Young Romance #1 Spoilers

[slvn]

For people who are curious about the love-gun incident, but not necessarily $7.99 curious, here's that page:

spoilers: end of spoilers

[brettc1]

The point of the end of the story seems to be that he loves Diana of his own free will. As if often the case, the internal logic of the universe takes a back seat to the authors point. Yes the bullets are magic and should go right through his hand just like they went through Diana's bracelets. His "love" logicall can offer no protection because Diana loves everyone in Azzarello's story and the bullet still goes through her arm and into her heart.

Seems like the lasso was useful, except when it was inconvenient. I'm assuming that Supes didnt break it like Bizarro years back because I would certainly have seen that mentioned. Still, it doesnt protect him like it does Diana, and apparently Eros. Why? Well, because that doesnt work for the story. See above.

Regarding Docha's observation about lines being drawn, I would say that the point that I am taking away from this story is that Clark is free to make up his own mind.

Or in other words "He'll never love another? Not going to happen."

Edit - I liked the little blurb at the end. More complications arise...in the pages of Superman. The hidden text says But NOT in Wonder Woman. The guy writing that book does whatever the hell he wants!

[Frank Fournier]

Regarding Docha's observation about lines being drawn, I would say that the point that I am taking away from this story is that Clark is free to make up his own mind.

Or in other words "He'll never love another? Not going to happen."

Edit - I liked the little blurb at the end. More complications arise...in the pages of Superman. The hidden text says But NOT in Wonder Woman. The guy writing that book does whatever the hell he wants!

The hidden text rather says: "Superman will hurt Eros' cousin. He will love another. More complications *cough*Lois*cough* arise...in the pages of Superman."

[slvn]

His "love" logicall can offer no protection because Diana loves everyone in Azzarello's story and the bullet still goes through her arm and into her heart.

I was thinking that way this morning--so of course I find it to be a perfectly respectable--nay, brilliant!-- line of thinking! However, after reading others' comments and thinking about it a bit more, it seems to me that this logic only definitively works if you assume that all kinds and amounts of love are equally protective or non-protective against the bullets. After all, however much Superman's love for Diana may pale in comparison to his love for Lois, I'm pretty sure his love for Wonder Woman is more particular and passionate than Wonder Woman's love for Hades. Maybe only erotic love stops the bullet.

It's true that the "real" reason, from the author's point of view, is that it first the story. But is there anything wrong with that? We haven't seen what happens when someone who is erotically "in love" with the person they're looking at is hit by the bullet, so is there a reason wouldn't a writer answer that question in away that fits the story?

[Rob_Olivera]

I was thinking that way this morning--so of course I find it to be a perfectly respectable--nay, brilliant!-- line of thinking! However, after reading others' comments and thinking about it a bit more, it seems to me that this logic only definitively works if you assume that all kinds and amounts of love are equally protective or non-protective against the bullets. After all, however much Superman's love for Diana may pale in comparison to his love for Lois, I'm pretty sure his love for Wonder Woman is more particular and passionate than Wonder Woman's love for Hades. Maybe only erotic love stops the bullet.

It's true that the "real" reason, from the author's point of view, is that it first the story. But is there anything wrong with that? We haven't seen what happens when someone who is erotically "in love" with the person they're looking at is hit by the bullet, so is there a reason wouldn't a writer answer that question in away that fits the story?

Isn't "erotic love" called 'Lust'?

[slvn]

Isn't "erotic love" called 'Lust'?

Well...not exactly. Lust is "I want to jump your bones." Erotic love is "you are my sun, my moon, my everything...and I want to jump your bones."

[americanwonder]

The point of the end of the story seems to be that he loves Diana of his own free will. As if often the case, the internal logic of the universe takes a back seat to the authors point. Yes the bullets are magic and should go right through his hand just like they went through Diana's bracelets. His "love" logicall can offer no protection because Diana loves everyone in Azzarello's story and the bullet still goes through her arm and into her heart.

I agree with you and Slvn (brilliant minds and all ) that this does feel somewhat written backwards - start with a point, then have the internal logic play musical chairs to make it fit. In general, I agree that Superman should not be able to catch that bullet - he's fast enough, but it'd go right through him just as it did Diana's bracelets.

But if it does, we end up with a different story dynamic. Without using the lasso, relying on trust, would Diana ever truly know if it was the bullet that caused Superman to love her? Could be an interesting story, but it isn't the story the author was going for here. And since I think I can see what the author was going for, contrived and a bit hokey it may be, I'm more open to giving this one a pass.

Also of note, I don't think Diana's "protection" from the bullet that struck her was solely her love for everyone, but because Hades, the shooter, had no love to give. Or did I misunderstand (again?) what Azzarello was going for there?

Seems like the lasso was useful, except when it was inconvenient. I'm assuming that Supes didnt break it like Bizarro years back because I would certainly have seen that mentioned. Still, it doesnt protect him like it does Diana, and apparently Eros. Why? Well, because that doesnt work for the story. See above.

Again, I haven't read the actual story yet, but this one I'm more inclined to say, "bonkers!" I really don't care for writer's having the lasso work except when it doesn't work for no given reason (other than the story requires it to be this way or it won't work).

Edit - I liked the little blurb at the end. More complications arise...in the pages of Superman. The hidden text says But NOT in Wonder Woman. The guy writing that book does whatever the hell he wants!

I'm guessing that no one at DC dares to question or ask the God of War to change his scripts. ;)

[slvn]

Also of note, I don't think Diana's "protection" from the bullet that struck her was solely her love for everyone, but because Hades, the shooter, had no love to give. Or did I misunderstand (again?) what Azzarello was going for there?

No, that was my understanding, too--because he had no love to give, and specifically because he didn't love himself, and "you can't make anyone love you if you don't love yourself." I don't think "loving everyone" protected her at all from the gun--it just allowed her to answer truthfully while wearing the lasso as a noose, that she loved Hades. But what I think we don't know--or didn't know until know--is what happens if the target doesn't just love everyone, but is passionately in love with the person he's looking at when he gets shot. Also, I still like to think that Eros didn't mean for the bullet to actually work--he just meant to prompt the two to express the love they already had for each other, which is what happened.

I'm actually OK with tailoring the rules to match the desired story outcome, as look as this decision doesn't conflict with already-established rules or the longer term neds of the story and characters--and I don't think it does in this case.

As for the lasso working differently on Superman, I think this relates back to their earlier conversation about secrets. Superman is somebody who has been living a double life (out of heroism,, according to Wonder Woman). He's used to the cognitive dissonance involved in acting as if the truth weren't true, so having to tell the acknowledge the truth (that he doesn't want to hurt Diana) doesn't necessarily affect his actions as much. "The truth will set you free" sounds good, but maybe it's not that simple for everyone. Eros probably always foes and says what he feels like doing and saying, so he doesn't have the same ind of built-up tolerance for cognitive dissonance.

[americanwonder]

No, that was my understanding, too--because he had no love to give, and specifically because he didn't love himself, and "you can't make anyone love you if you don't love yourself." I don't think "loving everyone" protected her at all from the gun--it just allowed her to answer truthfully while wearing the lasso as a noose, that she loved Hades. But what I think we don't know--or didn't know until know--is what happens if the target doesn't just love everyone, but is passionately in love with the person he's looking at when he gets shot. Also, I still like to think that Eros didn't mean for the bullet to actually work--he just meant to prompt the two to express the love they already had for each other, which is what happened.

I'm actually OK with tailoring the rules to match the desired story outcome, as look as this decision doesn't conflict with already-established rules or the longer term neds of the story and characters--and I don't think it does in this case.

I'll buy that - I particularly like the sentence that I bolded. Well done.

What are your thoughts on how the lasso was used (specifically working on Diana and Eros while not working on Superman)? Got any super-powered fill in the blank explanation magic up your sleeve?

eta:

As for the lasso working differently on Superman, I think this relates back to their earlier conversation about secrets. Superman is somebody who has been living a double life (out of heroism,, according to Wonder Woman). He's used to the cognitive dissonance involved in acting as if the truth weren't true, so having to tell the acknowledge the truth (that he doesn't want to hurt Diana) doesn't necessarily affect his actions as much. "The truth will set you free" sounds good, but maybe it's not that simple for everyone. Eros probably always foes and says what he feels like doing and saying, so he doesn't have the same ind of built-up tolerance for cognitive dissonance.

Um, no, nice try, but I'm not buying this one. Sounds too much like a lazy writer's cheat to get around not obeying the lasso: "but he's use to dodging the truth so much he almost sort of thinks it is truth." No. If they're going to limit the lasso as such, they might as well toss it out all together.

[Rob_Olivera]

I'll buy that - I particularly like the sentence that I bolded. Well done.

What are your thoughts on how the lasso was used (specifically working on Diana and Eros while not working on Superman)? Got any super-powered fill in the blank explanation magic up your sleeve?

Well, one COULD say that it didn't work on him because he was already under another godly spell. Although it did kind of work. He was a little confused and coming around.

But what interested me most was this:



The 2nd verse seems again to imply, that the original prophecy in issue 1 really is The First Born, after all. Not Zola's baby, whom we suspect is actually Zeus.

[slvn]

I'll buy that - I particularly like the sentence that I bolded. Well done.

What are your thoughts on how the lasso was used (specifically working on Diana and Eros while not working on Superman)? Got any super-powered fill in the blank explanation magic up your sleeve?

Glad you asked! :)

I think the story, which is titled "Truth or Dare," is largely about the two main characters' relationships with the truth. As we saw in the preview, Wonder Woman worries about having been lied to, While Superman worries about having lied.



Wonder Woman believes that the truth will set her free--or would have, if only she had thought to lasso her mother!; Superman believes that, though the truth is worth fighting for, some truths might kill his loved ones. And Superman's view is reasonable, at least from Wonder Woman's point of view; he's done what he has had to do to, and he's done it heroically. But what he's had to do is live a double life and get used to acting in ways that sometimes contradict the truth. So when the lasso forces the truth out of him ("I don't want to hurt you"), he doesn't automatically act accordingly; he's all too used to admitting (though usually only to himself) what the truth is but acting differently.

Wonder Woman, for whatever reason, doesn't have that habit--and neither does Eros, albeit for the more selfish reason that he usually just says and does whatever's on his mind.

For some people (like Superman), ""the truth will set you free" is, maybe, just a little too simple.

Or, the lasso just affects Kryptonians a little differently from Olympians.

Sounds too much like a lazy writer's cheat to get around not obeying the lasso: "but he's use to dodging the truth so much he almost sort of thinks it is truth."

It's not really like that, though. He tells the truth--that he doesn't want to hurt Diana. But it's one thing to know and profess the truth and another thing to be able to behave accordingly. And as Rob pointed out, he is struggling against the sirens' control, and perhaps the lasso is helping; before being roped, he blasts Diana with heat vision (which she deflects), but after, he just smacks her with an open hand, as you can see above.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Erotic love is "you are my sun, my moon, my everything...and I want to jump your bones."

You mean, just like Love?

[Rob_Olivera]

Well...not exactly. Lust is "I want to jump your bones." Erotic love is "you are my sun, my moon, my everything...and I want to jump your bones."

LOL.. umm.. I call that "codependent", "low self esteem", and downright stalker material. LOL. Yikes!

[Eliseu Gouveia]

LOL.. umm.. I call that "codependent", "low self esteem", and downright stalker material. LOL. Yikes!

By that same token, 99% of all romance fiction is stalker material. ^_^

[adkal]

Briefly:

The lasso incident shouldn't have happened, in my opinion.

The bullet incident, while understandable, was just 'forced' (again, in my opinion). Superman loves Wonder Woman (insert eye roll here) and love can't compound (or be foisted on) love, even if the 'intent' was to make the existing love 'permanent'. Clearly, though, stopping that bullet took a heckuva lot out of Superman...

But what interested me most was this:



The 2nd verse seems again to imply, that the original prophecy in issue 1 really is The First Born, after all. Not Zola's baby, whom we suspect is actually Zeus.

What if, though, this was about what was going to happen in the Super-books as well?

'The best of men' (Superman) 'returns to his sundered world' (Krypton)

'But the special girl' (Kara) 'must stand alone/allegiance sworn in the coming of the first born' (H'El)

'Oracles and prophecies' (Oracle's coming) 'time itself' (the time travel stuff) 'the stars will freeze stripped of arms, unto their knees they fall...' (H'El's plan to shunt Sol and, in turn, the system would have an effect on the interstellar gravitational balance and mess things up, causing them to 'fall')