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  1. #91
    Senior Member blakkrussian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    Faora was established as having a power that could control men, thus allowing her to control the other Phantom Zoners when she debuted in the 70's. The tension was would she be able to control Clark and ultimately, she couldn't because he had spent the majority of his life on Earth and thus his powers were at their peak. She and the others had been in the Phantom Zone more than they had been out of it. This was downplayed in her subsequent appearances. Ursa was established as being a deadly soldier who was skilled in combat, thus she could put up a fight against Superman, who was mostly a brawler.

    Besides, Batman's image wasn't hurt fighting Catwoman in "Batman Returns" and Wolverine was just fine after fighting Mystique and Deathstrike in the first two "X-Men" films.



    You're jumping to conclusions. Odds are that he'll get his ass handed to him by both Zod and Faora and then comes back to beat them.



    No, that's par for course. I suggest reading some comics and watching the other media.
    It's not so much male heroes losing to females, i have no problem with that most of the time. What i am saying is that celluloid Superman is a loser because he hasn't been allowed to be a superMAN since the Reeves days. Bryan Singer actually said Superman returns was a 'chick flick'. Why would you be making a Superman as a chick flick? batman films wer not chick flicks. Hulk films were not chick flicks. iron man films wer not chick flicks. captain America, Thor were not made to be chick flicks. who are they making Superman films for? We all know the answer. Now i hear that Man of Steel is going to get a major beatdown , worse ever from Faora. Not Zod, but Faora. Thats why Superman films are failing, they are emasculating him. We all know Clark is a softy boyscout at heart but we all know when it comes to fighting, he is supposed to be a beast. As long as comeback is a bitch for Zod and Co ( mostly in a physical way) i'm fine with all that, but i really fear we are in for another chick flick at heart.

    What o DO know for a fact is that films execs are Not going to have superman beating up a woman in the film. It will make Him look like some woman beater, so NO i am not expecting a Superman arsekicking Faora moment. Women beating men on film? Oh thats fine. No problem to Hollywood.All the examples you mentioned are men and women fighting with fancy kicks and flicks and balletic cartoonish like dancing moves, no one takes it seriously as people do not really fight like that. Now Superman is not a martial artist so Supes punching Faora in the face or the gut would be too 'real' for audiences and is not going to happen, which is fine i don't really want to see that either, but shouldn't it work both ways or not at all?

    Gone are the days when people would look up in the sky and say 'Superman will save us'. Now you will get some whipped eunuch who can only grow some bollocks with some kind of female validation from Lois. Now i could be wrong but from reading what i have about the production i fear i may not be.
    Last edited by blakkrussian; 02-12-2013 at 11:05 PM.

  2. #92
    Senior Member PretenderNX01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    Well, let's look at it like this. Batman was defined by Adam West for years until Michael Keaton changed that perception. Val Kilmer and George Clooney had a lot to live up to and then we had Christian Bale. So it is possible that Henry Cavil can be viewed in a different light from Christopher Reeve and be accepted.
    Don't forget the public has had Dean Cain and Tom Welling in between Reeve and Cavil. Both of them had to live up to not being "really Superman" but still won their fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by blakkrussian View Post
    As for Superman's relationship with Lois, but don't you think they went a bit overboard with Superman Returns?
    What relationship? Lois seemed to hate Superman in Superman Returns. I never saw a relationship there.

    Quote Originally Posted by blakkrussian View Post
    Now i could be wrong but from reading what i have about the production i fear i may not be.
    Perhaps "wait and see" for speculation on whether Superman is a Eunuch who can only fly with a woman in favor of him? Have you seen actual footage of the battles? Or are you just relying on what some "reporter" thinks makes their scoop really juicy?

    If Bryan Singer thought "Superman Returns" was a chick flick, he has an unusual opinion of what a chick flick is.

    I'd say "Iron Man" was popular with women and it presented a troubled man with a strong woman by his side (played by Gwyneth Paltrow, "Emma" no less). Captain America embraced his 1940s roots and the females I know were fond of it, he had a date with a pretty girl but missed it being frozen in ice. Thor walked around shirtless with Natalie Portman of "Pride and Prejudice" helping him hide his identity. I only saw Marvel's first Hulk movie which was pretty heavy with his relationship to Betty.
    And we all saw Black Widow in Avengers.

    So far I don't see anything more than what Marvel has been praised for.

  3. #93
    Senior Member blakkrussian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PretenderNX01 View Post
    What relationship? Lois seemed to hate Superman in Superman Returns. I never saw a relationship there.
    As i stated in my earlier post the relationship with Superman in 'Returns'was Lois as the strong one and Superman as a voyeuristic wimpstalker who was all emo over her. Hardly Alpha male superhero behaviour


    Quote Originally Posted by PretenderNX01 View Post
    Perhaps "wait and see" for speculation on whether Superman is a Eunuch who can only fly with a woman in favor of him? Have you seen actual footage of the battles? Or are you just relying on what some "reporter" thinks makes their scoop really juicy?

    This is Feora. A armoured up warrior martial artist.It safe to assume she is gonna fight.
    these are supposed spoilers
    http://movies.cosmicbooknews.com/con...oiler-revealed
    Stills from movie. They are not dancing.
    http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit.../news/?a=45663
    Now i do not have to be Bruce Wayne piecing things together to know Faora and superman will fight and she willbeat him up as as i said the image of Superman beating the hell out of a girl on celluloid will not be happening. Which he would need to do to win. Disagree all you want. Men beating on women in film would not sit right with audiences. Superman Smashing what appears to be a woman up in a rebooted movie? This would kill the franchise before it even started.

    Quote Originally Posted by PretenderNX01 View Post
    If Bryan Singer thought "Superman Returns" was a chick flick, he has an unusual opinion of what a chick flick is.
    http://www.starpulse.com/news/index....k_flick_with_p

    Ask him, he said it. Maybe it was because that piece of celluloid garbage was more about Lois Lanes 'empowerment' as a strong single parent that didn't need a man or even a Superman, rather than the guy the film was supposed to be about. A bloody hallmark channel piece of nonsense with capes in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PretenderNX01 View Post
    I'd say "Iron Man" was popular with women and it presented a troubled man with a strong woman by his side (played by Gwyneth Paltrow, "Emma" no less). Captain America embraced his 1940s roots and the females I know were fond of it, he had a date with a pretty girl but missed it being frozen in ice. Thor walked around shirtless with Natalie Portman of "Pride and Prejudice" helping him hide his identity. I only saw Marvel's first Hulk movie which was pretty heavy with his relationship to Betty.
    And we all saw Black Widow in Avengers.
    Thor, Iron Man, Cap and Hulk were not emo stalkers who mooned after a woman for 200 out of 245 minutes or whatever. Then got beaten to a pulp by one of the guys from Harold and Kumar. Did Superman even throw apunch in anger? Really? Pathetic. Thor and co They got busy and kicked arse. That's the difference. Thor vs Destroyer, Hulk vs Abomination, Cap vs Red Skull, Iron Man vs Iron Monger as opposed to Superman Lifting heavy things and moping. These films were not 'chick flicks' by any stretch of the imagination.

    Quote Originally Posted by PretenderNX01 View Post
    So far I don't see anything more than what Marvel has been praised for.
    This isn't a Marvel vs Dc film debate. It just happens that the Marvel Heroes were not emo wimps who were whipped for most of the running time.
    Last edited by blakkrussian; 02-13-2013 at 10:45 AM.

  4. #94
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blakkrussian View Post
    It's not so much male heroes losing to females, i have no problem with that most of the time. What i am saying is that celluloid Superman is a loser because he hasn't been allowed to be a superMAN since the Reeves days. Bryan Singer actually said Superman returns was a 'chick flick'. Why would you be making a Superman as a chick flick? batman films wer not chick flicks. Hulk films were not chick flicks. iron man films wer not chick flicks. captain America, Thor were not made to be chick flicks. who are they making Superman films for? We all know the answer. Now i hear that Man of Steel is going to get a major beatdown , worse ever from Faora. Not Zod, but Faora. Thats why Superman films are failing, they are emasculating him. We all know Clark is a softy boyscout at heart but we all know when it comes to fighting, he is supposed to be a beast. As long as comeback is a bitch for Zod and Co ( mostly in a physical way) i'm fine with all that, but i really fear we are in for another chick flick at heart.
    Singer wasn't exactly targeting women specifically. What he was doing was concentrating more on the relationship between Clark and Lois, than on the action portion of the story. You have to remember that the first film did focus quite a bit on establishing the romance between Superman and Lois Lane, since as Donner stated, "You have to believe that these two would fall in love". It wasn't until the second film that Superman fought someone. In the first film, he was still doing heroic rescues and stuff. Singer's intention with the second film under his tenure, was to have it be action packed and have a villain that Clark could cut loose on. He likened "Superman Returns" to being like a chick flick, since it focused on the relationship.

    What o DO know for a fact is that films execs are Not going to have superman beating up a woman in the film. It will make Him look like some woman beater, so NO i am not expecting a Superman arsekicking Faora moment. Women beating men on film? Oh thats fine. No problem to Hollywood.All the examples you mentioned are men and women fighting with fancy kicks and flicks and balletic cartoonish like dancing moves, no one takes it seriously as people do not really fight like that. Now Superman is not a martial artist so Supes punching Faora in the face or the gut would be too 'real' for audiences and is not going to happen, which is fine i don't really want to see that either, but shouldn't it work both ways or not at all?
    You don't know that Superman won't punch out Faora in this film. And even if he doesn't punch her, he can still do stuff that can hurt her. As to fighting styles, no, no one fights like that. But then it would be boring if people fought like they do in real life. Asian cinema perfected the art of entertaining martial arts fight scenes, which is why they started being employed in Western cinema.

    Gone are the days when people would look up in the sky and say 'Superman will save us'. Now you will get some whipped eunuch who can only grow some bollocks with some kind of female validation from Lois. Now i could be wrong but from reading what i have about the production i fear i may not be.
    People will still say that, as they always have. Regardless of Lois giving him encouragement.

    As i stated in my earlier post the relationship with Superman in 'Returns'was Lois as the strong one and Superman as a voyeuristic wimpstalker who was all emo over her. Hardly Alpha male superhero behaviour
    Right. Cause he didn't then do a bunch of heroic stuff like stop the Earthquake damage in Metropolis, rescued Lois and then lifted up an entire island and toss it into space. Yeah, that's not alpha stuff.

    Now i do not have to be Bruce Wayne piecing things together to know Faora and superman will fight and she willbeat him up as as i said the image of Superman beating the hell out of a girl on celluloid will not be happening. Which he would need to do to win. Disagree all you want. Men beating on women in film would not sit right with audiences. Superman Smashing what appears to be a woman up in a rebooted movie? This would kill the franchise before it even started.
    Didn't stop Clint Eastwood's character from punching out a woman in "Play Misty For Me". In "The Matrix Reloaded", Trinity got her ass kicked by an Agent. No one bitched about that. Doug Quad got his ass kicked by his "wife" Laurie in "Total Recall" and didn't hurt Arnold's image. Same with the Terminator and the T-X in "Terminator 3". In both films, he punched the females. Batman backhanded Catwoman twice in "Batman Returns" and caught a kick, before dropping her on her head. Wolverine punched and kicked Mystique and Deathstrike, even going so far as to stab them with his claws. We don't know what will happen, people might actually cheer when Superman cold clocks Faora. If Batman and Wolverine can come out unscathed, so can Superman.

    Thor, Iron Man, Cap and Hulk were not emo stalkers who mooned after a woman for 200 out of 245 minutes or whatever
    Bruce Banner did emo after Betty in "Incredible Hulk" and then took a beating from the Abomination later in the film, before beating him. According to "Iron Man 3", Tony's worried about Pepper being in danger from the Mandarin and himself. We haven't seen "Captain America: The Winter Soldier" yet. Thor was concerned about Jane at the end of his film.

  5. #95
    Senior Member blakkrussian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    Singer wasn't exactly targeting women specifically. What he was doing was concentrating more on the relationship between Clark and Lois, than on the action portion of the story. You have to remember that the first film did focus quite a bit on establishing the romance between Superman and Lois Lane, since as Donner stated, "You have to believe that these two would fall in love". It wasn't until the second film that Superman fought someone. In the first film, he was still doing heroic rescues and stuff. Singer's intention with the second film under his tenure, was to have it be action packed and have a villain that Clark could cut loose on. He likened "Superman Returns" to being like a chick flick, since it focused on the relationship.
    The first film was all about the origin and the 'you'll believe a man can fly'. That was the tagline and what the whole film was geared up for, People put up with the Lois and Clark substory in anticipation of the flying scenes. The special effects were supposed to be the thing. They kept the flying parts under wraps and never showed them even in ads before the movie came out. I remember it like yesterday i was a little comicbook freak who ate up every scrap of info on the film. Ads, tv film review programmes everything. i had mum buy me all the mags and specials, i was so excited to finally be seeing a comicbook come to life with a Star Wars budget. Man, i came out of the theatre exhilitrated at the flying scenes. The film literally flew by ( no pun intended)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    You don't know that Superman won't punch out Faora in this film. And even if he doesn't punch her, he can still do stuff that can hurt her. As to fighting styles, no, no one fights like that. But then it would be boring if people fought like they do in real life. Asian cinema perfected the art of entertaining martial arts fight scenes, which is why they started being employed in Western cinema.
    Supes would only be justified punching Faora out if she kills an innocent or a kid. That would get the audience onside definately. We'll see, but i will do a bet with you that i am right. See you back here in June.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    Right. Cause he didn't then do a bunch of heroic stuff like stop the Earthquake damage in Metropolis, rescued Lois and then lifted up an entire island and toss it into space. Yeah, that's not alpha stuff.
    Yeah reeaall Alpha. Tell me again why the film was a flop and is being rebooted 6 years already?
    http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit.../news/?a=33821
    Director himself even said he made it with women in mind. By all means cater to the female audience in a mainly male orientated fanboy film subject matter, but remember what the film is supposed to be about,and who for, a big tough guy from space who shoots rays out of his eyes, catches criminals and fights aliens. Not Fried green tomatoes. Even when he was doing the things you mentioned in SR, it was done int the way you would a film a chocolate or tampax ad, all arty farty, trying to be 'symbolic' Supes as some Christ figure metafor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    Didn't stop Clint Eastwood's character from punching out a woman in "Play Misty For Me". In "The Matrix Reloaded", Trinity got her ass kicked by an Agent. No one bitched about that. Doug Quad got his ass kicked by his "wife" Laurie in "Total Recall" and didn't hurt Arnold's image. Same with the Terminator and the T-X in "Terminator 3". In both films, he punched the females. Batman backhanded Catwoman twice in "Batman Returns" and caught a kick, before dropping her on her head. Wolverine punched and kicked Mystique and Deathstrike, even going so far as to stab them with his claws. We don't know what will happen, people might actually cheer when Superman cold clocks Faora. If Batman and Wolverine can come out unscathed, so can Superman.
    Play misty for me. Total Recall, Terminator are family films? Really? Please don't compare 'R' rated and adult orientated or films for older teens to films based on kiddies comics. The protagonist in 'Misty' was a psycho who sliced up Clint's housekeeper and tried to kill him and his girlfriend. It was adult subject matter done in a realistic style.Superman is not Wolverine or a Clint Eastwood character. Superman is not a borderline psycho killing machine. He is more likely to give a criminal a good talking to unlike Wolverine who would beat the crap out of a criminal if he is having a good day and does not wish to slice up anyone. Lets face it if you have a Wolverine film with no deaths and slashing you would get an instant FAIL. Wolverine is a violent character who inhabits a violent world of killers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    Bruce Banner did emo after Betty in "Incredible Hulk" and then took a beating from the Abomination later in the film, before beating him. According to "Iron Man 3", Tony's worried about Pepper being in danger from the Mandarin and himself. We haven't seen "Captain America: The Winter Soldier" yet. Thor was concerned about Jane at the end of his film.
    All films have love interest angles, practically 99%, but you are taking little incidents from major action films and comparing them to a Superman flick where he never even fought anybody for nearly 3 hours, just moped about like some goth kid and got his butt kicked by a guy I could kick crap out of mand this is supposed to be a film about the toughest most powerful superhero in comics? huh? What?
    Last edited by blakkrussian; 02-13-2013 at 01:29 PM.

  6. #96
    evil maybe, genius no stk's Avatar
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    "Faora's kick caused a reflex-action in my Kryptonian body! There's nothing I can do to stop screaming!"

    lol classic. Nice rationalization for why you are crying out like a wuss, Superman.

  7. #97
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blakkrussian View Post
    The first film was all about the origin and the 'you'll believe a man can fly'. That was the tagline and what the whole film was geared up for, People put up with the Lois and Clark substory in anticipation of the flying scenes. The special effects were supposed to be the thing. They kept the flying parts under wraps and never showed them even in ads before the movie came out. I remember it like yesterday i was a little comicbook freak who ate up every scrap of info on the film. Ads, tv film review programmes everything. i had mum buy me all the mags and specials, i was so excited to finally be seeing a comicbook come to life with a Star Wars budget. Man, i came out of the theatre exhilitrated at the flying scenes. The film literally flew by ( no pun intended)
    I'm not saying that that didn't have an impact on the film. But Richard Donner has said in many interviews, as well as the commentary, that the relationship between Lois and Superman was an important driving force for both the first and second film. Spending time on the interview and the flying sequence set up Superman's actions at the end of the film, as well as the driving action of the second film.

    Supes would only be justified punching Faora out if she kills an innocent or a kid. That would get the audience onside definately. We'll see, but i will do a bet with you that i am right. See you back here in June.
    He can be justified punching her out because she's trying to kill him. Audiences only take issues with men hitting women in the context of the man is evil, the woman is good. When it's the other way around, they don't mind. See those other films that I listed.

    Yeah reeaall Alpha. Tell me again why the film was a flop and is being rebooted 6 years already?
    http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit.../news/?a=33821
    Director himself even said he made it with women in mind. By all means cater to the female audience in a mainly male orientated fanboy film subject matter, but remember what the film is supposed to be about,and who for, a big tough guy from space who shoots rays out of his eyes, catches criminals and fights aliens. Not Fried green tomatoes. Even when he was doing the things you mentioned in SR, it was done int the way you would a film a chocolate or tampax ad, all arty farty, trying to be 'symbolic' Supes as some Christ figure metafor.
    Donner also had the Christ symbolism in his films. The rocket looking like a star, the Phantom Zone resembling hell, Jor-El sending his son to Earth to be its savior, Clark turning his back on Jor-El to be with Lois, the battle against the Phantom Zoners being similar to the idea of Christ battling against Satan.

    Play misty for me. Total Recall, Terminator are family films? Really? Please don't compare 'R' rated and adult orientated or films for older teens to films based on kiddies comics. The protagonist in 'Misty' was a psycho who sliced up Clint's housekeeper and tried to kill him and his girlfriend. It was adult subject matter done in a realistic style.
    Doesn't matter if it is family friendly. The fact is that the big macho man punched out a woman and didn't hurt the reputations of the male leads.

    Superman is not Wolverine or a Clint Eastwood character. Superman is not a borderline psycho killing machine. He is more likely to give a criminal a good talking to unlike Wolverine who would beat the crap out of a criminal if he is having a good day and does not wish to slice up anyone. Lets face it if you have a Wolverine film with no deaths and slashing you would get an instant FAIL. Wolverine is a violent character who inhabits a violent world of killers.
    Doesn't matter. Wolverine still attacked women and is a comic book character seen by children who watched the films and the cartoons. Same with Batman.

    All films have love interest angles, practically 99%, but you are taking little incidents from major action films and comparing them to a Superman flick where he never even fought anybody for nearly 3 hours, just moped about like some goth kid and got his butt kicked by a guy I could kick crap out of mand this is supposed to be a film about the toughest most powerful superhero in comics? huh? What?
    "Superman II" established the Superman had never been in a fight and had never been hurt, which is why Rocky was able to beat him up in Don's Diner, when Clark was powerless. So you're argument about beating up Lex is moot, since with Kryptonite all around him, Clark is powerless. Not to mention he was facing two guys that had been in prison for years and had fought and killed men.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ntikrst View Post
    That would be an incredibly stupid thing to do, given the abysmal failure of Superman Returns. Reeve is dead, the Silver Age is over.

    MoS is going to be Smallville the Movie, on steroids. If that doesn't set the world on fire, Superman's finished in hollywood.
    Reeve's films had nothing in common with Silver Age Superman.
    Doomed Planet. Desperate Scientists. Last Hope. Kindly Couple.

  9. #99
    Junior Member Camoron's Avatar
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    If Superman 4 couldn't "break" Superman, Man of Steel almost certainly won't either.

    I would have referenced Superman Returns but it really wasn't that much of a failure. Most of the critics and the audience that went to see it actually liked the film. It's really just comic book fans that seem to have a largely negative view of it.

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