io9's 12 Things that "Ruined" Superman*

[Kurosawa]

By the way, Kurosawa? This here is an example of rational discourse. I didn't appreciate you targeting me like that.

I'm sorry but you implied that I am a rape victim, and first of all, it would be no one's business if that was the case, and secondly, there is such a thing as going to far even if someone tears your opinions apart or is disrespectful. Call me an asshole or whatever, but that was over-the-top.

We need to not communicate because you seem to respond to things in a very overboard manner. My post wasn't the most kind thing, but it was the equivalent of throwing a spitball...to which you responded by breaking out a machine gun.

I'm still taken aback by the shock, and I've been dumb enough to get rooked into or start a lot of stupid internet arguments.

[Kurosawa]

Kurosawa is a great poster. He has passion for the character like few I have seen before. He loves when comics were what they should always be meant for The Kids. It was the arrogance of us the adult comic book reader that pretty much ripped these characters from the kids and proclaimed them as ours because we could never let go of our childhood.

This has been coming since the mid 80's to the point I don't think comics will ever be able to be just for kids again and that above all else is what has destroyed the comic book business and will continue to do so until there will be nothing left. I look at today's comic book readers and I am sad beyond words. Not because of the content but because I that very content has prohibited children to be able to pick up the books that the adults are reading. I remember what joy I had to be reading Superman when I was 5 back in 1978 and it made it even better that it was the same comic my father was reading because it reached every level. We unfortunately don't have that anymore because a 5 to 10 year old most likely are not allowed to read what their parents are reading because the parent is being responsible and seeing this is not gear for kids anymore.

Comics being the way they are in both sales and content is OUR fault. I hope we enjoy what we as responsible adults have sown.

Thanks so much, Lex.

[Ntikrst]

You should never be afraid of what you are and what you like.

How utterly sanctimonious of you to preach to a 12 year old boy who has just moved to another new town and another new school for the third year in a row and wants to keep below the radar until he can make some friends.

You were bullied because you allowed it.

I said I gave and received bloody noses because I always fought back but the antagonism was so prevalent across different schools in different cities that eventually I became more guarded about sharing my tastes. Discretion is the better part of valor and all that jazz. The point I was trying to make that eludes you Silver Age Fox, is that Superman was indeed widely unpopular for most of the reasons stated in the article.

I read Superman comics and did what ever the hell I wanted and if anyone didn't like it then that was to bad. I was a short fat kid who was king of the nerds and never got picked on because people knew I was my own person and not afraid to show it and they respected that. I wound up being friends with everyone because of it.

How many times did you move growing up, I mean were you ever the new kid in school? It's a lot like being in prison because if you take any shit it's like blood in the water. I learned that right away the hard way. Thanks to super hero role models, I got into the gym and the dojo as soon as I could and the rest of high school was easy peasy rice n cheesy. No more bloody noses for me.

I'm sorry you felt you needed to do that to fit in instead of just saying this is what I am and what I enjoy and if you don't like it then go scratch.

I'm sorry that you were too ignorant to blend in. I had the best of both worlds, comics at home and friends at school. You had your principles and I had girlfriends.

[thetrellan]

That doesn't make sense. Even at his peak power levels, Clark relied more on his brains to defeat his enemies than raw muscle.

The level of power required to move an entire galaxy is more than enough to destroy the entire solar system. Even setting aside the question of how much self-control would be required for such a being to function among lesser creatures, some of these villains are at least as powerful as Kal. A fistfight between such beings would quickly render the world lifeless, as if the Moon had collided with the Earth.

Regardless, if you remove this awesome power level from the equation and consider his powers at a post- Crisis level, the very idea that even an enemy armed with Kryptonite would pose a significant threat still seems a huge stretch. One would think that super speed alone would be enough to negate such a threat. Add flight, super strength and super senses into the mix.

That's why magic was also turned into a weakness. Which is another stretch. A vague, ill-defined one at that. Even the existence of other Kryptonians is a stretch if you think about it.

Of course all this somehow just makes it more entertaining.

[thetrellan]

I'm sorry but you implied that I am a rape victim, and first of all, it would be no one's business if that was the case, and secondly, there is such a thing as going to far even if someone tears your opinions apart or is disrespectful. Call me an asshole or whatever, but that was over-the-top.

We need to not communicate because you seem to respond to things in a very overboard manner. My post wasn't the most kind thing, but it was the equivalent of throwing a spitball...to which you responded by breaking out a machine gun.

I'm still taken aback by the shock, and I've been dumb enough to get rooked into or start a lot of stupid internet arguments.

Imagine my own shock at being accused- repeatedly- of being the type of person who enjoyed reading rape scenes. To my mind, that's worse than being called a rape victim, because there is no fault in being a victim.

Don't deceive yourself. All I did was throw your own accusations back at you. I would not even have done that much had you not kept repeating the offending statements. If you found that shocking, that's just tit for tat.

[Kurosawa]

Imagine my own shock at being accused- repeatedly- of being the type of person who enjoyed reading rape scenes. To my mind, that's worse than being called a rape victim, because there is no fault in being a victim.

Don't deceive yourself. All I did was throw your own accusations back at you. I would not even have done that much had you not kept repeating the offending statements. If you found that shocking, that's just tit for tat.

Main thing is we need to never communicate again because you are way too personal and aggressive for me.

[thetrellan]

Main thing is we need to never communicate again because you are way too personal and aggressive for me.

There you go again, trying to paint me as the villain in this tableau. I find it enormously convenient how you manage to ignore the fact that I tried, over and over, to defuse the argument. You are the one who set fuel to the fire, not me. You are the one who took things too personally, and when I reflected all that back at you in a single moment- as opposed to your repeated, unfounded attacks on my character- you ignore the truth and blame me.

How can you not see that? What hubris must be yours!

And now that I call you on your own words, which you admit are offensive and shocking, still you remain too small to own up to it.

[thetrellan]

You know, I believe Lex when he says you're a passionate poster. Maybe that's all that happened here, just two passionate posters butting heads. So I apologize for what I said. Never mind the rest. If that's okay with you, we can let this be the last of it. What do you say?

[Kurosawa]

You know, I believe Lex when he says you're a passionate poster. Maybe that's all that happened here, just two passionate posters butting heads. So I apologize for what I said. Never mind the rest. If that's okay with you, we can let this be the last of it. What do you say?

Works for me, and I apologize for jumping on your case so hard in the first place.

[Self-DCeit]

Well, that's... actually kind of heartening. Not something you see very often, two posters mutually owning up on the Internet. Major kudos, you two. For my part, I apologize for butting in the discussion and setting more fire to the fuel.

Now can we get back to what matters, i.e., stop providing clicks and traffic to that inane article? I'll even propose a new title for the thread: 2 Things that "Ruined" a Flamewar.

[thetrellan]

Works for me, and I apologize for jumping on your case so hard in the first place.

I appreciate that.

[Lexrules]

How utterly sanctimonious of you to preach to a 12 year old boy who has just moved to another new town and another new school for the third year in a row and wants to keep below the radar until he can make some friends.



I said I gave and received bloody noses because I always fought back but the antagonism was so prevalent across different schools in different cities that eventually I became more guarded about sharing my tastes. Discretion is the better part of valor and all that jazz. The point I was trying to make that eludes you Silver Age Fox, is that Superman was indeed widely unpopular for most of the reasons stated in the article.



How many times did you move growing up, I mean were you ever the new kid in school? It's a lot like being in prison because if you take any shit it's like blood in the water. I learned that right away the hard way. Thanks to super hero role models, I got into the gym and the dojo as soon as I could and the rest of high school was easy peasy rice n cheesy. No more bloody noses for me.



I'm sorry that you were too ignorant to blend in. I had the best of both worlds, comics at home and friends at school. You had your principles and I had girlfriends.

Well I also had girlfriends and comics and never hid one from anyone. No I never moved around like you but I still think you just be yourself no matter what circumstance. You are what you are if someone can't deal with that then there not worth it. You seem like you were faking others from what you real are and loved. That is no way to live. I hope now that you are a adult you come to realize that faking others to fit in is only hurting yourself.

Never be a fake person in life and be proud of who you are and what you love.

[Ntikrst]

Well I also had girlfriends and comics and never hid one from anyone. No I never moved around like you but I still think you just be yourself no matter what circumstance. You are what you are if someone can't deal with that then there not worth it. You seem like you were faking others from what you real are and loved. That is no way to live. I hope now that you are a adult you come to realize that faking others to fit in is only hurting yourself.

Never be a fake person in life and be proud of who you are and what you love.

Yeesh, I just threw up in my mouth.

Here’s where you are failing at comprehension, maybe I wasn’t clear enough so I’ll try and spell it out for you as simply as I can.

I never loved Silver Age Superman. I loved the first two movies, the Fleischer cartoons and the reprints from the Golden Age I found in a book called Superman from the 30’s to the 70’s. I didn’t start his collecting monthlies until the 45th anniversary when Luthor and Brainiac got upgraded to be on par with Superman. Growing up, I was into Marvel comics like Hulk, FF and Spider-man mostly. I collected those monthlies long before Superman.

I didn’t conceal my appreciation of Superman because of peer pressure, I concealed it because, for the most part, I agreed with them. Silver Age Superman sucked ballz, I loved the Real Superman in spite of the Silver Age. The point that you want to obscure with all this "be less fake, be mor pur", rhetoric is that the FACT that Superman was so unpopular before COIE, being a fan of his was likely to incur derision from your peers. You even admit this is true because you earned accolades as King of the Nerds after enduring torment from your peers. So we are in agreement then, Silver Age Superman was not popular for most of the reasons outlined in that article. Good to know.

So why on Earth would I go out of my way to incur the abuse of tormenters in a brand new school over a character who I didn’t really care for? You’ve never been the new kid in school so you’re ignorant to that situation but let me assure you, kids have more tolerance from their home grown nerds than they do for fresh imports. It's a lot of grief to put up with over something that I didn't necessarily disagree with.

Besides, after COIE, DC comics and Superman stopped sucking so I could be honestly be proud of the character. I still encountered ridicule at times, but after COIE, they had a lot less ammunition to base their insults on. Within a couple years of DKR and Watchmen DC comics were cool even, all that time in the gym was almost for naught.

Silver Age Superman is a neutered eunuch who was castrated by the Comics Code of Authority because The Establishment decided the King of all Superheroes needs to be their whipping boy rather then the champion of the oppressed who are in fact, ultimately victimized by other versions of The Establishment.

I was never proud of this incarnation of the character, I don’t think I can adequately express how much I always hated Silver Age Superman and how much everyone else hated him too before COIE. I hate his fans too when they always assume the holier than thou attitude that anyone who wants some logic or reason in their storytelling is some kind of second class comic book fan.

The article is spot on, and well timed. Superman is becoming all powerful again and it’s starting to ruin the character’s potential appeal, again. His 5 day planetary bench press stunt is regarded by many as fanwankery and it leads to all kinds of continuity issues when Superman shows up in JL and all of a sudden needs WW’s help lifting air craft carriers. The lack of consistency isn’t good for Superman any more than it was 30 years ago.

If they keep it up, Superman will become an unpopular joke for a niche market again because he’s too big to fail. You’d have to be crazy to think that a different result will be achieved by repeating history.

[cgh]

Yeesh, I just threw up in my mouth.

Here’s where you are failing at comprehension, maybe I wasn’t clear enough so I’ll try and spell it out for you as simply as I can.

I never loved Silver Age Superman. I loved the first two movies, the Fleischer cartoons and the reprints from the Golden Age I found in a book called Superman from the 30’s to the 70’s. I didn’t start his collecting monthlies until the 45th anniversary when Luthor and Brainiac got upgraded to be on par with Superman. Growing up, I was into Marvel comics like Hulk, FF and Spider-man mostly. I collected those monthlies long before Superman.

I didn’t conceal my appreciation of Superman because of peer pressure, I concealed it because, for the most part, I agreed with them. Silver Age Superman sucked ballz, I loved the Real Superman in spite of the Silver Age. The point that you want to obscure with all this "be less fake, be mor pur", rhetoric is that the FACT that Superman was so unpopular before COIE, being a fan of his was likely to incur derision from your peers. You even admit this is true because you earned accolades as King of the Nerds after enduring torment from your peers. So we are in agreement then, Silver Age Superman was not popular for most of the reasons outlined in that article. Good to know.

So why on Earth would I go out of my way to incur the abuse of tormenters in a brand new school over a character who I didn’t really care for? You’ve never been the new kid in school so you’re ignorant to that situation but let me assure you, kids have more tolerance from their home grown nerds than they do for fresh imports. It's a lot of grief to put up with over something that I didn't necessarily disagree with.

Besides, after COIE, DC comics and Superman stopped sucking so I could be honestly be proud of the character. I still encountered ridicule at times, but after COIE, they had a lot less ammunition to base their insults on. Within a couple years of DKR and Watchmen DC comics were cool even, all that time in the gym was almost for naught.

Silver Age Superman is a neutered eunuch who was castrated by the Comics Code of Authority because The Establishment decided the King of all Superheroes needs to be their whipping boy rather then the champion of the oppressed who are in fact, ultimately victimized by other versions of The Establishment.

I was never proud of this incarnation of the character, I don’t think I can adequately express how much I always hated Silver Age Superman and how much everyone else hated him too before COIE. I hate his fans too when they always assume the holier than thou attitude that anyone who wants some logic or reason in their storytelling is some kind of second class comic book fan.

The article is spot on, and well timed. Superman is becoming all powerful again and it’s starting to ruin the character’s potential appeal, again. His 5 day planetary bench press stunt is regarded by many as fanwankery and it leads to all kinds of continuity issues when Superman shows up in JL and all of a sudden needs WW’s help lifting air craft carriers. The lack of consistency isn’t good for Superman any more than it was 30 years ago.

If they keep it up, Superman will become an unpopular joke for a niche market again because he’s too big to fail. You’d have to be crazy to think that a different result will be achieved by repeating history.

Bang on, in my opinion. Especially the parts about the CCA. I'd love it if that raw energy of the Golden Age Superman, where he knew his mission was to fight for the little guy, he tried hard and he wasn't plagued by angst or self-doubt, became the new normal. For an example of this, look at Daredevil, possibly the angstiest (assuming that's a word) guy ever. Now he headlines a fun and positive book that's selling well.

By the way, I'm not one of these "all comics should be bright and hopeful" people - it varies by character, obviously.

[Lexrules]

Yeesh, I just threw up in my mouth.

Here’s where you are failing at comprehension, maybe I wasn’t clear enough so I’ll try and spell it out for you as simply as I can.

I never loved Silver Age Superman. I loved the first two movies, the Fleischer cartoons and the reprints from the Golden Age I found in a book called Superman from the 30’s to the 70’s. I didn’t start his collecting monthlies until the 45th anniversary when Luthor and Brainiac got upgraded to be on par with Superman. Growing up, I was into Marvel comics like Hulk, FF and Spider-man mostly. I collected those monthlies long before Superman.

I didn’t conceal my appreciation of Superman because of peer pressure, I concealed it because, for the most part, I agreed with them. Silver Age Superman sucked ballz, I loved the Real Superman in spite of the Silver Age. The point that you want to obscure with all this "be less fake, be mor pur", rhetoric is that the FACT that Superman was so unpopular before COIE, being a fan of his was likely to incur derision from your peers. You even admit this is true because you earned accolades as King of the Nerds after enduring torment from your peers. So we are in agreement then, Silver Age Superman was not popular for most of the reasons outlined in that article. Good to know.

So why on Earth would I go out of my way to incur the abuse of tormenters in a brand new school over a character who I didn’t really care for? You’ve never been the new kid in school so you’re ignorant to that situation but let me assure you, kids have more tolerance from their home grown nerds than they do for fresh imports. It's a lot of grief to put up with over something that I didn't necessarily disagree with.

Besides, after COIE, DC comics and Superman stopped sucking so I could be honestly be proud of the character. I still encountered ridicule at times, but after COIE, they had a lot less ammunition to base their insults on. Within a couple years of DKR and Watchmen DC comics were cool even, all that time in the gym was almost for naught.

Silver Age Superman is a neutered eunuch who was castrated by the Comics Code of Authority because The Establishment decided the King of all Superheroes needs to be their whipping boy rather then the champion of the oppressed who are in fact, ultimately victimized by other versions of The Establishment.

I was never proud of this incarnation of the character, I don’t think I can adequately express how much I always hated Silver Age Superman and how much everyone else hated him too before COIE. I hate his fans too when they always assume the holier than thou attitude that anyone who wants some logic or reason in their storytelling is some kind of second class comic book fan.

The article is spot on, and well timed. Superman is becoming all powerful again and it’s starting to ruin the character’s potential appeal, again. His 5 day planetary bench press stunt is regarded by many as fanwankery and it leads to all kinds of continuity issues when Superman shows up in JL and all of a sudden needs WW’s help lifting air craft carriers. The lack of consistency isn’t good for Superman any more than it was 30 years ago.

If they keep it up, Superman will become an unpopular joke for a niche market again because he’s too big to fail. You’d have to be crazy to think that a different result will be achieved by repeating history.

I think there are plenty who would disagree with you on the Silver/ Bronze Age Superman and why DC has returned to that formula for the most part. That version lasted longer then any other version for a reason. You say you liked Superman the movies, well they were taken from the Silver and Bronze age versions of the character so your argument is as flawed as could be.

I think you just like coming on here and arguing with people but if that is your thing then so be it. I'll be here to rebuttal you when need be.

After all I'm Lexrules and you're not.