Joker and the busload of children...

[RubberLotus]

So... I've noticed lately that whenever people bandy about the whole "someone (preferably Batman) should totally kill the Joker!" thing, they always mention something along the lines of "he once killed a busload of children!" or "he once gassed an entire kindergarten class!" as justification.

The thing is... has canon actually confirmed any of this? In anything other than a throwaway line from Joker (who would say ANYTHING to get under someone's skin, whether it was true or not) to verify it? The closest I can think of was in The Dark Knight Returns, where he killed (dozens of?) boy scouts with poisoned cotton candy. But that 1.) was an Elseworlds, and 2.) featured him dying painfully shortly thereafter.

[Mistah K88]

There was the time that he told Lex Luthor that he boiled a baby alive and forced the father to eat the soup. As for the murder of children, I wouldn't be surprised with his resume.

[Vidocq]

This things are said but never showned because even for DC and it's Shock instead of story style, showing the Joker killing a bunch of kids would be in bad taste, not to mention it would finally cross the line (that should've been crossed long ago) for the Fans who worship the Joker as some kind of ''High Class'' Psycho or with some kinds of standards if they actually got to see what an actual bastard he is.

The closest he actually got was in NML where he was SPOILERS about to kill all the babies born in the year Gotham was NML. SPOILERS

[jgiannantoni05]

I don't know if he's actually done those things (confirmedly so). But Joker has definitely done the worst of the worst (killed children, women, families, etc, etc), with a huge body count (so whether he's done those precise things doesn't matter much). AND yet I completely understand Batman not killing him (Bruce is Kantian in morality on the issue of murder, which is his perogative).

fun fact: Sinestro's body count is the trillions (see when Sinestro and MadGod Sector 3600 tore thru the universe in late 80s comics), so feel free to throw that in fan's faces

[RubberLotus]

I don't know if he's actually done those things (confirmedly so). But Joker has definitely done the worst of the worst, with a huge body count (so whether he's done those precise things doesn't matter much). AND yet I completely understand Batman not killing him (Bruce is Kantian in morality on the issue of murder, which is his perogative).

My thoughts on this: if Batman won't even kill Ra's al-Ghul, then people have no business expecting him to kill Joker.

Bruce has seen first-hand, and remembers, what Ra's can do on a good day. When you factor in the guy's past, you've got a pretty good case of Ra's being even worse than Joker.

[jgiannantoni05]

My thoughts on this: if Batman won't even kill Ra's al-Ghul, then people have no business expecting him to kill Joker.

Bruce has seen first-hand, and remembers, what Ra's can do on a good day. When you factor in the guy's past, you've got a pretty good case of Ra's being even worse than Joker.

Sure. Yea, I wonder why Joker is always the focus of such discussions. And with Sinestro (see my edited post above), fans should get on Hal's case with him, etc.

[Mr. Holmes]

My thoughts on this: if Batman won't even kill Ra's al-Ghul, then people have no business expecting him to kill Joker.

Bruce has seen first-hand, and remembers, what Ra's can do on a good day. When you factor in the guy's past, you've got a pretty good case of Ra's being even worse than Joker.

I cheered on Bruce when he "killed" Ra's in Batman Begins.

You're calling a double standard where it doesn't exist.

[tylenoljones]

Despite claims to the contrary, I really don't think it's Joker's massive body count that makes it hard for people to believe Batman wouldn't have killed him by now. I feel that what really doesn't sit well with fans is the fact that Joker has gotten away with some very personal attacks on Bruce's family.

People might say that it's a bit ridiculous Joker hasn't been sentenced to the electric chair yet; but the root of the problem is that because of what Joker has done to Jason, Barbara, (and by extension what he's done to Bruce and Jim Gordon), it's hard to believe either of those two men would let the Joker just go on killing. Most people (not all) who've had a maniac kill their son, daughter, wife, etc. might not murder the killer personally, but I can't see them opposing the death penalty if this hypothetical killer ever went to trial.

It's impossible for me to believe that Jason Todd wouldn't have killed Joker by now. It helps that I haven't been reading as many Bat-Books (Morrison's run aside) since Jason came back.

[tylenoljones]

I cheered on Bruce when he "killed" Ra's in Batman Begins.

I had a similar moment in a Dini issue of Tec that immediately followed "The Resurrection of Ras Al Ghul", when Bruce kicked Ras out of the window of a skyscraper. Good times.

[ngroove]

My thoughts on this: if Batman won't even kill Ra's al-Ghul, then people have no business expecting him to kill Joker.

Batman's "killed" Ra's at least twice: Batman Annual #8 (1982) and Batman #400.

[jgiannantoni05]

Batman's "killed" Ra's at least twice: Batman Annual #8 (1982) and Batman #400.

Yea...BUT it seems Batman knew he wasn't permanently ending him. (Ra's has arguably demonstrated unkillability if you think about these scenes and like with Son of the Demon's post-400 opening with Ra's returning from the earth inexplicably)

[Guy1]

This things are said but never showned because even for DC and it's Shock instead of story style, showing the Joker killing a bunch of kids would be in bad taste, not to mention it would finally cross the line (that should've been crossed long ago) for the Fans who worship the Joker as some kind of ''High Class'' Psycho or with some kinds of standards if they actually got to see what an actual bastard he is.

That went out the window when he blew up an entire orphanage in Cacophony.

[sidekick77]

Despite claims to the contrary, I really don't think it's Joker's massive body count that makes it hard for people to believe Batman wouldn't have killed him by now. I feel that what really doesn't sit well with fans is the fact that Joker has gotten away with some very personal attacks on Bruce's family.

No, I believe its definitely the massive body count in addition to the personal attacks that make it hard to believe the Joker's still around. He's got a body count close to genocidal levels.

Joker killed a significant portion of Gotham citizens in Batman Confidential by exploding a blimp with poisonous glass to rain down on the city. The 'bus load of infants' the OP is asking about, may actually be the events during No Man's Land when the Joker took babies as hostages and held them in the Commissioners office. Sarah Essen tried to save them and was killed. Prior to the reboot, Gotham Sirens had the Joker rounding up all the staff and security guards at Arkham and lining them up be butchered like an assembly line. And in the Joker: Devil's Advocatet, he is reported to have at least killed 2,000 people at the time of this particular trial.

I'm not even scratching the surface on this clown's ridiculous rap sheet, but never underestimate a writer's willingness to slaughter hundreds of people to launch a Joker event. Sad, but true, just look at DotF: murdered the entire GCPD, killed an apartment complex full of residents, poisoned a roller rink filled with hostages, and possibly the occupants of Amusement Mile.

[Mr. Holmes]

No, I believe its definitely the massive body count in addition to the personal attacks that make it hard to believe the Joker's still around. He's got a body count close to genocidal levels.

Joker killed a significant portion of Gotham citizens in Batman Confidential by exploding a blimp with poisonous glass to rain down on the city. The 'bus load of infants' the OP is asking about, may actually be the events during No Man's Land when the Joker took babies as hostages and held them in the Commissioners office. Sarah Essen tried to save them and was killed. Prior to the reboot, Gotham Sirens had the Joker rounding up all the staff and security guards at Arkham and lining them up be butchered like an assembly line. And in the Joker: Devil's Advocatet, he is reported to have at least killed 2,000 people at the time of this particular trial.

I'm not even scratching the surface on this clown's ridiculous rap sheet, but never underestimate a writer's willingness to slaughter hundreds of people to launch a Joker event. Sad, but true, just look at DotF: murdered the entire GCPD, killed an apartment complex full of residents, poisoned a roller rink filled with hostages, and possibly the occupants of Amusement Mile.

It's absurd how far they're allowing this kind of hack writing to go. It just completely takes me out of the story that he's killed so many people with no repercussions whatsoever. It's just back and forth from Arkham.

What's worse is when you have inane stories about how Batman needs to save Joker from the death penalty, because of the thousands of people he killed, he was conveniently convicted for one murder he didn't apparently do. Actually I'm surprised no one brought that up in the Dixon thread.

Or how Batman will become no better than this genocidal terrorist if he kills him.

[sidekick77]

It's absurd how far they're allowing this kind of hack writing to go. It just completely takes me out of the story that he's killed so many people with no repercussions whatsoever. It's just back and forth from Arkham.

What's worse is when you have inane stories about how Batman needs to save Joker from the death penalty, because of the thousands of people he killed, he was conveniently convicted for one murder he didn't apparently do. Actually I'm surprised no one brought that up in the Dixon thread.

Or how Batman will become no better than this genocidal terrorist if he kills him.

I'm convinced anyone who kills the Joker will have a parade in their honor and landmarks in their named; Batman can be written to wag his moral finger all he wants... or maybe not, and he secretly rejoices. Even if one were to go to jail, they would be the biggest BAMF on the block.