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  1. #46
    Optic Blast, Optic Blast B. Kuwanger's Avatar
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    Also doesn't hurt that that Cassaday avatar is sweet as bear meat.

  2. #47
    Mattress Tester T Hedge Coke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    But it didn't add something new, the way he arguably did in his other works.
    Ain't nothing new.

    But Planetary did and does have novelty. It was attempting a comprehensive mapping of pop culture, with a thoroughness and ruthlessness unmatched, I think, in comics. It's detournment of basic serial fiction "world like ours" tropes that we'd accepted, such as isolating or stockpiling wonders away from the populace, was excellently handled, and simultaneously criticized nearly every other comic out there, but also highlighted why that sort of MO is necessary to keep those ongoings ongoing. The idea of standalone stories that linked up, which the series sustained nearly the entire time, was novel for its time, when most American comic books were a steady stream of soap rolling over issue to issue with decreasing attempts to craft a beginning and end, much less a thematic point to a single issue's nominal story. The emphasis on saving over fighting should not be underrated, nor the foregrounding of the simple idea that villainy ought not be tolerated. Snow wasn't waiting for the Planetary to come public and make a statement of terrorism, he was breaking into their buildings and taking their stuff because $%$# them.

    Further, each smaller examination of a genre or particular entertainment is a wealth of extrapolations, and of tools denuded of mystique. The kaiju issue is both a guideline for a kind of giant monster movie we hadn't really seen yet, outside the smiling while Godzilla leaves scenes, but it was also a bit of magical realism parable of cultism, militarism, and old, big, dinosaurs that the world passed by.

  3. #48
    Elder Member Libaax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    I think my avatar should make it clear that I didn't mean to be saying Planetary isn't good or even great, far from it in fact. I think the plotting is great, but the meta-commentary is what I didn't think was that great or insightful.

    I guess Ellis does a good job in putting things in perspective. But it didn't add something new, the way he arguably did in his other works.
    That doesnt mean anything to me because none of us read comics just to get something new and dont care if its good or bad. I can get something new from crappy writers anytime. I rather read great story in the same old type of story and characters. In Superhero there isnt much new to add just like in most genres. There are rarely Dark Knight Returns or Watchman type inventions going on today.

    Ellis has rarely ever done anything new, added something that i have read other than when he created Authority characters and wrote Wildstorm mature superhero team different from DC/MU superhero teams, The widescreen style that has been copied alot since then. Fell isnt anything new, Nextwave isnt new idea, Thunderbolts old old news, Iron Man.....
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libaax View Post
    That doesnt mean anything to me because none of us read comics just to get something new and dont care if its good or bad. I can get something new from crappy writers anytime. I rather read great story in the same old type of story and characters.
    On the other hand, I can't do that. I've dropped most of my DC books because I'm tired of reading the same thing over and over.

    But that's kind of irrelevant to Planetary, because Planetary is at least different enough. No, not everything needs to be ground breaking, but if it's going to be hailed as a masterpiece, then yeah forgive me for expecting more from a book.

    In Superhero there isnt much new to add just like in most genres. There are rarely Dark Knight Returns or Watchman type inventions going on today.
    Again I'm not saying Planetary needs to b Dark Knight Returns or Watchmen. But that's kind of a false dichotomy, that a book is either completely redefining like that or it does nothing new.

    I'm simply talking about expectations.

    Ellis has rarely ever done anything new, added something that i have read other than when he created Authority characters and wrote Wildstorm mature superhero team different from DC/MU superhero teams, The widescreen style that has been copied alot since then. Fell isnt anything new, Nextwave isnt new idea, Thunderbolts old old news, Iron Man.....
    Sure, but I'm not the one hailing it as his greatest work ever.
    Last edited by Mr. Holmes; 02-09-2013 at 10:57 AM.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Hedge Coke View Post
    Ain't nothing new.

    But Planetary did and does have novelty. It was attempting a comprehensive mapping of pop culture, with a thoroughness and ruthlessness unmatched, I think, in comics. It's detournment of basic serial fiction "world like ours" tropes that we'd accepted, such as isolating or stockpiling wonders away from the populace, was excellently handled, and simultaneously criticized nearly every other comic out there, but also highlighted why that sort of MO is necessary to keep those ongoings ongoing. The idea of standalone stories that linked up, which the series sustained nearly the entire time, was novel for its time, when most American comic books were a steady stream of soap rolling over issue to issue with decreasing attempts to craft a beginning and end, much less a thematic point to a single issue's nominal story. The emphasis on saving over fighting should not be underrated, nor the foregrounding of the simple idea that villainy ought not be tolerated. Snow wasn't waiting for the Planetary to come public and make a statement of terrorism, he was breaking into their buildings and taking their stuff because $%$# them.

    Further, each smaller examination of a genre or particular entertainment is a wealth of extrapolations, and of tools denuded of mystique. The kaiju issue is both a guideline for a kind of giant monster movie we hadn't really seen yet, outside the smiling while Godzilla leaves scenes, but it was also a bit of magical realism parable of cultism, militarism, and old, big, dinosaurs that the world passed by.
    Yeah I'm not saying it doesn't have novelty, I was just expecting something else ultimately. That's a good way to put it though, it's a comprehensive mapping of 20th century pop culture.

    I haven't gotten through Morrison's Doom Patrol yet, but jeez, that book is loaded with pop culture homages, and unlike Planetary most of them went over my head.

  6. #51
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    Double post
    Last edited by Mr. Holmes; 02-09-2013 at 11:59 AM.

  7. #52
    Elder Member Libaax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    On the other hand, I can't do that. I've dropped most of my DC books because I'm tired of reading the same thing over and over.

    But that's kind of irrelevant to Planetary, because Planetary is at least different enough. No, not everything needs to be ground breaking, but if it's going to be hailed as a masterpiece, then yeah forgive me for expecting more from a book.



    Again I'm not saying Planetary needs to b Dark Knight Returns or Watchmen. But that's kind of a false dichotomy, that a book is either completely redefining like that or it does nothing new.

    I'm simply talking about expectations.



    Sure, but I'm not the one hailing it as his greatest work ever.
    I dropped many DC comics,superheroes too recently doing the same thing over and over again because of their generic quality and not because there are nothing new.

    I think its all in the expectations, you expected a redefining comic and i expected a quality comics no matter its homage to older pop culture. I rate it high because of its characters and storytelling. The pastiche,homage parts was not my fav part. Im not saying its his greatest work ever, i think his best is one Authority arc personally.

    But say you expect more from masterpiece other than being a novel idea is was what i meant. I have trouble only with the idea that Planetary must be real original idea, be something really new to be great. If you think its just not good enough for any other reason its very understandable, just have to disagree.

    For example im reading Watchman right now and i dont buy it into the hype of its rep, fanboy love. Because if i did it could never be great enough to match all the hype. I have to judge like i have never heard of Watchman before. I think the art is dated worse than Frank Miller brilliant art in TDKR but i can see why Alan Moore writing is so hailed for the book.

    Hype is the enemy when you read comics like Planetary and Watchman who are so loved by critics and fans.
    Last edited by Libaax; 02-09-2013 at 12:49 PM.
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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Libaax View Post
    That doesnt mean anything to me because none of us read comics just to get something new and dont care if its good or bad. I can get something new from crappy writers anytime. I rather read great story in the same old type of story and characters. In Superhero there isnt much new to add just like in most genres. There are rarely Dark Knight Returns or Watchman type inventions going on today.

    Ellis has rarely ever done anything new, added something that i have read other than when he created Authority characters and wrote Wildstorm mature superhero team different from DC/MU superhero teams, The widescreen style that has been copied alot since then. Fell isnt anything new, Nextwave isnt new idea, Thunderbolts old old news, Iron Man.....
    I would actually put Planetary above both Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen from an enjoyment standard for me. But I disagree that Planetary didn't bring anything new to the table. When was the last time you read a comic that featured a team of heroes who actually succeeded in their ultimate goal, and made the need for further stories go away? It's the main reason that I don't want this series to ever be touched by anyone ever again. Snow and Co accomplished their goal. It's over. That doesn't get to happen in comics very often.

    Not to mention that Warren Ellis is pretty much my favorite comic writer. There has been very little he has done that I haven't liked, but my enjoyment of Planetary transcends my enjoyment of Ellis. It is alone at the top of favorites list, and is the example that I always give for what a great comic book series can be. It is in no way overrated. If anything, it doesn't get the acclaim from the comic book reading community that it deserves. It kills me how many people have read a story about Batman fighting Joker a hundred times, but have never heard of or read Planetary.
    Writers before artists.
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  9. #54
    trevordraws.com Tar22's Avatar
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    Sometimes it's so easy to get caught up in the importance of Planetary's themes and ideas about the nature of fiction and its meta commentary on the comic book industry.

    But the fact is, I've read the series 3 times, and the last issue makes me cry every time. I truly loved going on that 27 issue journey with those characters.

    No way it's overrated.
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  10. #55
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    Eh, I'm not convinced. But I can agree to disagree.

  11. #56
    Mattress Tester T Hedge Coke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    I haven't gotten through Morrison's Doom Patrol yet, but jeez, that book is loaded with pop culture homages, and unlike Planetary most of them went over my head.
    I think the ones it Planetary are (maybe) more central to a basic enjoyment of the comic. The allusions and lifts in Morrison's Doom Patrol (and Pollack's followup) were more akin to yanking a part out of another car and shoving it into yours to do a job, while Planetary is a series of completely broken down and rebuilt cars. But while DP has a good deal to say about being a manufactured outsider and loneliness, Planetary is, I think, one of the strongest railings against "acceptable losses," unexamined class entitlement, and righteously directed pessimism and romanticism in the last twenty years of comics. It kept its philosophical/political/social head on straight for twenty-seven issues and three oneshots while never once pulling up from being pop and actiony, either.

    And, yeah, Planetary did break new ground in mainstream comics, not just the least of which being DC let the talent take their time and do it as they were ready to. That kind of leeway from a DC comic? That set precedent. Participation rights on a title fully owned by the publisher? Beyond that, there are several narrative and visual techniques that come in, including simply the widescreen panels of the Hong Kong Spectre issue or that Planetary ran hospitals and low-income housing outfits, that some mysteries were left intentionally open. Small things, perhaps, but how many "rescue and aid squad" revisions did we see on other team books after Planetary began? Planetary never sat down and made fun of anything they were homaging, either, it was never a cheap shot when there was criticism, they never once just lifted the surface elements and hoped to pass off the hollow shell of a genre or subgenre. Laura Martin and Dave Baron both kickstarted an era in coloring during Planetary and The Authority's early months. How much they raised the game shouldn't be downplayed or ignored.

  12. #57
    More human than human. Johnny P. Sartre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T Hedge Coke View Post
    I think the ones it Planetary are (maybe) more central to a basic enjoyment of the comic. The allusions and lifts in Morrison's Doom Patrol (and Pollack's followup) were more akin to yanking a part out of another car and shoving it into yours to do a job, while Planetary is a series of completely broken down and rebuilt cars. But while DP has a good deal to say about being a manufactured outsider and loneliness, Planetary is, I think, one of the strongest railings against "acceptable losses," unexamined class entitlement, and righteously directed pessimism and romanticism in the last twenty years of comics. It kept its philosophical/political/social head on straight for twenty-seven issues and three oneshots while never once pulling up from being pop and actiony, either.

    And, yeah, Planetary did break new ground in mainstream comics, not just the least of which being DC let the talent take their time and do it as they were ready to. That kind of leeway from a DC comic? That set precedent. Participation rights on a title fully owned by the publisher? Beyond that, there are several narrative and visual techniques that come in, including simply the widescreen panels of the Hong Kong Spectre issue or that Planetary ran hospitals and low-income housing outfits, that some mysteries were left intentionally open. Small things, perhaps, but how many "rescue and aid squad" revisions did we see on other team books after Planetary began? Planetary never sat down and made fun of anything they were homaging, either, it was never a cheap shot when there was criticism, they never once just lifted the surface elements and hoped to pass off the hollow shell of a genre or subgenre. Laura Martin and Dave Baron both kickstarted an era in coloring during Planetary and The Authority's early months. How much they raised the game shouldn't be downplayed or ignored.
    God, we need more of these in superhero comics.
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  13. #58
    Hey, Larry! Darrell D.'s Avatar
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    Planetary is the closest modern equivalent to Watchmen, to be honest.
    It's a piece of work that examines the tropes and genres, the way the Watchmen examined the techniques and storytelling possibilities of the medium.

  14. #59
    More human than human. Johnny P. Sartre's Avatar
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    What about Astro City?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darrell D. View Post
    Planetary is the closest modern equivalent to Watchmen, to be honest.
    It's a piece of work that examines the tropes and genres, the way the Watchmen examined the techniques and storytelling possibilities of the medium.
    That's an extreme stretch, I think. Specifically the structural elements that made Watchmen such an enduring piece of work, or the revolutionary nature of the subject matter, being so absent from Planetary.

    Mere critique of pop culture is not enough to warrant that kind of comparison. A book like "Enigma" warrants the comparison far more than does "Planetary".
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