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  1. #76
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    That's all we have to go with at the moment.

    Hades had no love when he shot at Diana - things may be different if he shot at her now, though - so there was no love to imbue the bullet with.
    Forgive me for not being as well versed in this mythology as perhaps I should be. But if Hades's bullets were not imbued with the true power of love, then why were they more dangerous to Diana than bullets shot with love? In other words, for the magic of Eros to work (his bullets, specifically), isn't love required? And thus, if Hades had no love, then why did the bullets have any effect on Diana at all? Why are the more bullets more dangerous when the magic element that gives them their power is absent?

  2. #77
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stillanerd View Post
    Well, actually, it doesn't look like Superman is broken from the Sirens spell even then, because when he breaks out of the lasso, he ends up backhanding Wonder Woman (ironically while he's saying he doesn't want to hurt her). Its Eros who actually breaks the Sirens spell over Superman once he shoots them.
    Yep, that's what I meant when I said he didn't break out of it immediately. I was counting that he was still out of it enough to take that swing at her. I however, forgot that the panels right after that depict Eros shooting the Sirens. Quite plausible that did it in the end. So I may be mistaken there.

  3. #78
    French-Canadian Frank Fournier's Avatar
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    How can Superman catch a bullet that can pass THROUGH solid things? A bullet with NO love was able to pass THROUGH Wonder Woman's bracelets before! I wish he would just step aside at super speed to avoid that bullet instead. It makes more sense.

    Why can Wonder Woman resist the song of the Sirens with her lasso, can free Eros with her lasso but her lasso can't do that with Superman?
    Last edited by Frank Fournier; 02-07-2013 at 05:41 PM.
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  4. #79
    The Mad Artist RMAN63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Fournier View Post
    How can Superman catch a bullet that can pass THROUGH solid things? A bullet with NO love was able to pass THROUGH Wonder Woman's bracelets before! I wish he would just step aside at super speed to avoid that bullet instead. It makes more sense.

    Why can Wonder Woman resist the song of the Sirens with her lasso, can free Eros with her lasso but her lasso can't do that with Superman?
    Thank God IDGAF anymore... or I'd be pretty perplexed myself!

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    So, in short, we (arguably) get:
    Superman > Diana's bracelets
    I don't know if you've seen this part, but arguably, Diana's bracelets > Superman:

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    Superman > Diana's lasso
    That, I think, is a pretty tough argument to make. Superman doesn't want to hurt Diana; the lasso is fighting for Superman, not against him. It's the sirens' influence, not Superman's will, that overrules the lasso--and only in controlling Superman's actions, not in revealing the truth. (As far as Superman just physically be able to beat the lasso, we don't see what would have happened had Wonder Woman held it tight. She's attempting to use it not as a weapon but as a remedy.)

    And Superman < Sirens < Wonder Woman.

    Superman is unsuccessful in his struggle against the Sirens, even with the help of the lasso. Whether that would have changed, given more time, who knows? But Wonder Woman, with her lasso, is able to shrug off the sirens' influence and free Eros from it. And so Superman needs Wonder Woman and Eros to save him.

    As for "vague"--eh. We're reading this too much like accountants, for my taste. How many debits and credits in Wonder Woman's column, and how many in Superman's? Nothing against accountants, but as readers of fiction, shouldn't we pay less attention to bookkeeping matters and auditing the enforcement of the world's "rules," and more to character development and thematic development? For example, what dopes the story show about truth and courage as related to these characters?

  6. #81
    Senior Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Forgive me for not being as well versed in this mythology as perhaps I should be. But if Hades's bullets were not imbued with the true power of love, then why were they more dangerous to Diana than bullets shot with love? In other words, for the magic of Eros to work (his bullets, specifically), isn't love required? And thus, if Hades had no love, then why did the bullets have any effect on Diana at all? Why are the more bullets more dangerous when the magic element that gives them their power is absent?
    The bullets are forged by Hephaestus and, ordinarily, they are weapons. However, when fired from Eros' guns (which were also made by Hephy), they are, ordinarily, imbued with love (of varying degrees, and these days, apparently, Eros has shifted things to an extreme (although that may now have changed)) which is dependent on the one firing the gun. As such, when Hades shot Diana they remained 'Hephy-bullets' and, for some reason, Hephy had made the bullets in such a way that they would penetrate armour he himself had forged.

    Diana isn't bullet proof - she isn't even 'arrow-proof' - but as 'weapon-based' as the bullets are, they are not meant to kill. Diana felt an ache when the bullet was inside her; that ache, it can be argued, was brought about by the absence of love on Hades' part. So they weren't 'more dangerous' (Diana never died) in the conventional sense, but the bullet she was hit with did have an initial adverse effect.

  7. #82
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    I'll keep this short ;)

    Loved the story itself, but hated the inconsistencies. Lasso should have worked on Superman, bullet shouldn't be catchable, but I ignored that and enjoyed the tale anyway ;)

  8. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post

    As for "vague"--eh. We're reading this too much like accountants, for my taste. How many debits and credits in Wonder Woman's column, and how many in Superman's? Nothing against accountants, but as readers of fiction, shouldn't we pay less attention to bookkeeping matters and auditing the enforcement of the world's "rules," and more to character development and thematic development? For example, what dopes the story show about truth and courage as related to these characters?
    I agree with this. A good story allows for debate but also if one loses sight of the point of the story and get caught up in accounting then you miss why we read fiction.
    All this talk of logic, where was God mode eh? Or the double swords? Least she recalls she flies. And who has proof the lasso forged by smith works on all sentient life in the universe the same way? Supes is alien.

    The great thing about magic? It cannot be defined. Coupled with love (another thing that cannot be pigeon holed because love is different ) it can make for an interesting mix.It's why in many a story love conqers logic and magic too. In stories I think Supes has dealt with magic by acts of faith...belief.

    Seems like Azz has her lasso's powers and bracers as vague and different any way so Diggle is not necessarily wrong in any way imo. Nothing should get pass her bracers some could argue. Others might say well no way the Omega Effect should be blocked. It's at a writer's discretion.

  9. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    I don't know if you've seen this part, but arguably, Diana's bracelets > Superman:
    No, I had not seen that scan - so, thanks for sharing. But, it's a little unclear (to me) what exactly is going on. Superman uses his heat vision in one panel, and Diana puts up her hands to cover herself, presumably blocking the heat vison. So, how 'bout this:

    Superman's hand catching bullets > Eros' bullets > Diana's bracelets > Superman's heat vision.

    [Note: my point is NOT that this is the definitive version. My point is that the story is vague and loose enough in playing with the rules of their universe that it's open to different interpretations. Some of those interpretations may be good, some may be bad (subjective, of course).]

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    That, I think, is a pretty tough argument to make. Superman doesn't want to hurt Diana; the lasso is fighting for Superman, not against him. It's the sirens' influence, not Superman's will, that overrules the lasso--and only in controlling Superman's actions, not in revealing the truth. (As far as Superman just physically be able to beat the lasso, we don't see what would have happened had Wonder Woman held it tight. She's attempting to use it not as a weapon but as a remedy.)

    And Superman < Sirens < Wonder Woman.
    True that Superman is apparently more vulnerable to the Siren's spell, and that Siren spell, in the case of Superman, is what trumps the lasso. So, in that regard, Sirens > Superman + WW's lasso. In regards to Superman's manly man strength power activate: Superman breaks free (on that much we can agree?), so Superman breaking free > WW + lasso. Superman is out of control, she's trying to contain him to prevent him from hurting folks, and she doesn't think to hold tight? That's pretty weaksause in my kitchen.

    [Note: my point is NOT that this is the definitive version. My point is that the story is vague and loose enough in playing with the rules of their universe that it's open to different interpretations. Some of those interpretations may be good, some may be bad (subjective, of course).]

    Quote Originally Posted by slvn View Post
    As for "vague"--eh. We're reading this too much like accountants, for my taste. How many debits and credits in Wonder Woman's column, and how many in Superman's? Nothing against accountants, but as readers of fiction, shouldn't we pay less attention to bookkeeping matters and auditing the enforcement of the world's "rules," and more to character development and thematic development? For example, what dopes the story show about truth and courage as related to these characters?
    Well, you're free to discuss what ever you want to discuss, truth or accounting, courage or bookkeeping.

    As for "accounting," all science, physical or social, is based on patterns - in a way, it's all "bookkeeping," no? As for fiction, I'm a believer that quality writing is able to adhere to the "rules" of their established world. I'm not a big believer in always giving the writers a pass simply because they started the story at the punch line and had to play musical chairs with the pieces to pretend it fits, or vaguely fits well enough if fans don't think enough to look behind the curtain and see the inconsistencies. "It's magic, it don't have to make sense" is not really a strong argument, imo, despite what Mr. Q might think on the matter.
    Last edited by americanwonder; 02-07-2013 at 10:09 PM.
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  10. #85
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepenguin View Post
    As for him being in love with someone else, despite having a lasso of truth around him and most likely if he got to the truth while being in it...you suggesting he's is a cad and coward of the first water for not telling Diana that but instead telling her he loves her of his own free will...whatever rocks your boat...We know how Brett verse works.
    Thats Earth Brett actually, Private. The lasso cant even free him from the Sirens so who knows how its working.

    Obviously as I pointed out, he is as unaware of his true feelings as Diana is.

    But hey, silver lining. If slvns theory pans out then Steve Trevor cannot be affected by a bullet to make him Diana's love slave
    Last edited by brettc1; 02-08-2013 at 12:07 AM.
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  11. #86
    Junior Member Rainzo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post

    That's great. But there's no indication that time included Superman getting to know Wonder Woman very well or falling in love with her.
    By saying this...The Justice league worked together for 5 years Misslane, 5 years! Did you notice that when Wonderwoman and Green Lantern fought, Superman was the only person Wonder Woman apologised to? This shows to an extent, they were close. And when the bad guy(I forget his name) attacks everyone, Superman only screams out when he hurts wonder woman? (Both at the Justice league tower and in the ghost world or wherever Graves was). There is no way they will write about how close they were in those 5 years but with those few panels we can see they were. Lois and Clark on the other hand (in the new 52) have no panel to clearify that. And oh in another thread where you replied to someone about Superman and Lois being able to mate....yes it has been shown before, but that is not POSSIBLE. There is no form of 'Jedi Wushi Taekwando training that can train a man to do that, yet alone someone who can destroy a surrounding by sneezing! so while that was canon before, it isn't anymore because it makes no sense whatsoever. Long and short, for now, Superman is with Wonder Woman. Whether or not you choose to see the word 'current' as meaning it would end soon is up to you. But I think it's safe to say that if that was written about Lois, you would see it as something totally different!


    EDIT: Sorry I brought this to this thread...
    Last edited by Rainzo; 02-08-2013 at 06:16 AM.
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  12. #87
    Senior Member Don-Jack's Avatar
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    Jealousy.

    Sexism: men are from Ares, women are from Aphrodite.

  13. #88
    Senior Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainzo View Post
    Lois and Clark on the other hand (in the new 52) have no panel to clearify that.
    Not to be contrary, but there were several instances in the first few issues of Superman which established that Clark and Lois had a close relationship. Yes, Lois had tried to set him up on dates and said they were best friends, but we also had, in the very first issue, Clark wondering about how 'if things were different'

    Those were also '5 years later' and, coupled with the early issues of Action we saw some of that transition from rivals to best friends. By contrast, the 5 year jump didn't serve to show any such growth with Superman/Wonder Woman relationship, especially when you take their recent interactions/dates/conversations into account - so far, in my opinion, they've been interacting in a way people who had only known each other for a couple of months and were now taking things seriously would, rather than a couple who have known each other and worked (and survived) together for 5 years.

  14. #89
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainzo View Post
    By saying this...The Justice league worked together for 5 years Misslane, 5 years! Did you notice that when Wonderwoman and Green Lantern fought, Superman was the only person Wonder Woman apologised to? This shows to an extent, they were close. And when the bad guy(I forget his name) attacks everyone, Superman only screams out when he hurts wonder woman? (Both at the Justice league tower and in the ghost world or wherever Graves was). There is no way they will write about how close they were in those 5 years but with those few panels we can see they were.
    Was that the same story where Diana is continuously screaming Steve's name? Man, she must love him big time. Understanably of course, since he saves their collective assess
    Irene Adler: “I would have you right here on this desk until you begged for mercy twice.”
    Sherlock: “I’ve never begged for mercy in my life.”
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  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don-Jack View Post
    Jealousy.

    Orion looks more civil then during his 'cover fight' with Wonder Woman, charity boxing match?

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