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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    I do hope that there's more to it than that - that this is all either a warped telling of the tale by Hephaestus, that they only target 'bad men' (pirates, drug runners, etc.) or that the gods command it. But, as presented, that isn't the case.
    It's not necessarily the case, but it's also not necessarily not the case, if you see what I mean. Heph doesn't say that their targets are randomly chosen rather than selected by some criteria like being "bad men," and he certainly doesn't tell us that the gods are innocent in the Amazons' actions. (In fact, he makes a derisive comment about the selfishness of divine will.) You may find it "more natural to assume that some (most?) want to raid either for the sex, for the children or for the chance to kill their hated enemy"--and Azz may even want us to assume this, especially if he wants to surprise us later. But we're not actually told that their motives are just as you say--so your assumption, however "natural" it seems, is speculation, too. I would be surprised, especially after Heph alluded to Hippolyta's secrets again in 15, if there isn't something more to be revealed. What that might be, we can only guess--and that's all I'm doing.

    Amazons are immortal (tho' they can die by non-natural causes). There is nothing to indicate that they (a) only have to raid once ...
    Because they are immortal, it seems unlikely that they all raid every 30 years without running into an overcrowding problem

    - They are, indeed, slave traders as they used human beings as currency
    I think that's taking "trading" a bit literally. They gave up their children to someone who would teach them skills and make them feel loved. They took a payment in return. Some birth mothers accept payments for "expenses" in private adoptions, and sometimes those payments probably exceed actual expenses The morality of this is questionable, but I think calling the mothers "slave traders" would be a little harsh.

    They love it there and are well treated, but none of them seem to be equipped to leave
    Maybe, but that's an assumption. Where is it said that none of them are equipped to leave? They certainly have skills that would be valued elsewhere. Where is the evidence in 7 that they are not allowed to leave? For that matter, where is the evidence that none of them have ever left?

    It may well be that Heph doesn't actively encourage them to pursue other ways of living, but that probably doesn't make him different from the majority of birth or adoptive families in human history, and we don't call them all slaveholders.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkS
    At the moment we simply don't know enough.
    Correct. I wouldn't say "we're stuck," though; I'd say we're free to speculate. I guess I'm a glass-half-full guy. :)
    Last edited by slvn; 02-12-2013 at 01:11 PM.

  2. #32
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    I think that's taking "trading" a bit literally. They gave up their children to someone who wouldd teach them skills and make them feel loved. They took a payment in return. Some mothers accept payments for "expenses" in private adoptions, and sometimes those payments probably exceed actual expenses The morality of this is questionable, but I think calling the mothers "slave traders" would be a little harsh.
    Here you're attributing motivations to them that are clearly not present. Again, assuming Heph is telling the truth, they were going to kill them until he offered them weapons in exchange. They have zero interest in someone teaching them skills and/or loving them as they were fully prepared to murder them outright until a bargain was offered at which point they gave up something they considered worthless (male children) in trade for weapons.

    Maybe, but that's an assumption. Where is it said that none of them are equipped to leave? They certainly have skills that would be valued elsewhere. Where is the evidence in 7 that they are not allowed to leave? For that matter, where is the evidence that none of them have ever left?

    It may well be that Heph doesn't actively encourage them to pursue other ways of living, but that probably doesn't make him different from the majority of birth or adoptive families in human history, and we don't call them all slaveholders.
    I don't have the issue in front of me, but I'm pretty sure that the one slave (apparently speaking for the others) says they don't want to leave, that Heph provides them with skills and a home. Admittedly, this struck me as ridiculously simplistic and 'unrealistic' (hate using that word in referring to comics) in as that it assumes that every one of the men *likes* their work and has no desire to do anything (I want to *sing* father!!), nor does the worker say anything about training or education in anything other than working for Hephaestus.

    I just cannot imagine any group of people having zero desire to do anything other than what their father trains them to do given any exposure to a world full of other options. My father was a bus driver and did layout for a major newspaper and taught me how to drive, but I had zero desire to drive for a living or to do layout for a paper and I was treated well and loved by my parents. Children following in the footsteps of their parents is not overly widespread these days, let alone every single one of the many 'children' of Hephaestus who all are so happy at the forge that they never want to leave.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce
    Again, assuming Heph is telling the truth, they were going to kill them until he offered them weapons in exchange
    I assume that Heph is saying what he believes, and maybe even what he was told (by the Amazons or Aphrodite, in an effort to get him to take the boys in). But I don't assume he necessarily knows what would actually would have happened. And his perspective, as is often the case, may be colored by over-identification; he assumes that they are being treated as he was treated by Hera. (He actually says that he couldn't let what happened to him happen to them.) We see only one Amazon giving up her son, and she looks distraught and has to be restrained.. It seems plausible that this Amazon, the only example we are given, is not the only Amazon who ever felt that way; and if they cared about losing the boys, they may also have cared what happened to the boys. Some readers seem to assume that one Manazon speaks for all Manazons ever, but that one distraught Amazon mother was probably the only one who felt so distraught--and I don't get that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce
    I don't have the issue in front of me, but I'm pretty sure that the one slave (apparently speaking for the others) says they don't want to leave, that Heph provides them with skills and a home.
    Well, yeah--the ones who are still there didn't want to leave. That doesn't necessarily mean that they couldn't if they wanted to, or that none of their brothers ever have. We don't know that, and I don't assume one way or the other. (Azz should write a story about how Heph's protégé Leonardo left and and took the name Da Vinci.) I also don't assume that the Smith trains them to be anything other than smiths (which, in this context, apparently means makers of everything from jewelry to high-tech armaments) but that should be sufficient preparation to get a start on making their way in the world. Selling one of their high-tech armaments could probably finance a grad school education in any field they want.

    Children following in the footsteps of their parents is not overly widespread these days, let alone every single one of the many 'children' of Hephaestus who all are so happy at the forge that they never want to leave.
    "These days" is the operative phrase there. No one ever accused the Olympians or the Amazons of being completely in step with contemporary Western culture. I doubt Heph thinks it's his job to host Career Days, anymore than my tenant-farmer ancestors would have thought of doing such a thing. But there's zero evidence in the text that he has done anything to prevent the boys from leaving if they so desired.
    Last edited by slvn; 02-12-2013 at 08:13 AM.

  4. #34
    The Mad Artist RMAN63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    Thanks for the compliments, Rob and AmericanWonder. Nice to see you coming around .
    It's fun pretending to be you! Heheheh. Hopefully, Azzarello chimed in while I was at it and steals one of MY ideas. LOL.


    I think the big clue in #7 may be the fact that Amazons rowing towards the mens' ship have bare wrists (along with bare everything else). Everywhere else--except when Hippolyta in making love with Zeus, and a couple of times when Diana is sleeping or relaxing) the Amazons wear bracelets (even if only leather ones). Diana may not be the only one who wears "cuffs" to keep the forces within her in check. But maybe--at least according to the Olympian goddesses' way of seeing things--the cuffs have to come off once in awhile, and the inner monsters have to come out, so that the Amazons can be in control of themselves the rest of the time.

    In other words, the reason for the raids may relate to something Brett said recently about how we're all killers until we learn not to be.
    yeah, I was part of that exchange. Brett was relating to YOUNG kids though. Not adult Amazons whom are at least organized enough to have an infrastructure.. dire as it may be! It's just as possible that they're abhorrent murderers as much as anything else. About the bracelet thing.. i"d hope that this "God Mode" is indigenous to Diana and not all the amazons.


    This might be extra true of the new Amazons; maybe their gifts (immortality, strength, peerless warrior skills) come from primal, pre-Olympian, pre-civilized forces (like the Mother of Monsters and her brood in Batwoman, but if you believe there is no coordination, this could just be parallel, not exactly the same in the two books). Athena, Aphrodite, Hera and Artemis may have kept the Amazons around, after the defeat of the od powers, to be their champions against whatever menaces might crop up, on the theory that in order to defeat monsters, you have to have a little bit of monster in you. And maybe the goddesses even wanted their own army in case their Olympian patriarchs ever became intolerable. But, just like in Marston, they gave the Amazons special bracelets (even if only leather ones) to help them keep their primal, egoistic impulses in check.
    Too bad they didn't give them bracelets to control and keep their ego-centric and man-hating attitudes to themselves. I'm afraid to go out in the ocean because of those bitches! I live close to the theoretical location of Paradise Island, remember? Heheheheheh.
    Sorry for the snarky interjection, I tried to control myself but I didn't have bracelets on.

    But what happens when you keep your aggressive or egoistic impulses in check all the time, without ever venting them? If you're a saint, maybe nothing bad happens; but in some cases, trying to suppress all your unwanted instincts can probably lead to chaos (like the tinderbox that Strife is able to light in #2). Historically, civilized societies have channeled a lot of their primitive aggressive instinct into war, which has probably helped them maintain some semblance of solidarity and order at home. More civilized societies have had artistic outlets, like the "catharsis," or purging of terror and pity, that tragedy was supposed to offer. Steven King argued once that we crave horror films because they allow us to "feed the gators" inside ourselves, throwing a symbolic bone to the monsters and murderers within. In other runs of Wonder Woman, I guess bondage games or guarding the hell door were symbolic or real ways of venting the more aggressive impulses within. But with the New 52 Amazons, the venting mechanism is the sex raids, which also serve the incidental purpose of replenishing the ranks after occasional losses of Amazons while monster hunting. Artistic outlets and the occasional monsters to vanquish might not have been enough of an outlet for the Amazons, if the forces that they had to hold in check were more powerful than those within ordinary mortals. So the goddesses devised this ritual by which the Amazons would allow their inner monsters to come out, once every 30 thirty years or just once in the life of each Amazon.
    The Monster Mash theory is nearly plausible... however, I just can't follow you to the part about the raids being an outlet. If a film were to be made of this I'd play the song "Who Let The Dogs Out" when they go out in their little canoes. Obviously we've got God-Mode with Wonder Woman. I vote we keep it to her. The rest of your theories work fine without extending that to the other amazons.


    Wonder Woman, as the daughter of Zeus, has had to keep more powerful forces in check than any of the Amazons have within them (except maybe Hippolyta, who also wears big metal cuffs). Maybe Wonder Woman is going to be the one to learn, and then teach the Amazons, that there are healthier ways to tame the demons within, maybe by actually integrating them into your personality rather than keeping them under lock and key. I think she would argue that, while we are born with these murderous instincts, we're also born with the capacity to love, and the latter will win out if our upbringing is what it should be.
    What Wonder Woman SHOULD teach them is to co-exist in the outside world instead. These Hermit Crabs are never going to amount to anything if they keep boiling and stewing in their hatred and isolated society. Perpetual uselesness these women are.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post
    It's fun pretending to be you! Heheheh. Hopefully, Azzarello chimed in while I was at it and steals one of MY ideas. LOL.
    LOL. You did a most excellent job, but somehow I don't think pretending to be me is going to get Azzarello's attention.

    yeah, I was part of that exchange. Brett was relating to YOUNG kids though. Not adult Amazons whom are at least organized enough to have an infrastructure
    Sure, but underneath it all, if we're born with those murderous instincts, we probably still have them, buried deep down, even as adults. As you guys were saying, the Amazons used to be models for controlling those prima energies and forming them into something good--and, I would add, maybe they are still are 99.99% of the time, when they're minding their own business and (per Batwoman) keeping monsters locked up. The other .01 percent--a few days or maybe a week every 33 years--they, or some subset of them, give vent to their inner monsters (or "feed the gators, as Stephen King would put it).

    It's just as possible that they're abhorrent murderers as much as anything else.
    Anything's possible, but if they kill people three times a century and refrain from violence against innocents the rest of the time, that's better than a lot of warlike cultures do. And those cultures don't spend most of their time keeping the world safe from monsters.

    About the bracelet thing.. i"d hope that this "God Mode" is indigenous to Diana and not all the amazons.
    I assume that "god mode" per se--as in the ability to easily defeat a god--is a result of being the daughter of Zeus and Hippolyta. But that doesn't mean that the bracelets are just jewelry for the other Amazons--they may help them control their egoistic and aggressive impulses, as they did pre-crisis. (And this, of course, doesn't mean Aleka can't be nasty, but it means they're not flying off in beserker rages all the time.)

    I live close to the theoretical location of Paradise Island, remember? Heheheheheh.
    LOL. By the way, per Demon Knights, it seems like Paradise Island is off Europe's southern coast now (or at least was in the 1100s)

    The Monster Mash theory is nearly plausible... however, I just can't follow you to the part about the raids being an outlet. If a film were to be made of this I'd play the song "Who Let The Dogs Out" when they go out in their little canoes. Obviously we've got God-Mode with Wonder Woman. I vote we keep it to her. The rest of your theories work fine without extending that to the other amazons.
    I just find it really interesting that they're not wearing the bracelets when they row towards the boat. Their arms could easily have been in shadow, so it's almost like Chiang made a point of letting us see that they weren't wearing the bracelets. And I like the idea that maybe the Amazons' immortality and extraordinary strength and fighting prowess (as seen in Demon Knights) comes from primal forces inside them that are exaggerated versions of the darker impulses in all of us, and the bracelets helps us control them.


    What Wonder Woman SHOULD teach them is to co-exist in the outside world instead. These Hermit Crabs are never going to amount to anything if they keep boiling and stewing in their hatred and isolated society. Perpetual uselesness these women are.
    Baby steps. Bring the Manazons to Paradise Island and let them build a gender-equal society. And you wouldn't be calling them perpetually useless if Medusa had been chasing you around instead of rotting in their prison!

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    LOL. You did a most excellent job, but somehow I don't think pretending to be me is going to get Azzarello's attention.



    Sure, but underneath it all, if we're born with those murderous instincts, we probably still have them, buried deep down, even as adults. As you guys were saying, the Amazons used to be models for controlling those prima energies and forming them into something good--and, I would add, maybe they are still are 99.99% of the time, when they're minding their own business and (per Batwoman) keeping monsters locked up. The other .01 percent--a few days or maybe a week every 33 years--they, or some subset of them, give vent to their inner monsters (or "feed the gators, as Stephen King would put it).



    Anything's possible, but if they kill people three times a century and refrain from violence against innocents the rest of the time, that's better than a lot of warlike cultures do. And those cultures don't spend most of their time keeping the world safe from monsters.



    I assume that "god mode" per se--as in the ability to easily defeat a god--is a result of being the daughter of Zeus and Hippolyta. But that doesn't mean that the bracelets are just jewelry for the other Amazons--they may help them control their egoistic and aggressive impulses, as they did pre-crisis. (And this, of course, doesn't mean Aleka can't be nasty, but it means they're not flying off in beserker rages all the time.)



    LOL. By the way, per Demon Knights, it seems like Paradise Island is off Europe's southern coast now (or at least was in the 1100s)



    I just find it really interesting that they're not wearing the bracelets when they row towards the boat. Their arms could easily have been in shadow, so it's almost like Chiang made a point of letting us see that they weren't wearing the bracelets. And I like the idea that maybe the Amazons' immortality and extraordinary strength and fighting prowess (as seen in Demon Knights) comes from primal forces inside them that are exaggerated versions of the darker impulses in all of us, and the bracelets helps us control them.




    Baby steps. Bring the Manazons to Paradise Island and let them build a gender-equal society. And you wouldn't be calling them perpetually useless if Medusa had been chasing you around instead of rotting in their prison!
    Id truly hate to use this analogy because it's quite the pun!.. However, I will! Bringing the Manazons back to Paradise Island would be the equivalent of depositing little white mice in a tank with snakes in it. It's only a matter of time! Would YOU do it? I'd sleep with one eye open.

    I'll be honest with you.. I'm up for subliminal hints here and there. I think it takes hidden talent in writing to pull those off, combined with an artist. But I think the offending Amazons weren't wearing bracelets simply because they're naked. Chiang is good at drawing Wonder Woman, but he's not a freak like Phil Jimenez that would pay so much attention to detail. Nor is Azzarello George Perez in that respect. I think (should your theories prove to be true) that if it's all connected, it's an act of unadulterated geinus on their end. It kind of reminds me how George Perez drew Raven's hair line receeding little by little in a period of 3 years. While we all thought it was his artistic talent evolving, it all turned out to be that he was making room for an extra set of eyes at the end with the Trigon storyline.

    Also, not all the Amazons wear bracelets:



    Look at the bottom panel. That's more like bandaging on her wrists. Although, if you look at the first panel.. dig the waitress serving sushi or something! She seems to be wearing some kind of bracelets on her wrists. It's just a traditionaal way of drawing the Amazons. That's how I take it, anyway.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob_Olivera View Post

    Look at the bottom panel. That's more like bandaging on her wrists.
    I'll count any wrist covering--metal, leather, cloth--as potentially "cuffs." Anyway, I actually don't put it past Azz and Chiang at all to seed issues with little details that will mean something later--see the #0 script excerpts that were put out there at a conference, in which Azz tells Chiang it's important to make sure to put a mother box among War's weapons (and I assume we'll see soon why that was important).

  8. #38
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Except that when we are first introduced to the Amazons, they seem very eager to castrate/kill the source of the 'musk' on their island, so I just don't see them having any issue with killing men, especially if they consider themselves to be at war with them.
    Just because they are ashamed of the raids doesn't mean they ashamed of killing the men. They could be ashamed of having to mate with them, and as such "soiling" themselves with man's musk (they did consider Diana to be the perfect Amazon precisely because she was pure of any male's touch, after all. That could also be why they didn't tell her. So she would remain "pure").
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  9. #39
    Senior Member Don-Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Just because they are ashamed of the raids doesn't mean they ashamed of killing the men. They could be ashamed of having to mate with them, and as such "soiling" themselves with man's musk (they did consider Diana to be the perfect Amazon precisely because she was pure of any male's touch, after all. That could also be why they didn't tell her. So she would remain "pure").
    Nice theory. And that also indicates that probably not all Amazons knew Zeus was Diana's father (we already believed that, but you gave more evidence. The Amazons could rebel against Hippolyta).
    I actually miss all the speculation. The last issues don't open room for that (only for the future).
    Sexism: men are from Ares, women are from Aphrodite.

  10. #40
    Infâme et fier de l'ętre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don-Jack View Post
    Nice theory. And that also indicates that probably not all Amazons knew Zeus was Diana's father (we already believed that, but you gave more evidence. The Amazons could rebel against Hippolyta).
    I actually miss all the speculation. The last issues don't open room for that (only for the future).
    Well, it is pretty much stated in issue 3 that only some of them knew. That, and it would be hard to explain other people calling her "Clay" if they did know she wasn't (althought red head -what's her name again?- doing so just to be mean could be possible.)
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  11. #41
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    I tell you that a different story line for show! kinda a coldto just off the men after sex. Almost how like an animal would do!

  12. #42
    Senior Member Don-Jack's Avatar
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    Another addition I was thinking about for some time

    Maybe the new Amazons become immortal (or ageless) around age 30, because they become immortal by drawing the sailors' life...
    Maybe the ones who are born from the raids are the only ones who need to go to the raids in order to become immortal? Maybe the "original" Amazons did that too, but in the beggining of their civilization.

    Now I came to believe that it's really possible that Aphrodite is involved and all that slvn has said... but this addition is still valid, and I think most of my theory too.
    Last edited by Don-Jack; 10-29-2013 at 07:39 AM.
    Sexism: men are from Ares, women are from Aphrodite.

  13. #43
    Senior Member UsagiTsukino's Avatar
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    why can't there be a balance. It seems there can be diversity. That majority so far think alike. Why can't the amazons be diversity in the views of men and they represented the waves. including the extremist. The extremist will arrest the men and use them has sex slave and prostitution for men have used women has sex object they will use them has sex toys. That is their 4 waves men should be treated has they treated the women has.

  14. #44
    Senior Member Blacksun's Avatar
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    "you know nothing Wonder Woman"

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    Regardless of how many or few times these raids happened, I think it's only right that Diana was made aware of what kind of monsters that some of her sisters really are. She should know what they're capable of as what if she decided to bring Steve Trevor, Superman, Batman, etc. to the island? She could be risking their lives.
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