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  1. #1
    About that, I lied. The Transient Guest's Avatar
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    Default Does a powerful character need to be stoic? ( Bleach / Naruto / OP spoilers )

    I keep wondering why some people have issues with a powerful group, Zero Division from Bleach, or a powerful character, Hashirama from Naruto, being anything less than a quiet, composed badass that doesn't follow the rules.
    Except the rules he makes for himself.

    And even then he doesn't care for those either.

    I'm trying to figure out what the issue is and I keep on dead ending every line of road of thought I go down.

    Could it be the training? That kinda power can't be handed out without grit, work and determination and apparently somewhere along the line working hard makes you somber?
    Work hard / play hard I always thought was the idiom.

    Could it be the life they lived? If they are that powerful then it's obvious they've seen combat. Death. Pain. Maybe even Aizen as well and that is gonna change you. Eventually the world has to beat you down and then you shouldn't be silly anymore.

    Could it be the idea that power is only used well in the hands of the serious? I can see how the average person wouldn't want someone irresponsible to be able to blow up a building with his hands. But why does having a little zest for life make you irresponsible?

    I had one guy argue with me that since Tobirama was talking down to Hashirama that Hashirama is a punk for not beating Tobirama up. I have two older brothers and having me run my mouth at them with a similar hung head reaction doesn't mean any of are weak, it means that we're brothers. And brothers don't have to be cereal 24/7.


    Hell, part of effective leadership in my eyes is being charismatic and Hashtag is pretty damn charismatic to me. It took me two page to decide I'd follow his orders.

    I keep thinkin bout that old saying "Your men might kill for you, but mine would die for me."

    People would kill because Aizen, Madara, or the Joker told them to.

    People would die because Ichigo, Naruto, or Captain America* needed their help.



    There's a great issue where an unenhanced, nonmutant, plain as day woman grabs Caps shield from his unconscious body and holds off Powerball of the Wrecking Crew to the point where she dies from the injuries.

    You don't get that kind of support and love being a serious Sally no matter how good you are at your job, if anything you can alienate people because you're always serious.




    So. Just wanted to get that out, maybe see what some of the other folks thought.
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  2. #2
    God Of Tokusatsu Guy1's Avatar
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    I would like to point how crazy strong Luffy is getting and he's full of life.
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  3. #3

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  4. #4
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Transient Guest View Post
    Hell, part of effective leadership in my eyes is being charismatic and Hashtag is pretty damn charismatic to me. It took me two page to decide I'd follow his orders.

    I keep thinkin bout that old saying "Your men might kill for you, but mine would die for me."

    People would kill because Aizen, Madara, or the Joker told them to.

    People would die because Ichigo, Naruto, or Captain America* needed their help.
    I don't think that Aizen or Joker are uncharismatic. I mean, Joker pretty much runs on charisma and madness and Aizen, while he's kind of cold and clinical, is capable of turning on some serious charm and smoothness when he needs to.

    Equally; I would argue that Ichigo is a charisma vacuum personally. He's not got any scope of vision nor does he have that inspiring quality that makes him a leader. He's reactionary, people mess with his friends or his life and he goes and stomps on them regardless of the consequences. It's endearing but it's a little self-centred and not the kind of behaviour that I would want from a leader.

    Conversely, Naruto is becoming an actual leader. He has the breadth of vision and the depth of understanding to prove himself as a worthy leader. In short, I would follow Naruto into battle if he asked me of it because I believe Naruto wouldn't ask me unless it was the right thing to do and there was no other option. Whereas, if Ichigo asked me to come into battle with him, I'd be much less inclined to help him because his motivations are usually more based around his own personal situation rather than that of anyone else and that he might be overlooking a more simple solution to the problem.

    To answer your question, I don't think power makes for stoicism or vice versa. I mean, look at Gildartz from Fairy Tail, Bunshichi from Tenjou Tenge, Hao from Shaman King or Hashirama himself. All incredibly powerful by the standards of their setting, all of them are the kind of person you could likely have a nice cup of tea and a chat with because they have personality. Stocism doesn't make for boring characters but it's hard to do right.

    You look at Guts from Berserk for example or Killy from BLAME - both are incredibly stoic, Killy especially so, but they are interesting enough to carry narrative because of the character that surrounds that stoic core. Guts is stoic but he is prone to fits of rage, massive self-doubt and self-loathing, great love for his comrades, incredible sadness and even a sort of transient happiness - there is more to him than his prodigious sword skill and enchanted suit of armour.

    Killy is a particularly interesting character study because he's a millennia old amnesiac android on an impossible quest that he cannot give up on. He has determination and clarity of purpose beyond almost any other character I have encountered and he just doesn't give a fuck about what else gets in his way, he won't stop. That's stoicism taken to a logical extreme and it works because the rest of the series is so interesting and varied in what happens it offsets Killy's comparatively simple character. It's a finely tuned balancing act.

    Look at Kenshiro. Stoic as fuck, but he still cries manly tears when he has to kill his brothers and comforts a crying child and expresses rage at those who hurt the innocent or, god help them, his friends or family. His stoicism is a strong portion of his character but there is room for other character traits in there as well. Heck, dude can be downright whimsical in some cases and enjoys woodwork in his spare time.

    So yeah, got a bit ramble-y there, in short: No, powerful characters do not have to be stoic. There's room for elements of stoicism in any character and it can be done well but there's no rule or reason why one is better than the other.
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  5. #5
    Eleventh Reincarnation Siriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Equally; I would argue that Ichigo is a charisma vacuum personally.
    You dare argue against the Ichigomessiah whom Byakuya respected so much that he was willing to kill the most important person in his life because he became Ichigo's enemy? You dare?

    That was so stupid.
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  6. #6
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siriel View Post
    You dare argue against the Ichigomessiah whom Byakuya respected so much that he was willing to kill the most important person in his life because he became Ichigo's enemy? You dare?

    That was so stupid.
    Yeah... it was...

    It could have been cool if it had been handled better but it wasn't...

    Heck, Byakuya is kind of dull but also stoic as hell. He was interesting at the start with his conflict of duty vs his own personal feelings but since that's been resolved he hasn't changed one iota.
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  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siriel View Post
    You dare argue against the Ichigomessiah whom Byakuya respected so much that he was willing to kill the most important person in his life because he became Ichigo's enemy? You dare?

    That was so stupid.
    It probably helped that, not only was Byakuya aware of Tsukishima's ability, the idiot kept telling Byakuya that he was retconning his way into Byakuya's life throughout the fight. I imagine he'd have been a bit less conflicted about Rukia's execution if she spent her entire imprisonment saying "Bwahahaha, I'm not really your sister even though you think I am!"

    In Ichigo's case though, he tries to do everything by himself, so he kinda has a inverted charisma where you want to save him from his own stoicism.
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  8. #8
    Eleventh Reincarnation Siriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
    It probably helped that, not only was Byakuya aware of Tsukishima's ability, the idiot kept telling Byakuya that he was retconning his way into Byakuya's life throughout the fight. I imagine he'd have been a bit less conflicted about Rukia's execution if she spent her entire imprisonment saying "Bwahahaha, I'm not really your sister even though you think I am!"
    Nope! It was specifically(paraphrased) "I am infinitely thankful to you but that is nothing compared to the fact that you oppose the Ichigomessiah.".
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  9. #9
    Veteran Member Holy Spirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Transient Guest View Post
    I keep wondering why some people have issues with a powerful group, Zero Division from Bleach, or a powerful character, Hashirama from Naruto, being anything less than a quiet, composed badass that doesn't follow the rules.
    I just don't like the over the top goofiness.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Transient Guest View Post
    Could it be the life they lived? If they are that powerful then it's obvious they've seen combat. Death. Pain. Maybe even Aizen as well and that is gonna change you. Eventually the world has to beat you down and then you shouldn't be silly anymore.
    Mostly this.

    A lot of it depends on the universe in question and how they acquired their abilities but..... overall I'd say this is it.

  10. #10
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holy Spirit View Post
    I just don't like the over the top goofiness.
    I wouldn't say that Hashirama or the Zero Division are over the top exactly. Hashirama is just an upbeat dude, simple as. The Zero Division are all odd to varying degrees but then they are all meant to be geniuses of the highest order so I'm kind of okay with them being strange because they're on a different intellectual level to the majority of people we've seen in the series thus far.

    Mostly this.

    A lot of it depends on the universe in question and how they acquired their abilities but..... overall I'd say this is it.
    I don't think that precludes them having a happy outlook.

    Yeah, people see tragedy and horror on their quest for power but it doesn't necessarily mean that they become quiet reserved stoic types. I mean, look at Guts from Berserk he's been fighting in wars since he was around eight years old, was killing from that age, is a victim of sexual abuse, has massive issues derived from him murdering his abusive father, he almost every friend he's ever known killed horribly in front of him, his girlfriend raped and impregnated with the demonic spawn of his greatest enemy and is trapped in nightmarish existence wherein he can barely sleep and is hounded by demons forever.

    And yet, despite all that tragedy in his life, Guts can still smile, make jokes and laugh if the situation allows for it. He still cares about people and is still a nice person to be around and it's entirely believable.

    Just because you see hardship doesn't mean you're going to not be funny or fun to be around any more.
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  11. #11
    The Could-Have-Been King Ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siriel View Post
    Nope! It was specifically(paraphrased) "I am infinitely thankful to you but that is nothing compared to the fact that you oppose the Ichigomessiah.".
    I read that as "You are the enemy of my ally and therefore my enemy. Things like debt and gratitude has nothing to do with this."

    Keep in mind that Byakuya is, like, the personification of Lawful Neutral. If anyone can be expected to stone cold stab his best friend on principle, it's him.
    Last edited by Ghost; 02-08-2013 at 02:16 PM.
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  12. #12

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    Yeah, when two friends fight, he'll probably be slightly more likely to side with the friend that isn't trying to stab him while loudly proclaiming that he made up their friendship in the first place.

    Honestly, my favorite Byakuya scenes are when he shows off his non-stoic side. Ambassador Seaweed, making a joke at Renji, deciding to brawl with Kenpachi in the middle of his battle with Yammy, calling his torn up haori cheap to Yamamoto's face, etc...
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  13. #13

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    I think that Sesshoumaru benefitted from increased stoicism, but that's probably because his early personality was a sadistic mercenary douchebag with father issues, and he let go of those as he gained compassion and self-reliance.
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  14. #14
    Swedish Shinigami Dark Soul # 7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    Equally; I would argue that Ichigo is a charisma vacuum personally. He's not got any scope of vision nor does he have that inspiring quality that makes him a leader. He's reactionary, people mess with his friends or his life and he goes and stomps on them regardless of the consequences. It's endearing but it's a little self-centred and not the kind of behaviour that I would want from a leader.
    I really don't think that Ichigo is devoid of charisma. He's a nice guy who will go out of his way to protect his friends no questions asked. Whereas lots of other characters fight for this or that cause that can tend to be kind morally dubious Ichigo fights for one reason only: to protect and save people. There's no gray view of the world to him, no laws that can dictate his actions, no question about whether it's right or wrong. It's just what he does and there's a kind of purity with that kind of instinct that draws people to take his side in conflict. Hell, it's why I like the guy so much.

    Now he would shit as a leader. He's got no tactical thinking, he doesn't plan his moves beyond 'go there, beat that guy up, get people home' and he's a bit too simple minded overall. But I'm pretty sure he's well aware of that because I don't think he'd ever actually try to be a leader or tell anybody else what to do, dude does know his strength and short-comings after all. He just tends to go and do what he does, help people, and people end following him simply because they're drawn to him. On the battlefield I'd Ichigo as an elavated foot-soldier, the kind of guy you point at the bad guys' big guns and then just let him do his thing and he inspires others through his sheer determination to not stop fighting until he dies.

  15. #15
    Cruel and Unusual Sound Silence's Avatar
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    Ichigo isn't trying to be a leader anyway. If anything, he leads by example.
    But he's not on a quest to become Captain Commander of the Gotei 13.

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