Superman #16 Discussion/Spoilers

[stephens2177]

But why is he being so antagonistic to a person that has be and is still saving his life? Why would anyone do that? It wasn't that bad here--in fact he came off more as the voice of the comic book reader here with him asking about why Superman would even bring all of this dangerous stuff to earth. It's a valid question and probably a plot point that will be used in the future. But him picking a fight with Batman like that out of nearly nowhere was sorta dumb--I mean come on.

And just like with the Superman confrontation Superboy just gets shut up by someone who understands the situation more (Wonder Woman and Batman).

But I do get the reason behind such out burst and his great characterization in issue 15--it's to show the view of the reader among these gods because if you think about it Superboy is oddly the most normal out of everyone in these books right now. He also has a very high want for self preservation so it's understandable.


If you look back at issue 15 you'll notice that it was the 1st time that us the reader and Superboy ever saw the current Lex and the Lex Superman dynamic which is beyond anything that Superboy has encountered thus far--he's in a room with gods and he's a normal person in comparison and he's hurt that was the most vulnerable we've ever seen him and it was nice and humbling. I'm not saying that should be a constant but it's needed to make a real character and a "real boy" as you put it. No "real boy" is all fast talking one liners all the time.


He was just a bit annoying but I could see why it was used for the story and character.

Edited

Ok first she is on h'els side,you know the guy who is gonna destroy the earth,kon was using common sense here,and took her out,he knows she is very powerful,and he k knows she is the enemy.

SB should be ripping into batman,everyone kf batmans plans have failed and badly,ko had every right to say what he did.

Wonder woman just came off as a protective girlfriend sticking up for her idiot boyfriend,when a smart kid uses more of that common sense,seems none kf the trinity used any,and dont like it when someone points it out to them.

Lex does need to be built up,atleast in kons eyes if DC is going to try to make us believe kon would care on any level that his buman dna came from lex,if not he wouldnt care and just laugh him off.

[Sacred Knight]

No, Superboy should not be ripping into everyone. Everyone's trying. H'El's just been countering. Superboy's been owned by H'El just the same, its no one's fault. The plan didn't work exactly as intended but your in the thick of shit now, nothing else to do but regroup and work together again. So Batman is in the right to basically just shrug off his complaining. And I don't see what's idiotic about Superman wanting to preserve various lifeforms, even dangerous ones, in a secure environment.

[stephens2177]

No, Superboy should not be ripping into everyone. Everyone's trying. H'El's just been countering. Superboy's been owned by H'El just the same, its no one's fault. The plan didn't work exactly as intended but your in the thick of shit now, nothing else to do but regroup and work together again. So Batman is in the right to basically just shrug off his complaining. And I don't see what's idiotic about Superman wanting to preserve various lifeforms, even dangerous ones, in a secure environment.

batman shouldnt act like he knows what he is doing when he hasnt executed one plan that has worked.batman was right to shrug off kons complaining,but kon did have the right to complain also.
if superman created his fortress on the moon and had shitloads of things that were dangerous there wouldnt be a problem, ht he had them tucked away on earth,the planet he cares for so much.

[Conway]

First; Did Lobdell read Morrison's AC? Because in the current DCU the Krypton Science Council didn't believe Jor-El about the destruction of the planet. They even tried to stop Kal from escaping the planet. I'm hoping it's all BS created in H'el's twisted mind, but you never can tell with Lobdell.

Second; Is Kara really that stupid? I mean she playing the outcast teenager being manipulated into thinking she wants it, so it isn't totally unbelievable. I just think she's supposed to become one of the greatest intellects on the planet but she can't figure it out even after H'ek (the Church would prefer it if we use this spelling) basically tells her he's lying.

[drakeon]

Essentially sucker punching someone for no real reason is funny?

No real reason? For one, she is currently siding with the crazy emo guy that wants to blow up the earth, and two:





She had it coming!

[USERNAME TAKEN]

It was decent.

Not spectacular and I personally haven't enjoyed this H'el on Earth crossover all that much.

That Oracle thing looks pretty bad ass though.

[Auguste Dupin]

First; Did Lobdell read Morrison's AC? Because in the current DCU the Krypton Science Council didn't believe Jor-El about the destruction of the planet. They even tried to stop Kal from escaping the planet. I'm hoping it's all BS created in H'el's twisted mind, but you never can tell with Lobdell.

Second; Is Kara really that stupid? I mean she playing the outcast teenager being manipulated into thinking she wants it, so it isn't totally unbelievable. I just think she's supposed to become one of the greatest intellects on the planet but she can't figure it out even after H'ek (the Church would prefer it if we use this spelling) basically tells her he's lying.

First: two things. One: when did the Council try to stop Kal El from escaping the Planet? It's not in any of my AC issues. Two: All we have so far is H'El pretending it happened that way, H'El the guy lies about everything and acts as if leaving Kara behind wouldn't kill her. It's obviously a lie. Don't believe me? Check the thread called "Superman prepares for H'El on Earth" which shows panels of the following issues where Oracle shows Superman what apparently really happened (we don't have much so far, appart from Jor El and H'El yelling at each other. But it supports the idea H'El isn't telling the truth).

Second: I don't recall anyone saying she's especially smart, and acting all emotionnal and puching the wrong person is something she's been doing since issue 1. If anything, her flashbacks indicate she wasn't a very good student. So yes, she's.....the outcast teenager manipulated into thinking she wants it (well, she really wants it, it's just that she's not aware of the implications).

[Sacred Knight]

You know, on first glance I thought that was Jor-El and H'El in a shouting match too, but on closer glance I think its Zor-El. Still though I agree with the core theory though that H'El's remembering his past wrong.

Only thing that annoys me about Supergirl's role here is that she has never asked how the device works. She finally got close this issue, but still, it should have happened earlier and could have been so easily. If she were to have asked, and he just lied, it would have worked so much better than just skiriting around her asking questions entirely for convenience's sake. Her asking questions early on that H'El skillfully lies about would have been just as convenient to the plot and wouldn't have made Kara look as dense as she's going to end up looking coming out of this.

[Aravis]

No real reason? For one, she is currently siding with the crazy emo guy that wants to blow up the earth, and two:


She had it coming!

You know. Flash "forgot" to mention the "blowing up the Earth" part, instead just went on and on repeating "We're good, H'el is bad", giving no real reasons as to why. And Superman? Instead of mentioning it, he says he'll fight her if she tries to stop him.

It's like, shouldn't that be one of the first things you mention, when it's clear Kara isn't following H'el out of malice? Attacking her kinda... Doesn't make you look good, and only reinforces her belief in H'el. Superboy attacking her was kinda stupid. They should realise by now force can't stop H'el, but he seems to need Kara. So what do you do? 1) Tell kara your concerns about destroying the earth, or 2) Run in guns blazing, attacking everything in sight?

That Both Superman and Superboy choose to do 2) doesn't speak highly of their intellects. All they needed to do was to fly in there and tell Kara what they think will happen...

[Auguste Dupin]

You know. Flash "forgot" to mention the "blowing up the Earth" part, instead just went on and on repeating "We're good, H'el is bad", giving no real reasons as to why. And Superman? Instead of mentioning it, he says he'll fight her if she tries to stop him.

It's like, shouldn't that be one of the first things you mention, when it's clear Kara isn't following H'el out of malice? Attacking her kinda... Doesn't make you look good, and only reinforces her belief in H'el. Superboy attacking her was kinda stupid. They should realise by now force can't stop H'el, but he seems to need Kara. So what do you do? 1) Tell kara your concerns about destroying the earth, or 2) Run in guns blazing, attacking everything in sight?

That Both Superman and Superboy choose to do 2) doesn't speak highly of their intellects. All they needed to do was to fly in there and tell Kara what they think will happen...

Well, considering the last time Supergirl and Superman interacted, "Kal El " (actually H'El in disguise) beated the crap out of her, basically saying " I have enough of your nonsense, little brat, so behave or begone", I'm not sure she would believe him, even if he did tell her the truth.
But I do agree Lobdell should have taken the time to make one of them tell her. After all, since she isn't going to believe them, it wasn't going to drastically change how the story happens.
(With that said, I found the way Superboy grabbed and by the hair and slammed her on the ground to be sort of funny).

[Auguste Dupin]

You know, on first glance I thought that was Jor-El and H'El in a shouting match too, but on closer glance I think its Zor-El. Still though I agree with the core theory though that H'El's remembering his past wrong.

Only thing that annoys me about Supergirl's role here is that she has never asked how the device works. She finally got close this issue, but still, it should have happened earlier and could have been so easily. If she were to have asked, and he just lied, it would have worked so much better than just skiriting around her asking questions entirely for convenience's sake. Her asking questions early on that H'El skillfully lies about would have been just as convenient to the plot and wouldn't have made Kara look as dense as she's going to end up looking coming out of this.

No, I'm pretty sure it's Jor-El he's arguing with. He has his suit with the Sun on it, and Zor El has some sort of beard. It's definitively Jor El.

EDIT: Concerning the second part of your post.....apparently, Kara has been asking how it worked because she says at one point: "You told me the Star Chamber only needs to siphon off the excess solar and electromagnetic energy between the Solar System's planets".

[Aravis]

Well, considering the last time Supergirl and Superman interacted, "Kal El " (actually H'El in disguise) beated the crap out of her, basically saying " I have enough of your nonsense, little brat, so behave or begone", I'm not sure she would believe him, even if he did tell her the truth.
But I do agree Lobdell should have taken the time to make one of them tell her. After all, since she isn't going to believe them, it wasn't going to drastically change how the story happens.

Well, it's pretty clear she's not antagonistic, and she's pretty gentle and nice when she asks Superman to stop. Which made his "Let go of me or I'll fight you!" pretty stupid. Also, in this issue, she asked if the power source from Kandor was enough... And then H'el starts talking about sacrifices. And after that, kara never gets the chance to ask what exactly H'el means. So, if Superman (or Superboy, or the Flash) had said somethhing about it, I think it's obvious she'd have questioned H'el more thoroughly. As is, Superman, the Flash and Superboy have acted extremely counterproductively.

And really, attacking H'el direct on, when they KNOW his teleportation powers. *shakes head*

[Auguste Dupin]

Well, it's pretty clear she's not antagonistic, and she's pretty gentle and nice when she asks Superman to stop. Which made his "Let go of me or I'll fight you!" pretty stupid. Also, in this issue, she asked if the power source from Kandor was enough... And then H'el starts talking about sacrifices. And after that, kara never gets the chance to ask what exactly H'el means. So, if Superman (or Superboy, or the Flash) had said somethhing about it, I think it's obvious she'd have questioned H'el more thoroughly. As is, Superman, the Flash and Superboy have acted extremely counterproductively.

And really, attacking H'el direct on, when they KNOW his teleportation powers. *shakes head*

Well, actually.... When you know a guy has the power to teleport you mid sentence, it kinda make sense to try to take him out before he has the time to teleport you rather than wasting your time arguing with someone who isn't on your side, knowing the bad guy will port you out of the Fortress before you can finish.
I mean, if you think H'El is going to let Superman finish to explain when he can just get rid of him.....you're not getting the guy enough credit.

[Sacred Knight]

No, I wasn't saying I think HE'l is arguing with Zor-El, I'm saying I think that scene is Jor-El fighting with Zor-El. I don't think H'El's there at all. That Jor-El is the guy on the left is very clear, but the one on the right I just don't think looks like H'El, he looks older and he's got the Zor-El sideburns. I think that "shard" is depicting the tension between the two brothers over Zor's controversial experiments.

[Coyote2010]

What are the World Killers?