Joker and the busload of children...

[Mr. Holmes]

That's what happens in Kingdom Come. The people cheer on the guy who kills Joker, and Superman whines his way into retirement. It's a praised story, but one that never sat well with me.

Golden Age Superman would personally toss Joker to the moon.

[vivvav]

That went out the window when he blew up an entire orphanage in Cacophony.

Yeah, but Cacophony sucked. Is that even considered canon?

[BraveSirRobin]

The problem with the Joker by now is that no matter how monstrous he gets, it's just passe. He kills a whole load of people? Done that before, what makes this any more horrific? He kills a Batclan member? Killed Jason, crippled Barbara, seen it all before. It's just ludicrously overdone, he is a one-note murderous bore. Escape Arkham, kill people, go back to Arkham, rinse and repeat ad nauseam. That's why Nolan Joker was interesting for me. He wasn't just killing people because he found it amusing, he had a plan, or at least an agenda, there was a purpose to what he was doing. Comics Joker has no point. (For me anyway.)

[RubberLotus]

It's absurd how far they're allowing this kind of hack writing to go. It just completely takes me out of the story that he's killed so many people with no repercussions whatsoever. It's just back and forth from Arkham.

What's worse is when you have inane stories about how Batman needs to save Joker from the death penalty, because of the thousands of people he killed, he was conveniently convicted for one murder he didn't apparently do. Actually I'm surprised no one brought that up in the Dixon thread.

Or how Batman will become no better than this genocidal terrorist if he kills him.

I believe the reason that Dixon doesn't get even more heat for Devil's Advocate (and he gets plenty) is because the Joker, as presented in that story, had actual charisma and wit. And Dixon, wisely enough, edged off on showing him doing anything TOO horrible during the comic.

IIRC, Joker's rap sheet from that particular comic is as follows:

1.) Attacks a post office. Shoots off a tommy gun in said post office, but no casualties shown or mentioned.

2.) Starts attacking the bailiffs, bare-handed, during his trial. Got quickly restrained.

3.) Shoves a harmonica down a Blackgate inmate's throat.

4.) Beats up Tommy Mangles, in a pretty good case of self-defense.

5.) Starts freaking out when the warden tells him that his execution won't be televised. Again, he's quickly restrained.

Again, this isn't meant to excuse his previous crimes, or Batman's actions during the comic. Just a stab at why people might give Dixon (and his Joker) a pass.

On a mildly related note, I think that the best explanation for why Bruce won't kill the Joker is to stop himself from sliding down the path of Light Yagami. The man's already a quasi-god where Gotham (maybe even the DCU) is concerned. He has to have some kind of absolute, objective restraining bolt in place to keep his ego in check, no matter how nonsensical it is.

(And hell, Bruce's crusade is already pretty nonsensical in the first place. We're talking about a guy who thinks that crime can be punched away, fercryingoutloud.)

[Vil_Dee]

My thoughts on this: if Batman won't even kill Ra's al-Ghul, then people have no business expecting him to kill Joker.

Bruce has seen first-hand, and remembers, what Ra's can do on a good day. When you factor in the guy's past, you've got a pretty good case of Ra's being even worse than Joker.

It's just hating haters hating. They're mad all the writers drool at the thought of writing the Joker and no one gives a crap about their favs. Sorry, it's not the Joker's fault no one has written about your precious Killer Moth in years.

Yeah, you'll never see one thread about "Why doesn't Batman kill Ras" or "Should Ras die" even though every Ras outing has him trying to kill over 95% of the population. He unleashed a freakin plague in Gotham, how many people died in that? No one asks why Batman, or the CIA, or Nato, or the UN, or the JLA, or the JLI, or the GLC, or anyone doesn't actively hunt Ras down (or his now crazy a$$ daughter Talia) Zero Dark Thirty style. Nope, grasshoppers and tumbleweeds. Evidently, the only character in comics that is subject to real-world standards is the Joker.

I wish one writer would just put in as canon, "Gotham doesn't have the flippin death penalty, m'kay!!!!"

And wouldn't Batman look like a massive hypocrite if he was all high and mighty with his code of not killing when it was someone else's family that was torn apart, but when it's his own, now he's going to kill?

Jason Todd, a grade C character, is not worthy to kill the Joker, so you can just sit down about that.

[Cypher-Z]

-Joker kills men, women, and children on a daily basis
"Thats not so bad"
- Joker kills a busload of children
"Batman should kill him!!!"

[Vil_Dee]

I believe the reason that Dixon doesn't get even more heat for Devil's Advocate (and he gets plenty) is because the Joker, as presented in that story, had actual charisma and wit. And Dixon, wisely enough, edged off on showing him doing anything TOO horrible during the comic.


On a mildly related note, I think that the best explanation for why Bruce won't kill the Joker is to stop himself from sliding down the path of Light Yagami. The man's already a quasi-god where Gotham (maybe even the DCU) is concerned. He has to have some kind of absolute, objective restraining bolt in place to keep his ego in check, no matter how nonsensical it is.

(And hell, Bruce's crusade is already pretty nonsensical in the first place. We're talking about a guy who thinks that crime can be punched away, fercryingoutloud.)

People need to stop applying their own moral compass on to Batman. Batman is not an average person with typical average person thoughts. Batman is an extreme idealist. He probably naively thinks he can "save" everyone, and that you never have to kill, all evil can be contained. Obviously if he could save the Joker then he would be proven right, because Joker's the most hopeless person in the world. And with all the death and sacrifice, if Joker died before he saved him, he would feel like it was all for nothing. So basically Batman has put all his hope eggs in Joker's basket.

[Hypestyle]

so, short of outright "killing", has the joker ever really received a brutal beatdown? I'm not talking one-two punches and then bat-cuffs..

[jgiannantoni05]

I think that the best explanation for why Bruce won't kill the Joker is to stop himself from sliding down the path of Light Yagami.

No, IMHO the best explanation is that Batman is a Kantian/deontological moralist (which says: We have moral duties to do right actions and moral duties not to do wrong actions. Whether something is right or wrong doesn’t depend on its consequences. Rather, some actions are inherently right or wrong). Batman's not a utilitarian on at least the specific issue of murder. See philosophy. See the book Batman on Philosophy.

Dixon is/was a Catholic. Catholic morality is Kantian/deontological.


There are two presumptions that many fans seem to make regarding Batman killing Joker:
a) that Batman is morally responsible for any/all/most of the lives Joker has taken
b) that there is not any substantial longstanding philosophical view that supports Batman's firm no-killing position

In short, to those who feel Batman should kill...Bruce doesn't agree with you on a fundamental philosophical level, he ain't even seeing what you are. In other words, Bruce doesn't even agree with you that there is a problem, let alone whether he should fix it or not (and he'd say not, because murder is inherently wrong in deontological morality).

[Outside_85]

so, short of outright "killing", has the joker ever really received a brutal beatdown? I'm not talking one-two punches and then bat-cuffs..

Bruce was pretty brutal with him during Vengeance of Bane/Knightfall where he was repeatedly punching him while screaming "JASON TODD!" (I assume this was possibly the first Joker/Batman meeting after Todd's murder).
Barbara got some measure of revenge over him when she smashed his teeth in Birds of Prey, but I am not sure that really counts.

Other than that, he's been shot twice where it could have been fatal (if I am not mistaken), once by Hush and later by that 'cape hunter' who took the masks from the people he killed, completely unknown to his family.

[Scud]

so, short of outright "killing", has the joker ever really received a brutal beatdown? I'm not talking one-two punches and then bat-cuffs..

Batman #614

[Billy Batson]

Bruce was pretty brutal with him during Vengeance of Bane/Knightfall where he was repeatedly punching him while screaming "JASON TODD!" (I assume this was possibly the first Joker/Batman meeting after Todd's murder).
Barbara got some measure of revenge over him when she smashed his teeth in Birds of Prey, but I am not sure that really counts.

Other than that, he's been shot twice where it could have been fatal (if I am not mistaken), once by Hush and later by that 'cape hunter' who took the masks from the people he killed, completely unknown to his family.

Well he's been shot and beaten in Gotham Central too:

[Outside_85]

Well he's been shot and beaten in Gotham Central too:

Hmm, I did not know that :)

[Megadoomer]

I'm convinced anyone who kills the Joker will have a parade in their honor and landmarks in their named; Batman can be written to wag his moral finger all he wants... or maybe not, and he secretly rejoices. Even if one were to go to jail, they would be the biggest BAMF on the block.

I sincerely doubt that. Aside from the people who survive working for the Joker (there's bound to be a few that stick around - given that he generally doesn't care about money beyond advancing his schemes, he probably pays well), there's also Harley Quinn to consider. Sure, in the current comics, she's broken up with the Joker, but if anyone actually killed him, she'd probably still hunt that person down and end them violently for doing so. Plus, if someone makes an attempt to kill the Joker and fails, they're going to get the Joker's full attention, along with their loved ones.

As for Batman in particular killing the Joker, aside from the slippery slope argument, there's also the fact that Batman is a vigilante taking the law into his own hands, and he's the only one in Gotham who's intelligent enough to keep up with the Joker's brand of insanity. If he actually killed the Joker, it would probably be more difficult for people like Gordon to justify working with a known murderer, and the GCPD would have to do something about Bruce.

[Mistah K88]

When it comes to R'as I must ask this... does Ra's ever get sent to a prison or something after his scheme of the day fails? I always remember him having an implied death (or escaping period).