The Batman in JL/JLU Thread

[DochaDocha]

Bruce's relationships with Lane and Gordon were about creating story tension, not about giving Bruce a chick.

I agree it wasn't giving him a chick for the sake of giving him a chick. Actually, I half-liked Batman/Lois. Problem is, though, that when you continually writer female characters with no real history of liking Bruce actually into him, it builds that "Mary Sue" effect where all these women are attracted to the character. Plus, letting Lois (of all characters) be that close to Bruce (she said their relationship was serious, he wanted her to move to Gotham) YEARS before she got close to Superman kind of created unintended perceptions of the character.

And Timm didn't intend to have a Batman/Wonder Woman relationship. That happened because of the fan response to the "Brave and Bold" episode where WW gives Bats a peck on the cheek after he tries to save her.

Yeah, that's one of those explanations I half-believe. You can certainly say you didn't intend on it (and I mostly believe him here), but what kind of fan response would you expect from a scene like that? You have to be REALLY naive to think fans wouldn't try to read into it.

(BTW, the presence of Martian Manhunter made that scene really hard to swallow).

[Mr. Holmes]

It's not unique to the DCAU though. Grant Morrison is my favorite Batman writer, and even his Batman is kind of a Mary Sue. More suave and access to resources than James Bond, more intelligent than Sherlock Holmes, more physically apt than Daredevil, etc.

I think it's just what the character has become inherently since the 80s. A whole generation of creators grew up reading Batman comics and this is the result.

[Lorendiac]

I think accusations of "Bat-god" are a little hyperbole, but Mary Sue is fairly accurate. Plus, the character didn't have any "real" flaws, at least not like some of the other characters. It was pretty obvious whom the creators liked the most.

Yeah, it was. I'm not sure if anyone noticed, but Batman is the very first hero seen in the first episode of JL and the very last character in-frame in the last episode of JLU. Then there's "Epilogue" which was almost the finale, but was a love-letter to everything that is the DCAU Batman.

A few things about that:

1. If the creators liked Batman better than any of the other founding members of the DCAU Justice League, that just strikes me as natural and inevitable. After all, how could anyone in his right mind possibly like any of the other six characters better than they liked Batman? (Not that I'm biased or anything! )

2. On the other hand, I thought "Epilogue" was terrible. I have zero faith in the idea that there are some special "Batman genes" which mean that only Bruce Wayne, or someone directly descended from him, could possibly do an adequate job of keeping the Batman legend alive while protecting future generations in Gotham City. Nor do I think it likely that Amanda Waller would be dumb enough to fall into the mental trap of believing such a thing. As an African-American, presumably descended from slaves who were brought over to the plantations of the New World way back when, she ought to be keenly aware of the fallacies in thinking "some rich white boy from a proud old family is Just Naturally Superior To Everybody Else, And His Descendants Will Be, Too!"

Wouldn't it be a heck of a lot simpler, if need be, to spend all that money on training a whole bunch of guys to be "Batman" material, and if one of them is unequal to a challenge -- perhaps dies in the line of duty -- the next man in line steps up to use his own skills and courage to keep the legend alive? (I think there was a story way, way back in the 1950s which revealed that Commissioner Gordon had already thought of that general approach on his own!)

[Aquacatlungfish]

Mary Sue. But to be honest, I rarely ever care for Batman in the Justice League. Pretty much a prime case of why I don't like him on there. He had good solo moments in the series but they really didn't do anything with him beyond Wonder Woman flirting with him (which I hated) in terms of a team dynamic. Unmasking aside, I'm starting to like Johns Batman in JL and him being buddies with Aquaman is one of those reasons. They needed more dynamic than that.

As for the Mary Sue angle, I don't mind Batman being smart and strong but DKR aside him having a good ol' round of fistycuffs with Superman is ridiculous (talking about comics generally). People always bitch about the Nolan version but it's one of the most human interpretations of him in a long time.

[Namtab]

2. On the other hand, I thought "Epilogue" was terrible. I have zero faith in the idea that there are some special "Batman genes" which mean that only Bruce Wayne, or someone directly descended from him, could possibly do an adequate job of keeping the Batman legend alive while protecting future generations in Gotham City. Nor do I think it likely that Amanda Waller would be dumb enough to fall into the mental trap of believing such a thing. As an African-American, presumably descended from slaves who were brought over to the plantations of the New World way back when, she ought to be keenly aware of the fallacies in thinking "some rich white boy from a proud old family is Just Naturally Superior To Everybody Else, And His Descendants Will Be, Too!"

Wouldn't it be a heck of a lot simpler, if need be, to spend all that money on training a whole bunch of guys to be "Batman" material, and if one of them is unequal to a challenge -- perhaps dies in the line of duty -- the next man in line steps up to use his own skills and courage to keep the legend alive? (I think there was a story way, way back in the 1950s which revealed that Commissioner Gordon had already thought of that general approach on his own!)

Er, sure, but I thinking of the other scenes in "Epilogue" -- the return of the Phantasm, Terry's Batman visually mirroring Manbat's scenes from "On Leather Wings," the retro-active continuity that Bruce possibly named his dog after that "Ace," etc. -- those were the "love-letters" to the DCAU Batman.

Sorry that you didn't like it, but as a Batman, and a DCAU Batman fan, I loved it.

[dupersuper]

A few things about that:

1. If the creators liked Batman better than any of the other founding members of the DCAU Justice League, that just strikes me as natural and inevitable. After all, how could anyone in his right mind possibly like any of the other six characters better than they liked Batman? (Not that I'm biased or anything! )

2. On the other hand, I thought "Epilogue" was terrible. I have zero faith in the idea that there are some special "Batman genes" which mean that only Bruce Wayne, or someone directly descended from him, could possibly do an adequate job of keeping the Batman legend alive while protecting future generations in Gotham City. Nor do I think it likely that Amanda Waller would be dumb enough to fall into the mental trap of believing such a thing. As an African-American, presumably descended from slaves who were brought over to the plantations of the New World way back when, she ought to be keenly aware of the fallacies in thinking "some rich white boy from a proud old family is Just Naturally Superior To Everybody Else, And His Descendants Will Be, Too!"

1. As some one whose favourite super hero is Superman: it's actually remarkably easy.

2. The scene with Ace on the swing was beautiful. Retconning Terry as Bruces son was silly.

[Punter23]

Yeah I don't like him. He was the overpowered character and he was not even powered. Everything had to be related to the Bat and he always had to be in the right. Best episodes were the ones without him

[Fenaris]

But in all fairness I loved every portrayal of him in that show. I think they didn't use him that often for a reason. But when they did, it was pure awesomeness.

[Vidocq]

You know, I agree, in retrospect, that he was Mary Stu-ish. It didn't really felt this way because while watching it I kept in mind that this was the same Batman as TAS and that had a lot of character to it. I already knew him any meaningful character development would be redundant, same with Superman (even though the last few arc were mostly his), specially considering you have other New 5 characters around. But yeah, on his own, JLU's Batman is kind of a Mary Stu.

Even though he was out of his league in a lot of episodes, they never did anything that was impossible and they explained how he figured stuff out very well. I don't recall a single lazy Bat Deduction in the show.

Besides maybe the "dark" part, wouldn't you say that the Brave and the Bold 'toon Batman, was also a Mary Sue/Marty Stu?

Oh God yes. Once the Green Lantern Guardians call for your help to train Guy Gardner and Captain Marvel laments you are not there while fighting the fking Penguin you can pretty much call yourself OPed. It was Fan service: The Show, but it reached the point that I could not evn enjoy it.