aizen, Madara, or the Joker told them to.

    People would die because Ichigo, Naruto, or Captain America* needed their help.
    Charisma is an odd thing. It kind of relies on two people, the guy oozing charisma and the guy receiving said charisma.

    I mean look at the Joker. He's crazy and the people that end up with him... well they usually share that character trait, either because they were always like that or because the Joker made them like that.

    With Aizen it was all strength. It wasn't because the liked him or cared about him. The espada followed him because he was strong and they respected/feared that. Oh, charisma through fear that's a good one too.

    Then you have guys like Naruto and Cap.

  8. #23
    Veteran Member Holy Spirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    I wouldn't say that Hashirama or the Zero Division are over the top exactly. Hashirama is just an upbeat dude, simple as.
    I guess it comes down to where you draw the line between "upbeat" and "goofy". He is goofy by my standards, he'll probably mellow out a bit over time but right now my first impression is.......... yeah.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    The Zero Division are all odd to varying degrees but then they are all meant to be geniuses of the highest order so I'm kind of okay with them being strange because they're on a different intellectual level to the majority of people we've seen in the series thus far.
    I guess I just don't see eccentricity and intelligence as being so closely related.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    I don't think that precludes them having a happy outlook.

    Yeah, people see tragedy and horror on their quest for power but it doesn't necessarily mean that they become quiet reserved stoic types. I mean, look at Guts from Berserk he's been fighting in wars since he was around eight years old, was killing from that age, is a victim of sexual abuse, has massive issues derived from him murdering his abusive father, he almost every friend he's ever known killed horribly in front of him, his girlfriend raped and impregnated with the demonic spawn of his greatest enemy and is trapped in nightmarish existence wherein he can barely sleep and is hounded by demons forever.

    And yet, despite all that tragedy in his life, Guts can still smile, make jokes and laugh if the situation allows for it. He still cares about people and is still a nice person to be around and it's entirely believable.

    Just because you see hardship doesn't mean you're going to not be funny or fun to be around any more.
    It's kind of... complicated. You mentioned Guts so lets roll with him.




    Part of what I like about a guy like Guts is the fact that he can go through such a horrible life and still be relatively whole as a person. Form close bonds with people and generally care about others... even totally strangers to the point that he will risk his life for them. He has the type of inner strength that can withstand events that could twist other men to the point of being unrecognizable.(Punisher comes to mind) That kind of resolve is an admirable quality to have because demons can twist people in absolutely horrifying ways.



    However, with all that being said....



    Going through all that should change you quite a bit. That's part of what it means to learn from experience. If you've been through almost constant struggle from the cradle to the grave.... I expect that to leave it's mark in a fairly noticeable way. If you're a child with adult problems it will force you to mature at an accelerated rate. Not to say that you can't have genuine joy in life or laugh and smile when the situation calls for such... but at the same time you should have a certain... presence about you.





    So, going back to the First........ he should be dead. He knows he should be dead. He also knows the last time he was raised from the dead he was used as a weapon against someone he cared for.... ultimately killing said person and the very same individual who raised him that time has raised him yet again. I mean... he's not exactly chilling at home bouncing baby Tsunade on his knee. In a situation like this I expected focus and what I got was..... yeah.

  9. #24
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Spirit View Post
    II guess I just don't see eccentricity and intelligence as being so closely related.
    Oh they are. Not with the regular 'oh he's pretty smart' intelligent people of course.

    The really smart ones though. Oh yeah. A large percentage of geniuses had their fair share of eccentricities. Newton was an alchemist. Lord Byron had a bear. And the less said about what some Greek philosophers and mathematicians believed the better.

    Mind you that's not even getting into the clearly insane ones.

    So yeah, the thing about extraordinary people... they are/were extraordinary unfortunately.
    Last edited by Hazard; 02-09-2013 at 01:11 PM.

  10. #25
    Eleventh Reincarnation Siriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    As I understand, it's only called a stereotype when it's a bad thing. If it's a good thing, it's an archetype.
    No.

    A stereotype is a simplification that you use to categorize someone's personality easily, without having to overly analyse them. Nowadays the word is used negatively a lot, but it's ultimatley a neutral term. For example, most character-based tropes are stereotypes. If you say that someone is "a happy person", you're stereotyping them - it might or might not be true, but it's not all that they are.
    For all the bad reputation they get, stereotypes are essential because otherwise we'd never get anywhere.


    An archetype is an original/model that other similar things are copies of.

    To take Fate/ as an easy example, Gilgamesh is the archetypal hero.
    Suffering is a fact of life. You survive if you find a reason to endure it.

  11. #26

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    With Aizen, I think it was stated that his lack of fear was why most of the Arrancar followed him with the power keeping them in line. Barragan, Stark, Menoli and Loli were probably the main exceptions to that rule.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    As I understand, it's only called a stereotype when it's a bad thing. If it's a good thing, it's an archetype.
    Nope, the term has a bad reputation, but is inherently free of value judgements. An Archetype is the progenitor of a Stereotype... it's the original from which all others are derived. So for instance; vapid, sexpot blondes are a stereotype. Marylin Monroe is the archetype.

    Certain stereotypes are so deeply ingrained into our sociocultural mythos that it's difficult (if not impossible) to positively identify an archetype. Who was the first dirty, lying politician? Who was the first heroic, sacrificing soldier? Impossible to tell, but these are stereotypes as well.
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  13. #28
    About that, I lied. The Transient Guest's Avatar
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    Maybe Aizen wasn't the best Bleach candidate I could have used but I needed someone and he came to mind. With a little further thought maybe someone a bit sillier would have been Mr. Hat-and-Clogs himself.

    He walks around in a hat and clogs yet is consistently shown to be silly as all hell.
    But I bet you wouldn't fight him.

    I'm kinda digging that this has turned into who leads who and their personality but the original idea was just about how the power of a character influences their perceived personality.

    If Hashirama hadn't been touted as the God of Shinobi but rather a merely....I don't know....Wizard of Shinobi or something then would he have been better received?

    If so, that's weird to me.
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  14. #29
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Transient Guest View Post
    Maybe Aizen wasn't the best Bleach candidate I could have used but I needed someone and he came to mind. With a little further thought maybe someone a bit sillier would have been Mr. Hat-and-Clogs himself.

    He walks around in a hat and clogs yet is consistently shown to be silly as all hell.
    But I bet you wouldn't fight him.

    I'm kinda digging that this has turned into who leads who and their personality but the original idea was just about how the power of a character influences their perceived personality.

    If Hashirama hadn't been touted as the God of Shinobi but rather a merely....I don't know....Wizard of Shinobi or something then would he have been better received?

    If so, that's weird to me.
    Hey, I like Hashirama. Guy is fun.

    Also, Urahara wears geta, not clogs. :P

    Another example of a goofy yet superpowerful person, I submit the Earl of the Millennium from D.Gray-man. Guy is silly as hell and looks like a chubby demon man who smiles all the time. He acts like child for the most part, right up until he blows away an entire city but gesturing at it.

    He's terrifying, enormously powerful and great fun to read. Not a stoic bone in his body.
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  15. #30
    Have Robot, Will Smash Iron_twister's Avatar
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    The manga Crows is filled with tough guys and so far, Bouya Haramichi is pretty much the toughest son of a bitch and never could be said to be stoic...Far from it really. Same with Tsukishima Hana in Worst. The guy's a complete goofball at times and he's a damn fighting machine that damn near kicks everyone's asses.

    While I can name some characters who might arguably be stoic and strong, chances are they mellow out fast and still didn't lose some badass points.
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