Young Romance: A New 52 Valentine’s Day Special Preview: Superman & Wonder Woman

[the Sun God]

Nope, I was saying it could work in a similar but different way. Superman dates Wonder Woman and Lois dated Clark not Superman. You simply flip how their respective dynamics worked. Superman goes on more dates with Wonder Woman than Clark does with Diana. Lois did the same and she didn't have a second ID. She could be intimate with Superman because she was with Clark and it would look bad. She had to interview and speak to Superman in public as a friend or reporter never a lover. Even while she was with him and other heroes where around she couldn't really show affection if the hero didn't know who Clark was. But behind closed doors it was no holds bar.
What you get with Diana is that she would be able to be intimate with Superman more than Clark. Granted their relationship is still finding it's legs so they have been pretty secretive about it when it come to the JL but if and when that changes they will be able to show their love when not on a mission.......just like how Lois and Clark could show affection at work but they would try and keep it a bit more PG because they're on the job.....see the link?
And again Wonder Woman has no problem in her title or here in Young Romance putting on street clothes and going out with someone.....this is in noway out of character. Then we also have the fact that nobody actually notices her likely because of Superman's reasoning in JL. But he has been seen in her title out being normal.....just with no secret ID.
So yes in many ways this can work out just the same if written right.
This is more meta talk and you just assuming how people will take it based on how you feel......I don't feel this way so this really disproves what you are saying because you are generalizing. I already said that the meta concept of Superman and Lois is very good and solid........but again what if someone (me, other people who don't care) just doesn't care about the meta.
We've already learned that in Action comics Superman is Clark in part because Clark helps people in his own way making him a much needed hero to his world. So he wont stop being Clark just because he's dating a Superhero......he'll just be.....well.....dating a Superhero and then he goes home and goes to work.
You are also not taking into consideration the new 52's direction that Clark doesn't actually seem himself as a human at all. DC says that he's a bit more distant from humanity in the new 52 and a bit more alien in that he know's that he's NOT one of us and can never be one of us.
This is and interview with current (head writer of sorts) of the Superman main book Scott Lobdell:
http://geek-news.mtv.com/2013/01/03/...l-superman-16/
In this interview Scott is very clear on Superman's view on himself.
SL: I don't know that he can ever abandon it, at the end of the day, no matter how much he wants to be human, he's not. He's from another planet and that will also be the case, regardless of who raised him. While he spent the first two thirds of his life being a kid from Smallville, he's still a kid from Smallville, who was never truly human and had to hide that from his friends and the rest of the world. I know that a lot of people see Superman as this shining light on a hill, showing us how we can be the best of what we are and how humanity can rise to superhuman heights, but I always look at that as scant, because at the end of the day, Superman can do things that none of us can ever, ever do. And so this notion that Superman would see himself as an ideal, I don't see him that way. I see him as a person who lives on a planet not his own and trying to use his powers to do what's best for the rest of the people that live here. I don't think he's going to view himself as an outsider, that kind of James Dean, not-fitting-in outsider, as much as he has to be aware every time he looks at those around him that he's not part of us. That doesn't mean he has to be sad about it, or anything. But I do think he's always going to be Superman.
He very clearly says that Superman know that he will never ever be one of us but it doesn't have him all bent out of shape. He's fine with being an alien who grew up in smallvillw now he Superman. Superman DOES NOT IDENTIFY HIMSELF AS A HUMAN IN ANYWAY.
This doesn't mean that he doesn't have a lot in of similarities with us, more so than he may even have with a kryptonian, but he know that he's just not one of us and he can't be no matter who he dates. He can only protect and help us but never truly assimilate with us.
So no he doesn't particularly need to seek love with a human to be happy in the new 52 because he's very happy with himself. The validation that some people think Superman needs to function in his life is just disturbing to me. Wonder Woman just makes him feel comfortable she doesn't validate his Superman ID as you seem to suggest that Lois and a human romantic relationship does for his Clark side. Like if he's not dating a human then Clark stops being a part of his life.....that's wrong by definition. Superman has maintained his Clark side just fine for 20 plus years in the new 52 without being with a human girl.
I think you're assuming too much.
I don't dispute that this couldn't happen but it also could not. Also this runs off the topic to branding and not the actual story which was my original point and reason for even posting.
My two cents on this: I think you are dipping largely from your own personal Superman (1980's it seems) and just assuming that, that is the bar for all Superman to get to. But that's wrong in the sense that it's just not true; the Sliver age Superman was very much Superman 1st Clark 2nd. He didn't himself as a human in any way shape or form. He also didn't need any human girl to validate his love for humanity; Lois was only one of the girl that he liked.

I agree with you Superlad, unfortunately I enter the thread just now, but next time I will come to your aid (if I feel like it of course). You don't have to defend your ideas alone anymore, bro.

[Superlad93]

I agree with you Superlad, unfortunately I enter the thread just now, but next time I will come to your aid (if I feel like it of course). You don't have to defend your ideas alone anymore.

Hahaha, Thanks a lot man

[the Sun God]

Hahaha, Thanks a lot man

You're welcome.

Today, I read the first issue of Adam Strange: Planet Heist (we talked about it yesterday, remember?), and I have to say that so far I'm liking Diggle's writing. But it is too early to judge, I have left to read other 7 issues.

[Superlad93]

You're welcome.

Today, I read the first issue of Adam Strange: Planet Heist (we talked about it yesterday, remember?), and I have to say that so far I'm liking Diggle's writing. But it is too early to judge, I have left to read other 7 issues.

Yeah I remember. I'm really glad you liked what you read so far, makes me want to pick it up even more now. I think I'll try getting it next week.

It's to early to tell I'd imagine but did Diggle have big ideas in that book?

[Self-DCeit]

misslane38:

How do you claim this:

In other words, I'm not being critical because I enjoy nitpicking something to encourage an "us vs. them" dynamic. I honestly believe the Superman and Wonder Woman relationship is being handled poorly.

And then follow up with this:

It is an odd word choice. Frankly, the diction used to describe Superman and Wonder Woman's relationship within all of the books it appears has been notably lackluster. The problem with the "current lover" term (besides the unnecessary use of the word "current") is that it's not a word one would typically use to describe a relationship that has more going for it than the physical. It kind puts Diana in the position of being just the sex partner rather than identifying her relationship to Superman as one that is both physical (kisses) and emotional (friends). The word "his" does hint at possession, of course, since it is a possessive pronoun. There's nothing wrong with Diana being his, especially in Superman's own book. But Wonder Woman shouldn't always be introduced solely through her romantic connection to Superman. So a description of Wonder Woman as Superman's girlfriend should perhaps be expanded to acknowledge who she is outside of the relationship. Lois Lane, for example, could have been described as Superman's wife and as a journalist. Also, outside of Superman titles, the distribution of "his" and "her" should be as equal as possible. Over identifying Wonder Woman in relation to Superman in DCU would send the message that Diana's significance is defined by a man.

I can't even fathom the level of nitpicking it takes for one to come up with this amount of verbiage about so trivial a detail. Not only that, you immediately had to post a montage of jpegs and gifs of Superman having had sex with Lois Lane in previous continuities or other media adaptations of the character, just because someone hypothesized in jest that the current Superman is "desperate for some sex". Your actions belie your words and you're doing exactly what you claim not to be doing, which is obsessing over minutiae that don't even concern the titular character of these very boards, and reacting to perceived slights to the Clark/Lois relationship in almost entrenching fashion.

You're well within your rights to believe the Superman/Wonder Woman relationship is being handled poorly. I disagree, partly because I don't really expect Pride and Prejudice in a Superman book, partly because it's not an aspect that concerns me greatly in a Superman book, and mostly because I think it's being handled just fine for what it is: A super-powered romance in a Superman book (and Justice League too). It is perfectly consistent with what we've seen from the characters so far in this continuity (your mileage may and probably does vary), it makes sense to all but the most diehard Team Lois members, and has barely taken off yet, what with H'El and Atlantis thrown into the mix.

Tell you what, why don't you give it more than two violently cut short dates and two kisses to see where it goes? It has been no more cliché than Superman and Lois' first meetings in any previous continuity, and it's certainly different, if nothing else.

[Self-DCeit]

I was going to defend Snyder by claiming that it's common for people to have crutch words, but then I laughed.

[the Sun God]

Yeah I remember. I'm really glad you liked what you read so far, makes me want to pick it up even more now. I think I'll try getting it next week.

It's to early to tell I'd imagine but did Diggle have big ideas in that book?

I liked Strange's inner monologues, I liked how Diggle introduces the overall story and how presents Strange's origins in flashbacks, most of the issue is spoken and the dialogues are good, in the latest pages there's an action scene in flight. The story so far seems to mix genres, it begins as a thriller-mystery with a questioning by the police, and then add the sci-fi element through the Strange's origins and the attack of an alien monster at the end of the issue. A good read.

[misslane38]

What you get with Diana is that she would be able to be intimate with Superman more than Clark. Granted their relationship is still finding it's legs so they have been pretty secretive about it when it come to the JL but if and when that changes they will be able to show their love when not on a mission.......just like how Lois and Clark could show affection at work but they would try and keep it a bit more PG because they're on the job.....see the link?

What your analysis seems to be missing is taking into account what happens if Superman and Wonder Woman eventually, let's say, get married. What happens then? Does Superman abandon his human life in Metropolis? Does Wonder Woman get a secret identity to be Clark Kent's wife? Where do they live? Do they live in the Fortress? Lois and Clark could live together without disrupting either one of their lives. If Superman and Wonder Woman want to live together someday, then they're either going to need to live together as Superman and Wonder Woman somewhere outside their civilian lives or Wonder Woman is going to have to adapt by adopting a dual identity. Any long-term life plans they have with each other would require, in my opinion, much more compromise.

And again Wonder Woman has no problem in her title or here in Young Romance putting on street clothes and going out with someone.....this is in noway out of character. Then we also have the fact that nobody actually notices her likely because of Superman's reasoning in JL. But he has been seen in her title out being normal.....just with no secret ID.

I don't think the conceit that no one recognizes Wonder Woman in public can be continued indefinitely. Superman's glasses disguise gets plenty of heat for its implausibility, so Diana going incognito without a disguise is even more ludicrous.

I already said that the meta concept of Superman and Lois is very good and solid........but again what if someone (me, other people who don't care) just doesn't care about the meta.

The meta makes the mythology. Undermining it undermines the mythology. Mixing two mythologies -- Superman's and Wonder Woman's -- is even worse. If the integrity of Superman and Wonder Woman's mythology must be weakened so fans of Superman and Wonder Woman get what they want, then it's a sad day for Superman.

We've already learned that in Action comics Superman is Clark in part because Clark helps people in his own way making him a much needed hero to his world. So he wont stop being Clark just because he's dating a Superhero......he'll just be.....well.....dating a Superhero and then he goes home and goes to work.

When was the last time we saw Superman doing any work as Clark Kent or spending any sort of significant time with his human friends?

You are also not taking into consideration the new 52's direction that Clark doesn't actually seem himself as a human at all. DC says that he's a bit more distant from humanity in the new 52 and a bit more alien in that he know's that he's NOT one of us and can never be one of us.

This is a good thing?

every time he looks at those around him that he's not part of us.

My ideal Superman is one who recognizes that he's different from the rest of us yet still feels like he's accepted and connected to us. A Superman who is not connected to humanity -- to humans -- in any significant way betrayas the relationship he had with his adoptive parents. Kal-El may not have been Jonathan and Martha Kent's son, but he was a part of their family the moment they found him. If Superman cannot replicate analogous bonds with humans as an adult, then he falls short of achieving the sort of identity development and integration one would expect and want from a strong, whole, and healthy individual.

Superman DOES NOT IDENTIFY HIMSELF AS A HUMAN IN ANYWAY.

You don't have to identify as a member of a specialized group in order to find a genuine place in that group. Acceptance and integration does not necessitate conformity.

This doesn't mean that he doesn't have a lot in of similarities with us, more so than he may even have with a kryptonian, but he know that he's just not one of us and he can't be no matter who he dates. He can only protect and help us but never truly assimilate with us.

The idea that Superman cannot assimilate into human society is absurd. He can acknowledge there's nothing he can do to make himself human or to turn off his alien nature without absolutely foreclosing on the possibility of finding a place within humanity where he can be loved, understood, and accepted by humans.

The validation that some people think Superman needs to function in his life is just disturbing to me.

This really hasn't been suggested. Superman integrating his alien nature with his human acculturation by establishing significant connections with humans isn't about providing him with personal validation. It's about Superman being able to get what he wants: he wants to be closer to humans he cares about.

Wonder Woman just makes him feel comfortable she doesn't validate his Superman ID as you seem to suggest that Lois and a human romantic relationship does for his Clark side. Like if he's not dating a human then Clark stops being a part of his life.....that's wrong by definition.

The romantic journey Lois and Superman/Clark take is ultimately to validate both the Superman and Clark side of Kal-El. She loves one side more at first, but grows to love the other. She knits together both Superman and Clark Kent. Wonder Woman cannot do that. She never had to fall in love with just Clark Kent.

Superman has maintained his Clark side just fine for 20 plus years in the new 52 without being with a human girl.

If all Clark Kent is to Superman is a mask, then he's not doing just fine.

I can't even fathom the level of nitpicking it takes for one to come up with this amount of verbiage about so trivial a detail. Not only that, you immediately had to post a montage of jpegs and gifs of Superman having had sex with Lois Lane in previous continuities or other media adaptations of the character, just because someone hypothesized in jest that the current Superman is "desperate for some sex". Your actions belie your words and you're doing exactly what you claim not to be doing, which is obsessing over minutiae that don't even concern the titular character of these very boards, and reacting to perceived slights to the Clark/Lois relationship in almost entrenching fashion.

What? My analysis of the verbiage wasn't nitpicking. It is an odd choice to use the word "current" to refer to Superman's relationship with Wonder Woman. I didn't use that complaint to rip apart the entire relationship. It's not even a criticism of the relationship. It's just some commentary about diction. I posted the love scenes because it was erroneously implied that Superman cannot have sex with humans. Pointing that out does not undermine Superman/Wonder Woman nor is it an attack on that relationship. It seems you are the one blowing things way out of proportion.

You're well within your rights to believe the Superman/Wonder Woman relationship is being handled poorly.

Thanks.

I disagree, partly because I don't really expect Pride and Prejudice in a Superman book, partly because it's not an aspect that concerns me greatly in a Superman book

I guess it's easy to please an indifferent reader who has low expectations. My bar is higher. Sorry.

, and mostly because I think it's being handled just fine for what it is: A super-powered romance in a Superman book (and Justice League too). It is perfectly consistent with what we've seen from the characters so far in this continuity (your mileage may and probably does vary), it makes sense to all but the most diehard Team Lois members, and has barely taken off yet, what with H'El and Atlantis thrown into the mix.

It is being handled poorly because the Diana we see dating Superman is not the same Diana who appears in her own title. It is being handled poorly because the continuity clowns don't seem to realize how awful it is to write Diana wanting to call Superman her beloved a day after Clark was still making jealous and petty remarks about Lois Lane's boyfriend. It's being poorly handled because Superman seems to be placed in the damsel-in-distress position half the time he's with Wonder Woman while Wonder Woman is insecure, confused, and vulnerable when she's with Superman. It's being handled poorly because this relationship has just started and already their dates are becoming cliche: share a meal, chat about identity, and finally hero duty interrupts.

Tell you what, why don't you give it more than two violently cut short dates and two kisses to see where it goes? It has been no more cliché than Superman and Lois' first meetings in any previous continuity, and it's certainly different, if nothing else.

I am giving it a chance, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to speak up when the writing is bad. Fans of Superman/Wonder Woman didn't seem to have a problem taking pot shots at Superman/Lois while the relationship was in continuity or even now in completely unrelated threads. Your attempt at policing me seems oddly one-sided. Perhaps before you start pointing your judgmental finger at me, you might consider observing the behavior of others.

[thepenguin]

The romantic journey Lois and Superman/Clark take is ultimately to validate both the Superman and Clark side of Kal-El. She loves one side more at first, but grows to love the other. She knits together both Superman and Clark Kent. Wonder Woman cannot do that. She never had to fall in love with just Clark Kent.



.

It's not Clark who has to learn lessons here. It was Lois to learn not to judge a man by appearances. Clark as she knew him was inauthentic ie not real...put on for her to not connect to his true self. She validates nothing and knits nothing for HIM. For herself is how I see it. Diana does not have that dysfunctional dynamic to deal with. Never had to even when she was his best friend last canon. It's all or nothing with Diana from the start in that...and she does not have to learn to fall in love with Clark like Lois because she sees the man from the outset. He also cannot bullshit her. So to assume WW is undermined is nonsensical.

It's an angle for some fans...they like...honesty in a relationship from the outset...which many couples...meta and non meta have and they are doing quite well.

You might like that which I see as soap opera nonsense and cliched superhero stuff that is typical of many heroes. Nothing unique of special about that in fact the troupe is so common. I don't enjoy that and you cannot invalidate what I like because you might like something else.

[misslane38]

It's not Clark who has to learn lessons here. It was Lois to learn not to judge a man by appearances. Clark as she knew him was inauthentic ie not real...put on for her to not connect to his true self. She validates nothing and knits nothing for HIM. For herself is how I see it. Diana does not have that dysfunctional dynamic to deal with. Never had to even when she was his best friend last canon. It's all or nothing with Diana from the start in that...and she does not have to learn to fall in love with Clark like Lois because she sees the man from the outset. He also cannot bullshit her. So to assume WW is undermined is nonsensical.

It is validating for Clark to know that his human side alone can be loved. It is validating for Clark to be able to risk everything to connect with the people with whom he wants a connection. I'm not undermining Wonder Woman by pointing out the obvious: she cannot ever say that she fell in love with a powerless, nerdy, loner. As a special person who feels alienated, Diana's love can never make Clark feel like he's accepted and connected to humanity.

It's an angle for some fans...they like...honesty in a relationship from the outset...which many couples...meta and non meta have and they are doing quite well.

The dishonesty in the Superman/Lois relationship is the key ingredient in the indispensable triangle dynamic all esteemed writers of Superman cite as critical to Superman mythology. Stories, especially love stories, need conflict and a journey. The barriers to truly connecting in the Superman/Lois relationship represent one of Superman's core mythological conflicts.

You might like that which I see as soap opera nonsense and cliched superhero stuff that is typical of many heroes. Nothing unique of special about that in fact the troupe is so common. I don't enjoy that and you cannot invalidate what I like because you might like something else.

What you call "soap opera nonsense" is what Mark Waid and Grant Morrison believe is crucial to any Superman story. But they're idiots, right?

[thepenguin]

I am giving it a chance, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to speak up when the writing is bad. Fans of Superman/Wonder Woman didn't seem to have a problem taking pot shots at Superman/Lois while the relationship was in continuity or even now in completely unrelated threads. Your attempt at policing me seems oddly one-sided. Perhaps before you start pointing your judgmental finger at me, you might consider observing the behavior of others.

Are you telling me you are buying this Valentine Special? I find this very hard to believe. Can you show me on any new 52 lois/superman centric thread where many sm/ww fans are wasting their time on that pairing here? Seriously. I don't think they give a crap if you all rave over Lois...in fact there are several clois threads here that clois fans are the ones responsible for keeping it alive. The sm/ww want to talk sm/ww, not clois. It's you guys who come to try to make it about Lois here. And you don't come and make a comment or two you argue and rehash and the gifs of the love making. wth is that about? seriously. Are you that threatened?

[thepenguin]

It is validating for Clark to know that his human side alone can be loved. It is validating for Clark to be able to risk everything to connect with the people with whom he wants a connection. I'm not undermining Wonder Woman by pointing out the obvious: she cannot ever say that she fell in love with a powerless, nerdy, loner. As a special person who feels alienated, Diana's love can never make Clark feel like he's accepted and connected to humanity.



The dishonesty in the Superman/Lois relationship is the key ingredient in the indispensable triangle dynamic all esteemed writers of Superman cite as critical to Superman mythology. Stories, especially love stories, need conflict and a journey. The barriers to truly connecting in the Superman/Lois relationship represent one of Superman's core mythological conflicts.



What you call "soap opera nonsense" is what Mark Waid and Grant Morrison believe is crucial to any Superman story. But they're idiots, right?

There comes a time stories need to evolve and comics cannot treat readers to cliches. Maybe that is why Superman is where he is in the grand scheme of things. Cliches. Nothing is indispensible. You'll see. Lois also is a fraction of the myth. No way the whole.

[Sacred Knight]

Well at least we had a couple weeks of sanity here at the Superman forums. Now its time for Superman Madhouse II: The Redeadening.

[thepenguin]

Well at least we had a couple weeks of sanity here at the Superman forums. Now its time for Superman Madhouse II: The Redeadening.

Wait until Clark and Diana like adults decide to do some adult stuff. It will be the Apocalypse. The good thing is...ranting on MB is just that. I suspect this Valentine Special will sell fine.

[kylesgirl]

Wait until Clark and Diana like adults decide to do some adult stuff. It will be the Apocalypse. The good thing is...ranting on MB is just that. I suspect this Valentine Special will sell fine.

Um, no. We'd be bombarded with gif of clois love making and Clark from Smallville saying dear old dad taught me exercizes to have sex with a human and that in one fell swoop invalidates decades of Supes needing to depower himself to be with a human (ironic the putting up the Chris Reeve and Kidder one) lol. But if Clark in a new continuity says I can be myself when I am around you (Diana)...that is wrong. There is no proof. Never mind Clark is saying the words on the panel and being Clark, who happens to be Superman too.

BTW How does those exercizes to control one self go, I wonder? WT frack would even Jor El do that? I'm not sure of my destiny really and have all these doubts etc...it's alright son, let me teach you how to bang humans. Wow. And we have people here talking about bad writing?