New Avengers #3 *Spoilers*

[timeismoney]

Yeah, I think the situation were different there.

Captain America is a soldier... the notion of acceptable loss of life changes when you are in a combat situation. If the other earth that the Illuminati is planning to destroy was trying to destroy our earth (a very understable stance from their perspective), I think Steve might be a whole lot more willing to consider hitting them back.

People brought up the scene with Commander Rogers and Beast in Ellis Secret Avengers. That wasn't about blowing up innocent people... that was about stopping terrorists from blowing up innocent people.

Ultimately I think the idea is that Cap isn't necessarily against taking lives... he's against murder. Two very different things.

I agree with what you and Warriorfist has said, the mind wiping of Steve is just to add more drama down the road.
And as many has said Cap don't belong on a team like this, think of it like this Steve is like the Army and Navy. That is who the people see when we go to war.

And the Illuminati is like the wet work team, that the people don't see like the group that killed Osama or the ones that failed to kill Castro in the 60's.

[Rheged]

It doesn't prevent future Incursions and may in fact accelerate the rate at which they occur, given that we've been told the destruction of a Universe "contracts the timeline" further.

So it exacerbates the problem to a degree, yes.

Assuming the 8-hour timeframe per Incursion holds, you could end up with a scenario where they have to deal with it at most every 8 hours. Or maybe that timeframe would be quashed and you'd have multiple universes intruding upon each other simultaneously, either of which would really not be a tenable position for the Illuminati, as the likelihood of them managing to out-draw every other Earth decreases the more Earths they have to out-draw.

I don't think the 8 hours has anything to do with the frequencies of incursions. It's just the time frame of one. They wouldn't need to build an incursion detector if incursions were on a regular schedule.

And yes, halting an incursion only delays the inevitable. However, despite some fans here completely missing it, the Illuminati aren't just considering blowing up worlds as the final and only option. They are already looking forward to the root cause and trying to stop that. They just need time to figure out how to do that.

What I'm waiting for, is how this is supposed to fit in with what's going on other books. Cause, again, it really makes no sense that Tony and Reed are doing what they are doing, unless this incursion problem has been solved.

[XPac]

My mistake, I misunderstood what you were trying to say.



I'd say it's foolish to think that the people of the other Earth isn't putting in motion plans to save themselves as well. So far two of the Earth's that faced incursions (one of which was colliding with Earth) had superhumans who were trying to save their world.

It's not necessarily foolish... how many people on our earth even know the incurrsions are taking place? It's easy enough to think that a given earth that didn't run into a Black Swan might not have a clue what's going on until it's too late.

But if another world is aware of whats going on, like the Illuminati are, then certainly one has to assume they might be trying to do whatever they can to resolve the problem the same way the Illuminati are if they have the means.

[timeismoney]

First off, the Sh'iar are NOT allies. If anything, most the time they have been adversaries. And they are not exactly good people.

Secondly, you haven't explained the difference, but the exact same situation the Illuminati are in with the incursions, except worse. They've been thrown into this situation where every second counts, because the alternative of having TWO universes destroyed are untenable. Cap agonizing over killing and even stalling them, could lead to not more losses, but the loss of everything.




That's why Cap murdered that village of innocent people in the scan I posted.

It's already been stated that the incursions are not natural. They are, for all practical purposes, attacks, and one could argue that the Illuminati are in a combat situation. In fact it's pretty much the same situation as that scan, where innocent people are being used as weapons.

I agree there is really no different, he said Cap didn't have time to give to shit. The same can be said for the Illuminati, Cap went into a situation in Avengers 5 that was kill or be killed.
Can we not say the same for the Illuminati.

[Rheged]

I wouldn't necessarily agree that an incursion by itself qualifies as a combat situation. It's attacking people that arent' attacking you and aren't responsible for the incursion.

IOW, the EXACT same situation of the scan I posted, where Cap murdered a villiage of innocent people. It's beyond a combat situation into a war situation, as someone is trying to destroy our world, two universes, and the multiverse.

That said, they could very well develop into a combat situation... the people that the Illuminati plan on blowing up might decide to attack the 616 earth. In that situation, I think Cap would be more accepting of hitting them back.

Seriously, that just makes Cap come off like idiot.

I'd say it's foolish to think that the people of the other Earth isn't putting in motion plans to save themselves as well. So far two of the Earth's that faced incursions (one of which was colliding with Earth) had superhumans who were trying to save their world.

Excellent point.

[Victor Freeman]

My mistake, I misunderstood what you were trying to say.



I'd say it's foolish to think that the people of the other Earth isn't putting in motion plans to save themselves as well. So far two of the Earth's that faced incursions (one of which was colliding with Earth) had superhumans who were trying to save their world.

We know they are--we see it forshadowed in issue 1.

[gregyo]

So, since I read the issue I've been kind of in the middle, but leaning towards the Illuminati side, but last night I started leaning toward the Cap side.

I'm such a flip-flopper.

[XPac]

IOW, the EXACT same situation of the scan I posted, where Cap murdered a villiage of innocent people. It's beyond a combat situation into a war situation, as someone is trying to destroy our world, two universes, and the multiverse.




Seriously, that just makes Cap come off like idiot.




Excellent point.

I guess we can agree to disagree that it's a combat situation. If they're not actively attacking or threatening you, then I think killing them falls more in the category of murder than combat. You can argue that murder in such a situation might still be the practical course of action, but it's still killing an innocent person. And I don't think it's unjustifed to apply a different standard here than say in Avengers 5 where they are dealing with an active threat.

As far as Cap coming off as an idiot... I'm going to disagree and say Hickman did a good job at making everyone come off as fair.

[Rheged]

So, since I read the issue I've been kind of in the middle, but leaning towards the Illuminati side, but last night I started leaning toward the Cap side.

I'm such a flip-flopper.

LOL!

Of course, it's very attractive to take the "high road" and not get your hands dirty with the day to day saving of multi-verse.

[warriorfist]

First off, the Sh'iar are NOT allies. If anything, most the time they have been adversaries. And they are not exactly good people.

Secondly, you haven't explained the difference, but the exact same situation the Illuminati are in with the incursions, except worse. They've been thrown into this situation where every second counts, because the alternative of having TWO universes destroyed are untenable. Cap agonizing over killing and even stalling them, could lead to not more losses, but the loss of everything.

Yeah, the Shi'ar has never had exactly a good relationship with Earth, but then again, the same goes for almost every alien civilisation Earth has encountered. Almost every major faction in the MU that don't headline books (even Asgardians) has been hostile against Earth one time or the other. By your definition, the Avengers should stop saving half of the people they do.

The difference of stakes between the two situation is exactly what underscores the conflict for Cap. Because the threat is that much greater, it requires that much more deliberation and moral dissonance in the part of the Illuminati, and that's what Cap can't accept. It's like in a chess game, where you can see how it's going to be for the next couple of moves, and you are going to lose so hard that you don't even want to play anymore. Steve is mostly saying that, don't play the game, don't submit to the inevitability of these actions you would have to undertake. But what Steve doesn't understand is that they don't have the choice. They can't leave the game and have to play it all the way to the last move. It's a bit of existential denial from Steve. There was something similar in Warren Ellis' Stormwatch, where they discovered an alternate Earth that was about to be annihilated by aliens, and when one of the team leaders proposed to assemble all that they had and arrange an excursion to join forces with that world's Stormwatch, the head of Stormwatch replied that this was too big for them and they had no jurisdiction over an entire another Earth. While Jackson King didn't have to deal with that kind of ambiguity, it still remains that the magnitude of this threat, and the resilience and pragmatism required to combat it, is simply too big for Cap's britches.

That's why Cap murdered that village of innocent people in the scan I posted.

It's already been stated that the incursions are not natural. They are, for all practical purposes, attacks, and one could argue that the Illuminati are in a combat situation. In fact it's pretty much the same situation as that scan, where innocent people are being used as weapons.

Those 'innocent people' would have surely lead to the death of other innocent people if the threat hadn't been dealt with then and there.

The Chernobyl disaster wasn't natural. Was it an attack as well?

This is the lot of 'innocent', i.e. helpless people not only in fiction, but in real life as well. This is the price everyone pays for not having the power to deal with these kind of dangers. A gazelle simply cannot fend itself against a lion. If someone can and is willing to use them as weapons, as you put it, then it's a gone case. Since only other people with similar power can rescue these innocents, undoubtedly some of them will be casualties, since the rescuers can't react fast enough and they have their own priorities that can supersede those victim's plight as well. When these people themselves don't have any say about what's happening to them, you can't expect them to come out unscratched out of these horrible situations, both manufactured or otherwise.

You may say that, well, no one on that other universe might be able to stop the cascade. Well, tough luck then. I would advise them to get everything in order and make their peace with God. No one is bound to get you out of whatever bind you land yourself into, no matter how or why. No one should try to shift their frustration on such an untenable situation against others who are just as helpless. Crap happens. C'est la vie and all that.

[Rheged]

I guess we can agree to disagree that it's a combat situation. If they're not actively attacking or threatening you, then I think killing them falls more in the category of murder than combat. You can argue that murder in such a situation might still be the practical course of action, but it's still killing an innocent person. And I don't think it's unjustifed to apply a different standard here than say in Avengers 5 where they are dealing with an active threat.

How much more threatening do you need to get? Their world is threatening to ram into your world and kill you and two universes? I really don't see how you can claim the incursions are not an active threat.

And again, Cap has been in this situation and chosen to murder innocent people.

As far as Cap coming off as an idiot... I'm going to disagree and say Hickman did a good job at making everyone come off as fair.

I said YOUR scenario for Cap made him look like an idiot, not what Hickman wrote.

[SanctumSanctorumComix]

I'll toss in one more of my pseudo-metaphorical scenarios here (one that might be more in line with EVERYTHING - and have the added bonus of being seen by KLINTON as an apt analogy):

I'll type the analogy and then (in brackets will give the New Avengers simile)
---

WHAT IF - you have an adversary. (The incursions are being caused by an entity)
You don't know who he is or where he is hiding. (No one knows who he is - except maybe Black Swan)

He has killed untold numbers already (seeing as how there have been destroyed universes already)

He is sending innocent people out as weapons by the trainload... something big enough to be difficult to stop - with bombs strapped onto them into highly populated areas to crash into another oncoming train in a tunnel - or bridge - between two highly populated cities (the big bad is causing Earths to collide with other earths)

The innocent persons with the explosives can not be reasoned with, they have no control over the situation, they have no way to remove or disarm their explosives (the other Earths either have no idea it is happening - until it is too late - or if they do, they can do nothing to stop it)

The booby-trapped train can not be easily detained or derailed before they crash into the other train. (An earth's orbit is an earth's orbit and the two are in the same path)

If the booby-trapped train collides with the other oncoming train not only will BOTH trains explode, but the two cities on either side of the tunnel will also explode - killing everyone in them. (if the 2 earths collide, they explode as do their respective universes)

Perhaps there are ways to slow or stop the vehicle, but there is only 8 minutes before impact. (There is an 8 hour window once the incursion starts before the earths collide and everything dies).

Each train has a missile launcher - or a button that will detonate the other train and thus prevent the collision. (Each Earth theoretically has super powered people to defend it and destroy the other)

If one train is destroyed before it collides with the other, not only is the surviving train not destroyed, but also both cities are saved as well (if one Earth is destroyed, only that earth is gone. The other Earth survives as do both Universes.)

You don't know if the other train is intending on destroying yours first (this is true for the Incursion Earths)

You know that there are MORE such trains on the track ahead and you have NO idea when they will appear (there are more Incursions happening all the time)

You have no idea who or where your hidden enemy is, but while you are in "downtime" from any inevitable crashes, you are devoting every second to discovering who and where he is and how to stop all this (pretty self explanatory)

You don't know when or IF you'll come up with a means to stop all this, but you know that if you could do it any other way besides destroying the other train, you'd do it (again, no duh)

Until you DO come up with a better plan, the ONLY thing that prevents YOUR train from exploding and TWO CITIES - each time - is to destroy the other train. (exactly)

The other train is filled with innocents. However, your train is as well as are the denizens of both cities.

So... until you can find a better way (IF that even presents itself)...
WHAT DO YOU DO?

[XPac]

How much more threatening do you need to get? Their world is threatening to ram into your world and kill you and two universes? I really don't see how you can claim the incursions are not an active threat.

And again, Cap has been in this situation and chosen to murder innocent people.




I said YOUR scenario for Cap made him look like an idiot, not what Hickman wrote.

The incursions are an active threat... but the people you need to murder in order to prevent them aren't necessarily. They're not causing the incursions. They're just victims of it like you are. So I do think it's fair to apply a different standard.

That doesn't necessarily mean that murdering them isn't a necessary course of action... but it's still murdering innocent people. It's not the same thing as killing someone in a combat situation where someone is trying to kill you or someone else.

[klinton]

The incursions are an active threat... but the people you need to murder in order to prevent them aren't necessarily. They're not causing the incursions. They're just victims of it like you are. So I do think it's fair to apply a different standard.

That doesn't necessarily mean that murdering them isn't a necessary course of action... but it's still murdering innocent people. It's not the same thing as killing someone in a combat situation where someone is trying to kill you or someone else.

Hahaha...get out of the loop, mate. Save your breath and come help me make some "Cap was right" t-shirts and buttons to pass out at the "Hickman's Avengers" wrap up party. :D

[Juggernaut Punch]

It's not necessarily foolish... how many people on our earth even know the incurrsions are taking place? It's easy enough to think that a given earth that didn't run into a Black Swan might not have a clue what's going on until it's too late.

But if another world is aware of whats going on, like the Illuminati are, then certainly one has to assume they might be trying to do whatever they can to resolve the problem the same way the Illuminati are if they have the means.

I'd say any world with a superhuman population ought to detect an incursion. That's been the case so far with White Manifold and Hyperion's worlds.

Yeah, the Shi'ar has never had exactly a good relationship with Earth, but then again, the same goes for almost every alien civilisation Earth has encountered. Almost every major faction in the MU that don't headline books (even Asgardians) has been hostile against Earth one time or the other. By your definition, the Avengers should stop saving half of the people they do.

The Avengers weren't aiding any civilians. It was repeatedly stated that they were fighting on a "Dead Moon". The Avengers came to the aid of the Imperial Guard who are a military unit under the direct command of the Shi'ar Majestor.

The Chernobyl disaster wasn't natural. Was it an attack as well?

The Chernobyl disaster was an accident, the Incursions are the work of the Great Destroyer.

How much more threatening do you need to get? Their world is threatening to ram into your world and kill you and two universes? I really don't see how you can claim the incursions are not an active threat.

I think he's trying to say that the people of the other Earth are not responsible for the attack, and are thus not a threat.