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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hulk_Is
    Aquaman has decompression that rivals even Bendis's best. It definitely kills the book for me. If it wasn't for my love of the character, I would drop this book like a hot potato.
    But for people who are not already die-hard fans of a character what is there to like in the New 52?

    I remember when I was about 5 getting a Superman annual which had a crossover tale with Adam Strange where (ultimately) Superman saved two worlds by pushing the Earth a few inches out of its orbit. Supes struggled and sweated with the feat over multiple panels. I thought this was the most amazing thing ever at the time.

    Fast forward to the New 52 where Superman benches the weight of the Earth for 5 days straight producing one drop of sweat.

    What purpose did this feat serve?
    Who benefitted from this feat (who was saved by it?)
    Where was the drama?
    Why include this in the comic?

    The old feat had drama, a purpose, a reason and Superman had to struggle.

    The new feat had no drama, no purpose, no reason and Superman didn't need to struggle.

    Why should I care one iota about this new Superman?

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91
    That'd odd, because actually one of my complaints on Justice League is that I felt some of the stories were a little bit too compressed. For example, I felt that the Cheetah arc deserved more than two issues. The ending of that story just felt rushed and too much stuff was thrown at us in that final issue, not to mention that it made Cheetah look to be a weak antagonist. I know that she supposedly wanted to be caught, but she could have at least put up a good fight to throw suspicion off.
    I'm sure it will act as a springboard for an eventual longer arc...luckily I won't be there to read it.

    Anyway, looking at Justice League, I don't think its as decompressed as you think. Okay, the first arc was six issues long (the longest so far), but then after that, we got two self-contained issues, then a four-issue arc, then the aforementioned two-issue Cheetah arc, and now the Throne of Atlantis arc, which is set to conclude in Justice League #17. So, if we do the math: 17 issues divided by 6 different story arcs, we get an average length of 2.8 issues an arc, which is really not decompressed at all.
    I actually agree with you. I reread over the issues and realised (the main reason) why I wasn't enjoying it. There's no drama or consequence to (virtually) any of the events, most of which are simply setups for later stories 'down the pipe'.

    Issue #7 is a great example of this. They take down Amazo in 3 pages (2 of which are splash pages). No one gets hurt, no one is in trouble, its all too easy.

    Now that said, I'll look past the first 6 issue arc for a number of reasons.

    1. They need to bring the team together and that takes more space than normal.
    2. Obligatory team infighting.
    3. A threat (parademon) which escalates (lots of parademons) which escalates again (Darkseid), so good build up.
    4. Superman IS in peril...so there is drama in this one.

    But I am trying to picture those 6 issues as a Justice League movie...and to be honest it would make a rubbish movie as written. In fact as written, it just looks like a setup for another story rather than a story in its own right.

    Issue #7 was inconsequential, Issue #8 was humourous but not much of a story.

    In fact all the Justice League stories save one (Graves) have simply been setups where nothing is resolved. Only the Graves story is actually resolved to a conclusion.

    I think the same has been true for Aquaman. There have been three major arcs (The Trench, The Others, and Throne of Atlantis), plus the standalone issues (#5 and #6), which makes for an average length of 3.2 issues an arc.
    I'll reread over the Aquaman issues and see what my main problem was.

    However, there are legitimate cases where I do see decompression, but the series that I notice it on (Wonder Woman, Batman, Animal Man, and Swamp Thing), I really don't mind it because the writing on these titles is so fantastic. Plus, while these titles may have long-running sagas, there are still distinguishable arcs within them. I'm gonna use the example of Wonder Woman here, where I can see specific endings to smaller arcs, but its still taking place within a larger, overarching saga.
    Glad those other titles are working out for you.

    Besides, I think the decompression at DC is really nothing compared to what happens in some other science-fiction or adventure media. The best example of that would probably be anime, where up to 70-100 episodes can be dedicated to a single story-arc.
    Manga is cheaper than DC/Marvel. You still get more story for your money despite decompression.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hehey
    Read John Layman's Detective Comics (his run starts on issue #13), itl be more to your liking.
    I appreciate the feedback but I am really not into Batman at all. Thanks though.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099
    When I read the wave of #1s I was shocked with the decompression. Omac and Superman were nice surprises in that sense. Even Action was decompressed for a Morrison book (although it reads well as a whole).

    A lot of fans don't remember or know decent pacing, ideally like we had around the late 80s. I think we hear a lot from people that started in recent years or with thenew 52, which obviously stick around because they don't mind it or because they don't know better. The prices are an insult for the amount of story we get.
    I think I remember reading that adjusted for Inflation comics (based on the prices of the 60's) would be about $1. Therefore a modern (6 issue) story arc costs 2300% more than a 1960's story arc.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny P. Sartre
    Except comics are poor not, just DC and Marvel.

    And also, decompression can be a pain because most creators don't know how to use it; though when used correctly, it adds a of nice layer of depth to a story.
    I agree with this. Decompression can be used well. But does it need to be used almost line-wide?

    In my opinion many creators fail at the basics of storytelling and fall back on the crutch of decompression to mask this.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sure Yaa
    after the first volume of flash it moves real fast (heh) to the annual, it is awesome, so many rogues in so little time, but it gets slow again but still good

    marvel seems to have more of the one shot type of comics with one time team ups and hawkeye
    I'll definitely check out Flash, thanks for the feedback.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Upper_Krust View Post
    But for people who are not already die-hard fans of a character what is there to like in the New 52?

    I remember when I was about 5 getting a Superman annual which had a crossover tale with Adam Strange where (ultimately) Superman saved two worlds by pushing the Earth a few inches out of its orbit. Supes struggled and sweated with the feat over multiple panels. I thought this was the most amazing thing ever at the time.

    Fast forward to the New 52 where Superman benches the weight of the Earth for 5 days straight producing one drop of sweat.

    What purpose did this feat serve?
    Who benefitted from this feat (who was saved by it?)
    Where was the drama?
    Why include this in the comic?

    The old feat had drama, a purpose, a reason and Superman had to struggle.

    The new feat had no drama, no purpose, no reason and Superman didn't need to struggle.

    Why should I care one iota about this new Superman?
    I think it's important to be clear, decompression can be handy and very, very cool. Take the three way fight at the end of The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, that's as decompressed as it gets, and just as emotional and awesome; however, in a TV show you can only do that so often before cheapening the resource. That's the problem, lousy writers don't know how to master resources, they just see something cool and apply the copypaste, wash, rinse, repeat. (And they do that with shock value, nostagia and other resources as well). I'm sure Japanese fiction like Dragon Ball or Saint Seiya have one root influence in which there were epic moments achieved through slow pacing, however, by the second time they start pulling the energy of the universe (or whatever) in slow mo you start rolling your eyes. Splash pages are aces under the writer's sleaves, they can only pull so many so often before the audience turns the table and shoots them. In JL Johns started to pull a splash per punch... that doesn't really work. It looks like a heartless business formula: more splash pages per issue = less work = more "excitement".
    Last edited by Rafa-Rivas-2099; 01-31-2013 at 03:21 PM.
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny P. Sartre View Post
    Check out:
    Bad Medicine
    BulletProof Coffin
    The Massive
    Fell
    Planetary
    Local
    The Manhattan Projects
    Saga (has some but overall each single issue gives you a good amount to chew on)
    Northlanders
    The Creep
    Multiple Warheads
    Prophet (starts off with some decompression but moves away from it fast)
    Popeye
    ...Popeye? Is it particularly well written or what's the deal?
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

  9. #39
    Tai'shar Manetheren Jadenewt's Avatar
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    To me splash pages should be reserved for seminal or critical moments. The recent Invincible that was splash page after splash pages annoyed me to no end. I feel that decompression is totally out of control in the American Comic Market. The first arc in JL should have been told in at max three books instead of a five book arc. Look how the story was handled in Earth-2 it was much more effective (though since then the book has experienced a level of decompression as well) I would love to see a return to more one or two issue story lines with the major arc being the exception as opposed to the rule for most books.
    D-Deadman! You killed Deadman!!

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jadenewt View Post
    To me splash pages should be reserved for seminal or critical moments. The recent Invincible that was splash page after splash pages annoyed me to no end. I feel that decompression is totally out of control in the American Comic Market. The first arc in JL should have been told in at max three books instead of a five book arc. Look how the story was handled in Earth-2 it was much more effective (though since then the book has experienced a level of decompression as well) I would love to see a return to more one or two issue story lines with the major arc being the exception as opposed to the rule for most books.
    Exactly!

    The first ark is kind of an intro with an open end, a taste of the worst thing the JLA could face, which is fine, the problem is that that sot of thing can be done in 3 issues. The specific story they told feels like a quickie, not a 5 issue epic.
    Characters: Elongated Man, Batman, Satellite JLA, Super Buddies, Sandman, Swamp Thing
    Writers: Moore, Gaiman, Cooke, Giffen/DeMatteis, Miller, Dini, Morrison, Waid, Meltzer, McDuffie, Barr, Englehart

  11. #41
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
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    When you get less story you get less value for your dollar. It's a pain to wait a month for the equivelent of the 2-5 pages of a novel.

    Anime like Dragonball Z are famous for doing this, but that's because they were made at the same time as the manga and had to wait until the manga came out to move the story, so they needed fillers to keep from pulling ahead. I recommend Dragonball Kai because it really compresses the dbz story and takes out almost all of the filler. In less than 20 episodes they're already on Namek. Though the training for the saiyans is something I'd call well used decompression. There was a year to cover, and showing what Gohan and the fighters on the lookout had to go through was good. Didn't like the Goku snake way filler though.

    I don't comsider Action Comics to be badly decompressed. I feel like it does cover a lot per issue.

  12. #42
    Veteran Member glennsim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Upper_Krust View Post
    I remember when I was about 5 getting a Superman annual which had a crossover tale with Adam Strange where (ultimately) Superman saved two worlds by pushing the Earth a few inches out of its orbit. Supes struggled and sweated with the feat over multiple panels. I thought this was the most amazing thing ever at the time.

    Fast forward to the New 52 where Superman benches the weight of the Earth for 5 days straight producing one drop of sweat.

    What purpose did this feat serve?
    Who benefitted from this feat (who was saved by it?)
    Where was the drama?
    Why include this in the comic?
    1. To show how strong Superman is.
    2. Nobody. Not everything Superman does is to save people. He has a life.
    3. It wasn't intended to be a dramatic scene. It was a "slice-of-life" bit.
    4. To give some more information on Superman. It also introduced the scientist character.

    If Superman actually pushed the Earth a few inches out of orbit, I imagine there would be horrible consequences for the Earth. Having him do the same thing but just under "laboratory conditions" albeit sci-fi B.S. laboratory conditions is really less like something a 5-year-old would come up with.
    The DC relaunch was successful and was executed in what was most likely the best way it could given restrictions we wouldn't know about. No, your idea wouldn't have worked. Now move on.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099
    I think it's important to be clear, decompression can be handy and very, very cool. Take the three way fight at the end of The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, that's as decompressed as it gets, and just as emotional and awesome;
    True but there was so much great build up to get to that epic climax. That movie basically has everything INCLUDING one of the greatest soundtracks of all time. It didn't feel like decompression for its own sake, it was a construction of events leading us to the edge of our seats and then the director forcing us to wait for dramatic effect.

    Most modern comics use decompression without building any drama to begin with.

    however, in a TV show you can only do that so often before cheapening the resource. That's the problem, lousy writers don't know how to master resources, they just see something cool and apply the copypaste, wash, rinse, repeat. (And they do that with shock value, nostagia and other resources as well). I'm sure Japanese fiction like Dragon Ball or Saint Seiya have one root influence in which there were epic moments achieved through slow pacing, however, by the second time they start pulling the energy of the universe (or whatever) in slow mo you start rolling your eyes.
    Agreed.

    Splash pages are aces under the writer's sleaves, they can only pull so many so often before the audience turns the table and shoots them. In JL Johns started to pull a splash per punch... that doesn't really work. It looks like a heartless business formula: more splash pages per issue = less work = more "excitement".
    The whole prevailance of badly used splash pages in the industry is crippling.

    Lets just take a look at Justice League random issues:

    #1: (Total 4 pages of splashes)

    Double Page Spread of Batman avoiding some helicopter gunfire.
    Splash Page of Green Lantern reveal
    Splash page of Superman reveal

    #3: (7 1/2)

    1.5 Page Splash of Wonder Woman walking down the street
    Almost a full Splash of WW and Steve about to be attacked by Parademons
    Wide Splash of the League in action vs. Parademons
    Double Page Spread of WW fighting Parademons
    Splash page of Cyborg 'sensing' Darkseid
    Splash page of Aquaman reveal

    #6: (7)

    Double Page Spread of League vs. darkseid
    Splash Page of Superman being tortured
    Splash Page of WW stabbing Darkseid in the eye
    Double Page Spread of Supes punching Darkseid
    Splash Page of Cyborg detonating a boom tube (or something)

    #7: (5)

    Splash Page of weird creatures jumping at civilians
    Double Page Spread of Weird monsters being fought by the League
    Splash Page of Flash/GL attacking a monster
    Splash page of the rest of the league attacking the same monster

    If it were me, I would limit each (22 page) comic to maybe three splash pages, with a double page spread for the most important point in each entire story arc.

    The Justice League seems to be averaging about 5 splash pages per 20 pages.

  14. #44
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    [QUOTE=glennsim]1. To show how strong Superman is.[quote]

    The answer to which we still don't know, plus it will be contradicted every other issue, and its even further contradicted in conjunction with the Justice League.

    How long can Wonder Woman bench the planet Earth for?

    2. Nobody. Not everything Superman does is to save people. He has a life.
    Lets call it what it was...Superman Fanboy masturbation.

    3. It wasn't intended to be a dramatic scene. It was a "slice-of-life" bit.
    What was it relevant to though?

    4. To give some more information on Superman.
    Irrelevant and contradictory information.

    It also introduced the scientist character.
    ...whose relevance to an actual plot is so far ambiguous.

    If Superman actually pushed the Earth a few inches out of orbit, I imagine there would be horrible consequences for the Earth.
    I glossed over the details of the story which involved some threat had swopped Earth with Adam Strange's world and Superman had to (ultimately) push it to counteract this.

    Having him do the same thing but just under "laboratory conditions" albeit sci-fi B.S. laboratory conditions is really less like something a 5-year-old would come up with.
    I bet you can't wait for the next "Superman at the gym" issue.

  15. #45
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    In fairness, there's a difference between a decompressed story and a long story. I found the Aquaman story "the others" to be pretty decompressed but something like Animal Man is just a long, big story.
    Reading: GL, GLC, JSA, Hellblazer, Booster Gold, Jonah Hex, Doom Patrol, Supergirl, Powergirl, Transformers, Vengeance of the Moon Knight

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