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  1. #1006
    I am Rabum Alal Victor Freeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klinton View Post
    If one of your friend's pulled a similar stunt, you wouldn't mince words when you confronted them. No matter how many times they tried the "well, what I actually said was..." line, you would still call them a liar.

    You've been a rational voice for the pro-homicide team here. Don't lose it now, mate.

    Would I feel betrayed? Yes. Steve is human and so yeah, he would feel betrayed.
    But I'm a pretty a detailed, fact oriented kinda guy (as you can tell). You can view it as misleading, but I would have caught the non-answer. I personally think its trivial compared to the mind wipe as X-Pac said. That's the real betrayal.

  2. #1007
    Senior Member timeismoney's Avatar
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    The thing is Hickman, as much as I like his writing is giving us two Cap. We got Cap in New Avengers 3 saying, he wouldn't allow them to blow another world to save ours.
    But then in Avengers 5 we got Cap telling the Avengers to wipe out a race that is not a threat to earth. Because in Avengers 5 it was clear, Cap didn't give two shits about another option he wanted those guys wiped out which is what the Avengers did on his orders. So it is crazy that he couldn't even consider in New Avengers they may have blow up another earth to save their and that earth universe.
    Last edited by timeismoney; 02-10-2013 at 09:00 AM.
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  3. #1008
    I am Rabum Alal Victor Freeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by warriorfist View Post
    I thought of using the actual term 'Xanatos Gambit'. I quote TvTropes way too much though, so that was my way of trying to tone it down, haha.

    BP is better than a lot of guys when it comes to shady dealings, but he isn't exactly a wallflower either in that department. The fact that they were meeting secretly like this, not just for this incident, but for many years beforehand, and their actions coming out of those meetings, should have made Cap at least entertain the possibility of this kind of disagreement.

    It doesn't matter if Cap had or didn't have the authority to act against a King. He has punched Thanos when he was effectively god with capital G, so clearly authority means squat to him if he thinks someone is doing something wrong in possession of his full faculties. If you say that Cap was righteous then so he was justified, well, he was righteous this time as well. Just because T'Challa had a valid reason for his actions doesn't negate that.
    Fair enough. This is fair.

  4. #1009
    Completely sauced... klinton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor Freeman View Post
    Would I feel betrayed? Yes. Steve is human and so yeah, he would feel betrayed.
    But I'm a pretty a detailed, fact oriented kinda guy (as you can tell). You can view it as misleading, but I would have caught the non-answer. I personally think its trivial compared to the mind wipe as X-Pac said. That's the real betrayal.
    Oh for sure. The ultimate wrong lies in thier willingness to ignore thier own 'rules' and shut down the dissenting voice rather than have to justify thier wrongness. That's full on Nazi styles action.

    I have to say, Mr. Freeman, you're a pleasure to converse with. Your ability to follow a debate, point for point without resorting to petty distraction tactics, is a rarity on here. I enjoy your comments immensely. :D
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  5. #1010
    I am Rabum Alal Victor Freeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timeismoney View Post
    The thing is Hickman, as muck as I like his writing is giving us two Cap. We got Cap in New Avengers 3 saying, he wouldn't allow them to blow another world to save ours.
    But then in Avengers 5 we got Cap telling the Avengers to wipe out a race that is not a threat to earth. Because in Avengers 5 it was clear, Cap didn't give two shits about another option he wanted those guys wiped out which is what the Avengers did on his orders. So it is crazy that he couldn't even consider in New Avengers they may have blow up another earth to save their and that earth universe.
    I think-- he's showing Cap being human. Cap's selective-value system, while virtuous--as humans we tend to justify a means to a end. Most humans justify things--so to me it's very human. For example, a person agreeing with the death penality, being a war hawk, but being against abortion.

  6. #1011
    I am Rabum Alal Victor Freeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klinton View Post
    Oh for sure. The ultimate wrong lies in thier willingness to ignore thier own 'rules' and shut down the dissenting voice rather than have to justify thier wrongness. That's full on Nazi styles action.

    I have to say, Mr. Freeman, you're a pleasure to converse with. Your ability to follow a debate, point for point without resorting to petty distraction tactics, is a rarity on here. I enjoy your comments immensely. :D
    Thank you sir!

  7. #1012
    Fictionaut-in-training warriorfist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timeismoney View Post
    The thing is Hickman, as muck as I like his writing is giving us two Cap. We got Cap in New Avengers 3 saying, he wouldn't allow them to blow another world to save ours.
    But then in Avengers 5 we got Cap telling the Avengers to wipe out a race that is not a threat to earth. Because in Avengers 5 it was clear, Cap didn't give two shits about another option he wanted those guys wiped out which is what the Avengers did on his orders. So it is crazy that he couldn't even consider in New Avengers they may have blow up another earth to save their and that earth universe.
    I think you are letting the more badass aspect of Cap that's been showcased so far in the current Avengers run cloud your perspective a bit.

    Cap was not making a preemptive assault, or even leading an offense to begin with. He was responding to a distress call where his allies in question were losing badly to a force that heavily outnumbered and outgunned them. He ordered his squad to employ basic shock and awe tactics which would make a dent in the enemy's moral along with their numbers, and make it easier for the Avengers and the Shi'ar to pacify them, even as they were just trying to survive until reinforcements arrived. The sentient drones didn't exactly explain why the hell they were rampaging through Shi'ar space, so it's not Cap or the Shi'ar had any additional data to inform their decisions. He didn't make a calculated decision to commit genocide. He didn't give two shits about any other alternative because they were in the field of battle, where every second lost means that those very alternatives were becoming more and more untenable. If he were to agonise over killing those drones, even stalling them might have become impossible as losses would have continued to mount. That's a stark difference to what the Illuminati are planning, comprehensively and with premeditation. That's what Steve was warning about, that once they convince themselves beforehand that this is justified, there was no telling what they would descend to.

    Mind you, I love it when Cap shows shades of grey (I liked that aspect of Ellis' Secret Avengers as well, unlike many others) but sometimes you just got to call a spade a spade.
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  8. #1013
    Smarter Than The Average! The Cat's Avatar
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    Having finally read this issue, I have to agree with those who where underwhelmed with Cap's presence on the team. The fact that his
    morale compass appears to shift depending on who he is dealing with (Avengers #5) makes his removal all the more palatable...

  9. #1014
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by warriorfist View Post
    I think you are letting the more badass aspect of Cap that's been showcased so far in the current Avengers run cloud your perspective a bit.

    Cap was not making a preemptive assault, or even leading an offense to begin with. He was responding to a distress call where his allies in question were losing badly to a force that heavily outnumbered and outgunned them. He ordered his squad to employ basic shock and awe tactics which would make a dent in the enemy's moral along with their numbers, and make it easier for the Avengers and the Shi'ar to pacify them, even as they were just trying to survive until reinforcements arrived. The sentient drones didn't exactly explain why the hell they were rampaging through Shi'ar space, so it's not Cap or the Shi'ar had any additional data to inform their decisions. He didn't make a calculated decision to commit genocide. He didn't give two shits about any other alternative because they were in the field of battle, where every second lost means that those very alternatives were becoming more and more untenable. If he were to agonise over killing those drones, even stalling them might have become impossible as losses would have continued to mount. That's a stark difference to what the Illuminati are planning, comprehensively and with premeditation. That's what Steve was warning about, that once they convince themselves beforehand that this is justified, there was no telling what they would descend to.

    Mind you, I love it when Cap shows shades of grey (I liked that aspect of Ellis' Secret Avengers as well, unlike many others) but sometimes you just got to call a spade a spade.
    Yeah, I think the situation were different there.

    Captain America is a soldier... the notion of acceptable loss of life changes when you are in a combat situation. If the other earth that the Illuminati is planning to destroy was trying to destroy our earth (a very understable stance from their perspective), I think Steve might be a whole lot more willing to consider hitting them back.

    People brought up the scene with Commander Rogers and Beast in Ellis Secret Avengers. That wasn't about blowing up innocent people... that was about stopping terrorists from blowing up innocent people.

    Ultimately I think the idea is that Cap isn't necessarily against taking lives... he's against murder. Two very different things.

  10. #1015
    Veteran Member Juggernaut Punch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klinton View Post
    Oh for sure. The ultimate wrong lies in thier willingness to ignore thier own 'rules' and shut down the dissenting voice rather than have to justify thier wrongness. That's full on Nazi styles action.
    That has never been the case with the Illuminati. During virtually every crisis there have been dissenters. Dissenters who have vowed to do all they can to stop a decision. Hell, Namor tried to kill Iron Man over a decision, and would have succeeded if not for Doctor Strange's intervention, yet everyone who has ever dissented has been invited to the next meeting. In this case, they simply didn't have the time for continued arguments. They'd already wasted hours over this and the multiverse is at stake.

  11. #1016
    Completely sauced... klinton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juggernaut Punch View Post
    That has never been the case with the Illuminati. During virtually every crisis there have been dissenters. Dissenters who have vowed to do all they can to stop a decision. Hell, Namor tried to kill Iron Man over a decision, and would have succeeded if not for Doctor Strange's intervention, yet everyone who has ever dissented has been invited to the next meeting. In this case, they simply didn't have the time for continued arguments. They'd already wasted hours over this and the multiverse is at stake.
    Right. It was an aberrition. It clearly illusrates how lost they are here, that even thier own rules of conduct no longer apply.

    My point was that they've gone against their own established code. What, exactly, is yours?
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  12. #1017
    IMPERIUS REX!!! Rheged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by warriorfist View Post
    I think you are letting the more badass aspect of Cap that's been showcased so far in the current Avengers run cloud your perspective a bit.

    Cap was not making a preemptive assault, or even leading an offense to begin with. He was responding to a distress call where his allies in question were losing badly to a force that heavily outnumbered and outgunned them. He ordered his squad to employ basic shock and awe tactics which would make a dent in the enemy's moral along with their numbers, and make it easier for the Avengers and the Shi'ar to pacify them, even as they were just trying to survive until reinforcements arrived. The sentient drones didn't exactly explain why the hell they were rampaging through Shi'ar space, so it's not Cap or the Shi'ar had any additional data to inform their decisions. He didn't make a calculated decision to commit genocide. He didn't give two shits about any other alternative because they were in the field of battle, where every second lost means that those very alternatives were becoming more and more untenable. If he were to agonise over killing those drones, even stalling them might have become impossible as losses would have continued to mount. That's a stark difference to what the Illuminati are planning, comprehensively and with premeditation. That's what Steve was warning about, that once they convince themselves beforehand that this is justified, there was no telling what they would descend to.

    Mind you, I love it when Cap shows shades of grey (I liked that aspect of Ellis' Secret Avengers as well, unlike many others) but sometimes you just got to call a spade a spade.
    First off, the Sh'iar are NOT allies. If anything, most the time they have been adversaries. And they are not exactly good people.

    Secondly, you haven't explained the difference, but the exact same situation the Illuminati are in with the incursions, except worse. They've been thrown into this situation where every second counts, because the alternative of having TWO universes destroyed are untenable. Cap agonizing over killing and even stalling them, could lead to not more losses, but the loss of everything.


    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Yeah, I think the situation were different there.

    Captain America is a soldier... the notion of acceptable loss of life changes when you are in a combat situation. If the other earth that the Illuminati is planning to destroy was trying to destroy our earth (a very understable stance from their perspective), I think Steve might be a whole lot more willing to consider hitting them back.

    People brought up the scene with Commander Rogers and Beast in Ellis Secret Avengers. That wasn't about blowing up innocent people... that was about stopping terrorists from blowing up innocent people.

    Ultimately I think the idea is that Cap isn't necessarily against taking lives... he's against murder. Two very different things.
    That's why Cap murdered that village of innocent people in the scan I posted.

    It's already been stated that the incursions are not natural. They are, for all practical purposes, attacks, and one could argue that the Illuminati are in a combat situation. In fact it's pretty much the same situation as that scan, where innocent people are being used as weapons.

  13. #1018
    IMPERIUS REX!!! Rheged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juggernaut Punch View Post
    That has never been the case with the Illuminati. During virtually every crisis there have been dissenters. Dissenters who have vowed to do all they can to stop a decision. Hell, Namor tried to kill Iron Man over a decision, and would have succeeded if not for Doctor Strange's intervention, yet everyone who has ever dissented has been invited to the next meeting. In this case, they simply didn't have the time for continued arguments. They'd already wasted hours over this and the multiverse is at stake.
    Previously, they weren't under a time clock, so there's no problem with dissenting. Dissenting was never a reason to get kicked off the Illuminati.


    Quote Originally Posted by klinton View Post
    Right. It was an aberrition. It clearly illusrates how lost they are here, that even thier own rules of conduct no longer apply.

    My point was that they've gone against their own established code. What, exactly, is yours?
    No it does not.

    They don't have rules of conduct or some sort of charter. The only rule they have is to keep things secret. Cap wasn't going to do that, so they shut him down.

  14. #1019
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheged View Post
    First off, the Sh'iar are NOT allies. If anything, most the time they have been adversaries. And they are not exactly good people.

    Secondly, you haven't explained the difference, but the exact same situation the Illuminati are in with the incursions, except worse. They've been thrown into this situation where every second counts, because the alternative of having TWO universes destroyed are untenable. Cap agonizing over killing and even stalling them, could lead to not more losses, but the loss of everything.




    That's why Cap murdered that village of innocent people in the scan I posted.

    It's already been stated that the incursions are not natural. They are, for all practical purposes, attacks, and one could argue that the Illuminati are in a combat situation. In fact it's pretty much the same situation as that scan, where innocent people are being used as weapons.
    I wouldn't necessarily agree that an incursion by itself qualifies as a combat situation. It's attacking people that arent' attacking you and aren't responsible for the incursion.

    That said, they could very well develop into a combat situation... the people that the Illuminati plan on blowing up might decide to attack the 616 earth. In that situation, I think Cap would be more accepting of hitting them back.

  15. #1020
    Veteran Member Juggernaut Punch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klinton View Post
    Right. It was an aberrition. It clearly illusrates how lost they are here, that even thier own rules of conduct no longer apply.

    My point was that they've gone against their own established code. What, exactly, is yours?
    My mistake, I misunderstood what you were trying to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I wouldn't necessarily agree that an incursion by itself qualifies as a combat situation. It's attacking people that arent' attacking you and aren't responsible for the incursion.

    That said, they could very well develop into a combat situation... the people that the Illuminati plan on blowing up might decide to attack the 616 earth. In that situation, I think Cap would be more accepting of hitting them back.
    I'd say it's foolish to think that the people of the other Earth isn't putting in motion plans to save themselves as well. So far two of the Earth's that faced incursions (one of which was colliding with Earth) had superhumans who were trying to save their world.

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