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  1. #61
    Burrrrrn Sol M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    Resurrection Stone? No way. Voldermort put decades of research toward immortality and all that stuff and the best he got was 'maim my soul and hope it works'. The resurrection stone lets anyone bring back a shade like it was a freaking party trick.
    A few issues with that:

    1) Voldemort is the most powerful wizard of his generation. There's no indication that ancient wizards couldn't be more powerful, quite the opposite in fact - it's explicitly stated that ancient wizards were very powerful.

    2) Voldemort was researching immortality, not the ability to bring the souls of others back from the dead. He's perfectly capable of raising armies of zombies however. Again, it's explicitly stated that he'd fear such an object, so there's not really much incentive for him to try to make such a thing.

    If anything, Voldemort should have been capable of making his own improved version of the Philosophers stone, if he were truly as capable of making/inventing the best stuff along his lines of interest as you say.

    3) The stone didn't really fully bring people back from the dead, making it as though they were alive again (which was actually what the stone was supposed to do). In fact, the stone seemed to be fairly useless in that regard. It could put you in contact with the dead people you wanted, but they were still dead people. Not very different from ghosts, except that they had more substance.

    Frankly, if Death gives someone a resurrection stone with the explicit purpose of bringing the dead back to life, I'd expect it to bring the dead back to life, not bring back their undead shades. This is more likely to be a failed attempt to cheat Death by a wizard.

    4) There were many, many ridiculous artifacts in HP that completely blows something like "bring souls back to life" out of the water. Too many to count. Stuff like portraits that were essentially the people who they were meant to portray in two dimensions, and crazy levels of spacial warping was the least of it. Time turners were the worst. They handed them out to children so that they could keep up with their class schedules for crying out loud.

    Now Harry Potter wizards do some cool stuff, because they don't have to worry about silly things like 'sense' or 'physics', but that's a bit too easy even for them.
    Honestly, I suspect the biggest reason why the stone wasn't as commonplace as many of the far more ridiculous objects in the setting was that the inventor never got to pass on his craft to anyone else. Possibly compounded by the fact that the inventor as apparently a wizard of legendary skill whose knowledge may as well have been lost in time.

    It makes perfect sense when you consider how far more potent objects like the Time Turner can be commonplace: it's probably just because the knowledge of how to make one actually exists among wizards.
    Last edited by Sol M; 02-06-2013 at 11:51 AM.

  2. #62
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol M View Post
    1) Voldemort is the most powerful wizard of his generation. There's no indication that ancient wizards couldn't be more powerful, quite the opposite in fact - it's explicitly stated that ancient wizards were very powerful.
    Hence why I list everything else I have seen on the book.

    Sidenote, Voldermort doing research implies he is doing research in what past wizards have done on the subject.

    2) Voldemort was researching immortality, not the ability to bring the souls of others back from the dead. He's perfectly capable of raising armies of zombies however. Again, it's explicitly stated that he'd fear such an object, so there's not really much incentive for him to try to make such a thing.
    So? The principle of the object is what matters not the object itself

    If anything, Voldemort should have been capable of making his own improved version of the Philosophers stone, if he were truly as capable of making/inventing the best stuff along his lines of interest as you say.
    See my not nearly as impressive comment.

    3) The stone didn't really fully bring people back from the dead, making it as though they were alive again (which was actually what the stone was supposed to do). In fact, the stone seemed to be fairly useless in that regard. It could put you in contact with the dead people you wanted, but they were still dead people. Not very different from ghosts, except that they had more substance.

    Frankly, if Death gives someone a resurrection stone with the explicit purpose of bringing the dead back to life, I'd expect it to bring the dead back to life, not bring back their undead shades. This is more likely to be a failed attempt to cheat Death by a wizard.
    Except Death was explicitly trying to screw over the wizards.

    4) There were many, many ridiculous artifacts in HP that completely blows something like "bring souls back to life" out of the water. Too many to count. Stuff like portraits that were essentially the people who they were meant to portray in two dimensions, and crazy levels of spacial warping was the least of it. Time turners were the worst. They handed them out to children so that they could keep up with their class schedules for crying out loud
    This is where we differ it seems. All that you just listed? Utterly mundane to me compared to the little stone.

    That and, in story, they are treated as way easier to accomplish than messing with death.

  3. #63
    Eleventh Reincarnation Siriel's Avatar
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    Voldemort didn't bother finding out how to make a Philosopher Stone because it would leave him dependent on something other than his own magic, which he couldn't accept. So even if he'd gotten it in book 1 he would have used it to get a new body and then gone back to Horcruxes. This is directly stated in the books.
    Suffering is a fact of life. You survive if you find a reason to endure it.

  4. #64
    Astral God Surtur's Avatar
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    Here is one thing that doesn't make sense to me though about Voldemort. Some of the reasons given as to why he wouldn't 100% rely on the Philosophers Stone is because the exilir could be stolen and he'd have to trust other people, etc. I get that, but with the horcruxes he specifically still has to trust other people in order to actually get fully resurrected.
    A woman can move a lot faster with her skirt up than a man can with his pants down.

  5. #65
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surtur View Post
    Here is one thing that doesn't make sense to me though about Voldemort. Some of the reasons given as to why he wouldn't 100% rely on the Philosophers Stone is because the exilir could be stolen and he'd have to trust other people, etc. I get that, but with the horcruxes he specifically still has to trust other people in order to actually get fully resurrected.
    I'm guessing this wasn't perfect way he envisioned by any means, but it was the closest he got. If he had more time he would have kept researching and experimenting.

    Beating death is hard... unless you have an invisibility cloak :)

    Edit: Actually, I'm pretty sure he says something along the lines "One of the many ways I tried worked and kept me in this world" in book four when he summons the Death Eater; so yeah it wasn't perfect at all.

  6. #66
    Eleventh Reincarnation Siriel's Avatar
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    The destruction of his body might have had something to do with the rebounding curse (or the fact that it was Avada Kedavra) and love and he would normally just not die. Useless speculation for Rumbles, but that's what the story seems to imply.
    Suffering is a fact of life. You survive if you find a reason to endure it.

  7. #67
    Burrrrrn Sol M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    Sidenote, Voldermort doing research implies he is doing research in what past wizards have done on the subject.
    There's the little issue known as 'competence' that he might run into with that.


    So? The principle of the object is what matters not the object itself
    How does the resurrection stone help make him immortal? o_O



    See my not nearly as impressive comment.
    Er..sorry? Which is it?



    Except Death was explicitly trying to screw over the wizards.
    That's...not really much of an excuse to give the guy something he didn't actually ask for.

    Besides, the point of this is, it's not really more believable that Death gave them the stone.


    This is where we differ it seems. All that you just listed? Utterly mundane to me compared to the little stone.
    The little stone that does...absolutely nothing. <_<

    That and, in story, they are treated as way easier to accomplish than messing with death.
    Certainly, but I've already explained a likely reason for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Siriel View Post
    Voldemort didn't bother finding out how to make a Philosopher Stone because it would leave him dependent on something other than his own magic, which he couldn't accept. So even if he'd gotten it in book 1 he would have used it to get a new body and then gone back to Horcruxes. This is directly stated in the books.
    And the resurrection stone would make him less dependent on something else, is it? oO

    ...that of course, is assuming he could find some way to use to make himself immortal at all.

    The point being, if he didn't try to make a philosophers stone, there's no reason he would try to make a resurrection stone.

  8. #68
    Astral God Surtur's Avatar
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    If Death was trying to screw over the brothers I get the Elder Wand(attracts too much attention) and the Stone(person resurrected isn't 100% themselves or something) but what about the cloak? As far as I can see there wasn't any negative consequences to it, in fact the brother supposedly kept it on until he died(or otherwise lived a good life on died on his own terms, I guess).
    Last edited by Surtur; 02-06-2013 at 12:23 PM.
    A woman can move a lot faster with her skirt up than a man can with his pants down.

  9. #69
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol M View Post
    How does the resurrection stone help make him immortal? o_O
    Magical artifacts are usually have a pure spell based form, so in theory a spell form of the stone is not out of the question.

    If you have the ability to bring back a dead soul, you can in theory keep working it until is is an automatic respawn.

    That's...not really much of an excuse to give the guy something he didn't actually ask for.

    Besides, the point of this is, it's not really more believable that Death gave them the stone.
    Dude, it's classic myth. Give what you want in a way that is not actually what you asked at all and totally screws you over. The guy asked a stone to take peopel from Death, that's what he got. No one said it had to be permanent and no one said they had to be alive.

    The little stone that does...absolutely nothing. <_<
    Bringing back dead souls is certainly not nothing.

    Certainly, but I've already explained a likely reason for that
    That they didn't teach the trick, which doesn't really work. They aren't a small community. It's a world wide one. Plenty of people have tried and done lots of stuff. Inferi, ghosts, horcruxes, the little ritual Voldermort used. None of them hold a candle to that stone in terms of sheer simplicity and actually bringing something back.

  10. #70
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surtur View Post
    If Death was trying to screw over the brothers I get the Elder Wand(attracts too much attention) and the Stone(person resurrected isn't 100% themselves or something) but what about the cloak? As far as I can see there wasn't any negative consequences to it, in fact the brother supposedly kept it on until he died.
    He was the nice (and smart) one. Basically Death wanted to mess with the brothers and went all "Curse you, your super bridge making magic totally foiled my attempt to kill you. Fine. You win. You beat me. You beat Death. I'll grant you one request each."

    "I want a super wand."

    "You suck Death. Give me a super stone."

    "Yeah... I'm not falling for this. I just want to pass through this river without being bothered by you."

    "I like you guys, especially you. Have this awesome cloak. You two have this awesome gifts that aren't going to backfire. At all."
    Last edited by Hazard; 02-06-2013 at 12:32 PM.

  11. #71
    The Exterminator The last dalek's Avatar
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    Dumbledore on the story of the three brothers

    "I think it more likely that the Peverell brothers were simply gifted, dangerous wizards who succeeded in creating those powerful objects"

    Just throwing it out there.

  12. #72
    The good kind of evil Rhyvurg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol M View Post
    Pretty much. In the Arena, it's a quick draw, or perhaps a mutual kill.

    In a scenario where the Predator is hunting Harry, it depends on whether Harry is aware that he's being hunted and the location where the Predator decides to make a move.

    ...actually the location only becomes significant is Harry is unaware that the Predator is hunting him. Otherwise, I don't really see how the Pred is tracking a teleporting (usually invisible or shapeshifted in public locations) spellcaster who can hide out in areas that are completely untraceable even by magical means.

    If Harry's ignorant of any impending danger, then yeah, the Pred can sneak up on him when he's alone and frag him to heck.
    Predators are capable of tracking by scent and have excellent hearing, especially with the masks. Teleporting would certainly make the hunt take longer but I don't think it would guarantee his safety.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sol M View Post
    It doesn't need to be a detection spell. He can just as easily use an AoE spell, or wave his wand around casting spells that would certainly hit any invisible opponents.

    Or he could just use Homo Revelio.

    Or a summoning charm (those don't have to be aimed).

    If he was fully aware that there was an invisible opponent in the vicinity, locating the opponent shouldn't be an issue.

    Of course, that would require him to be aware of an invisible opponent. And as mentioned, it wouldn't help him in time to avoid getting fried.
    Did Harry actually use any AOE's?

    Quote Originally Posted by lunar-man View Post
    LMAO!, Do you really think something like a Predator that dies at the end of each movie including the AVP movies can fight Harry Potter.

    Video game Predators are a differant story.
    Quote Originally Posted by lunar-man View Post
    Harry Potter wins against movie Preds just except it. The Preds are no differant from Wily Coyote LOL!.

    Magic beats Pred tech, I used to be a hardcore Pred fan thinking,"Those are Young Preds they only lost because they are teens".

    Main human characters always beat the Preds you never see a Predator winning against the main character.

    Yes Predators are good hunters but as Villians or Anti-Heroes they always die no matter what it's not worth supporting they win when watching the movies.

    To be fair to you video game Predators win if you play them as main characters.
    Yeah, to be fair? Harry died in his last movie too. You're arguing by the character's role in their stories, but that's irrelevant. What matters is what they've been shown capable of doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    Because for 'a wizard did it' I have to believe a wizard is capable of 'doing it'.

    Super Wand? Okay.
    Invisibility cloak? Fine. As long as we put aside the 'death won't find you' and take it as just a very long lasting cloak with some cool spell immunity.
    Resurrection Stone? No way. Voldermort put decades of research toward immortality and all that stuff and the best he got was 'maim my soul and hope it works'. The resurrection stone lets anyone bring back a shade like it was a freaking party trick.

    Now Harry Potter wizards do some cool stuff, because they don't have to worry about silly things like 'sense' or 'physics', but that's a bit too easy even for them.
    Even if the hiding from death thing is true, I imagine death can find you pretty easy through the hole a plasmacaster will burn through the cloak. Also, the cloak doesn't stop sound and Preds can track your heartbeat. If this is a hunt Harry's screwed, the Pred will lay invisible traps and Harry will never know he's coming. If it's the arena it's a quickdraw, could go either way.
    Last edited by Rhyvurg; 02-06-2013 at 12:42 PM.
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  13. #73
    Burrrrrn Sol M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
    Magical artifacts are usually have a pure spell based form, so in theory a spell form of the stone is not out of the question.
    So, where's the spell for the philosopher's stone that makes you immortal? <_<

    If you have the ability to bring back a dead soul, you can in theory keep working it until is is an automatic respawn.
    ...except the dead people it brings back are still very dead and not particularly inclined to stay in the mortal world. <_<


    Dude, it's classic myth. Give what you want in a way that is not actually what you asked at all and totally screws you over. The guy asked a stone to take peopel from Death, that's what he got. No one said it had to be permanent and no one said they had to be alive.
    I thought it was a stone that brought people back to live. Hence the name 'resurrection stone'.

    Of course, I might be misremembering.

    Regardless, you do realize that the similarity of the story with classic myth doesn't exactly increase the likelihood of it being true, right? Quite the opposite in fact.


    Bringing back dead souls is certainly not nothing.
    Well, compared to say, traveling back in time, it might as well be.

    This is the bit that doesn't really make all that much sense to me. How is bringing back the dead in a verse where there are literal Veils of Death and actual ghosts walking around more impressive than traveling through time and generally making the laws of physics cry?

    That they didn't teach the trick, which doesn't really work. They aren't a small community. It's a world wide one. Plenty of people have tried and done lots of stuff. Inferi, ghosts, horcruxes, the little ritual Voldermort used. None of them hold a candle to that stone in terms of sheer simplicity and actually bringing something back.
    Hence the wizard who initially invented it being particularly exceptional. So much so that the wizard's story has gained a mythical status.

    The thing which you seem to be missing here is that the alternative explanation provided in the story implied that the wizard was really ridiculously powerful/skilled to the extent that his work was truly inimitable. This, opposed to the personification of Death showing up and giving the wizards the items.

    Now personally, taking the overall portrayal of the setting into account, along with the opinion voiced by one of the most knowledgeable characters in the story, and also along with the author's own apparent intent for ancient wizards to be more powerful than current generation ones, I'd have to go with the "legendary wizard whose spells were the stuff of legend!" explanation over the "appearance of random anthropomorphic personification that has never been hinted at by anything in the story or setting and knowledgeable people within the setting seem to find it only a little more likely than the non-magical, non-superstitious people would" explanation.

    Mileage may vary, of course. And clearly does.
    Last edited by Sol M; 02-06-2013 at 12:53 PM.

  14. #74
    Blind Resolve Hazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol M View Post
    So, where's the spell for the philosopher's stone that makes you immortal? <_<
    Nah, that just makes you young (which should probably exists given the existence of aging potions and such). Perfect for a simple life. Dark Lord Lifestyle though? Not so much.

    ...except the dead people it brings back are still very dead and not particularly inclined to stay in the mortal world. <_<
    And Voldermot was a maimed soul staying here only because of the other fragments of him. The process is quite possible.

    I thought it was a stone that brought people back to live. Hence the name 'resurrection stone'.

    Of course, I might be misremembering.
    That's what people thought it did. The guy just asked for the ability to bring back his loved ones. That's what he got.

    Regardless, you do realize that the similarity of the story with classic myth doesn't exactly increase the likelihood of it being true. Quite the opposite in fact.
    You're dealing with a world where most of those myths were quite likely true so no.

    Well, compared to say, traveling back in time, it might as well be.

    This is the bit that doesn't really make all that much sense to me. How is bringing back the dead in a verse where there are literal Veils of Death and actual ghosts walking around more impressive than traveling through time and generally making the laws of physics cry?
    Because the latter is possible. The rules of the verse are allowing for that to be done with ease. (Note: Ghost aren't actually the person who died, just an imprint left by that person)

    We have several examples of death not being easy to mess with, and basically being the one rule that kind of works there.

    So basically it is more impressive because the verse presents it as such.

    Hence the wizard who initially invented it being particularly exceptional. So much so that the wizard's story has gained a mythical status.

    The thing which you seem to be missing here is that the alternative explanation provided in the story implied that the wizard was really ridiculously powerful/skilled to the extent that his work was truly inimitable. This, opposed to the personification of Death showing up and giving the wizards the items.
    Yeah, one wizard.

    I don't care how ridiculously skilled you are, trial and error hold. With so damn many wizards (and no small amount of evil wizards), the fact that no one else stumbled upon (even by accident) something similar is ridiculous.

    Mileage may vary, of course. And clearly does.
    Obviously.
    Last edited by Hazard; 02-06-2013 at 01:06 PM.

  15. #75
    DOOM DEMANDS MORE NACHOS!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Estrecca View Post
    He has personally used Confringo (blasting curse, explosive effects), Diffindo (severing charm, mild cutting effects), Expecto Patronum (patronus, situationally useful), Expelliarmus (used around a zillion times), Impedimenta (momentary freezing/paralysis), Imperio (mind control, duh), Incarcerous (shoots ropes that tie the target), Langlock (freezes target's tongue), Levicorpus (makes target hang upside down, as if being held in mid-air by the ankle), Muffliato (makes things silent some distance from the caster), Petrificus Totalus (full body paralysis), Protego (shield charm), Engorgio (enlarging charm), Reducio (shrinking charm), Reducto (breaks target into pieces, disintegrates target), Rictusempra (tickling curse), Sectumsempra (severe cutting effects, causes cursed wounds that are difficult to heal), Stupefy (stunner spell), Wingardium Leviosa (levitation of non-organics) and some other minor ones, such as Cruciatus (which he cannot get to work right).
    He also used Hermione's set of protection charms for their campsite, didn't he? That included protego but also confundus, unplottable, muggle-blocking and all kinds of other crap.

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